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Heroes Community > Turban Tribunal > Thread: S P A M
Thread: S P A M This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted December 09, 2003 10:26 AM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 9 Dec 2003

Spam in the Heroes Community

There is a definite problem with spamming in Heroes Community at the moment, and there has been for over a year now. While I try not to dwell on it, and focus on my own forums such as the Heroes 5 Altar of Wishes, and the Lands of Axeoth, there is no denying that it does exist. At the moment, spam has settled down slightly, and I have seen the Tavern more active than this on previous occasions. There were times when all the posts on the first page of the tavern were within 6 hours, and the 1 day spanned 3-4 pages. Now, however, (maybe this thread helped) there are 2 days in one page of the Tavern. It is undeniable that the situation has improved from early in the year, and also, as an adverse effect, does still overshadow the on-topic, relevant, and more quality topics in the Library and Altar, especially.

If I remember correctly, in slight excess of a year ago, a then notorious member of the community, RedSoxFan3, made a proposal to close down the Library of Enlightenment. He was an avid spammer at the time, and felt that the Library of Enlightenment did not provide enough discussion to continue. I was outraged at this comment. (For any of you who would like to see the thread, this is the link: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=6693. We did actually relate to spam, because RedSoxFan3 believed that the Tavern was the 'Sun' of Heroes Community, and the planets (Library, ToH, Lands, Altar) all revolved around it. This was not how I saw it. I actually wanted to close the Tavern, and with Nidhgrin, we created the idea for the Volcanic Wastelands. Although the Tavern wasn't closed, there was now a place for all the meaningless threads to be heaped.

It was then when spam was at its peak, and it was generally up to Djive and myself to keep the ontopic boards somewhat active. This wasn't so easy, since whoever came and registered went straight to the Tavern, and contributed there, and the ontopic areas werent given a chance.

The reason I loathe spam is solely becuase it detracts from ontopic discussions, and lures more people to participate in more word games, RPGs, and other offtopic activities. The reason Heroes Community was created was to provide a vent for discussion of the majestic Heroes Series primarily, and then, once in a while, have a chat with some other members in the community. When I first joined, the board was dominated by the likes of Preserver, Incubus, LordPaul, El_Diablo, HSanders, Wyvern, and others. They did their best to make the Altar active. The Tavern didn't have more than about 5,000 posts when I joined. The Altar had approximately 10,000, I believe. Spam was not prevalent, and the only people who posted offtopic were really Murphy, Incubus, Lord_Woock, and Shae_Trielle. All of these people also contributed to the ontopic discussion, so there was somewhat of an equilibrium achieved.

These days, however, spam is a much larger problem than it was. I for one, can easily tell. I have been here for nearly 2.5 years, and when the Tavern increases from 5,000 to 51,000, and the Altar from 10,000 - 17,000 in the same time period, you know that there is something awry.The Tavern is flooded, and has been for a while now, with threads such as:
Let's have War! by RedSoxFan3 - 1 week old amassed 50 replies
Three Word Stories!!! by Kyuu - 2 month old amassed 250+ replies
Word Association Game Part...Who Knows 2 by UndeadLord - >1 month old - 350 replies
Run on Sentences - RedSoxFan3
Does Time Truly Exist - Frostwolf
These are the sign of our times. Now, we compare this with similar threads from the Altar, Lands, and Library.
HC Exclusive - The Archer H5 Sketch Art by Valeriy - 3 days old - 25 replies. This is one of the most important threads in a while. Without so much extraneous action in the Tavern, I don't find it impossible to have amassed 70 replies in those three days.
My Assembled H5 Ideas by Marelt_Ekiran - .5 months old - 7 replies. An excellent collection of thoughts and ideas, and only 7 replies in twice as many days.
Compare Homm to Age of Wonders/Disciples by Hunnawanna - .5 months old, 6 replies.
Mapmaking Contest in Crypt of Maps by Ururam-Tururam - 2 months old, 5 replies, by the same two people. I would have thought a thread of such importance would have got more replies than this.
Heroes 2 Help by Nidhgrin - 3 days old, 0 replies. Surprisingly, nobody is able to help our former moderator who gave so much to the community in that position.
You can now see that the differences between the ontopic and offtopic forums are immense. It does really come down to one element, spam. This 'spam' is overabundant in the tavern, creating so many replies and not allowing others to explore other topics in more apt areas. The Tavern with spam has literally monopolised Heroes Community, and only an extremely significant event like the Heroes V designer visiting the site can attract more people back to the Heroes discussion.

Signatures and Custom Status
Signatures such as this one annoy me somewhat:
"Today's spam is brought to you by Woock"
Statements like this only contribute to the dominance of spam in the community. It also professes that spam is something to revere and praise, and also perceived as 'cool'. It is encouraging more people to do this, when, in fact, the motive of having Quality Points is to encourage people to post more worthful topics. However, many dismiss these red stars as 'red spots on the screen which mean little at all'.
"Ultimate Spammer"
The model for which all spammers try to attain greatness in the spam world. Used by the top poster, Lord_Woock, it is making many of the same statements as the above.
"Anti-Spamming Campaign"
While this does not annoy me at all, it does indicate that there a problem with spamming. This is used by one of the most irksome spammers of all time, Soccerfeva, who has changed is ways to fight against spam.

For the questions that Sir_Stiven posed:

What is Spam

I must agree with Sir_Stiven, in that, spam is merely a mode of transport in attaining yellow stars. It is a method to increase post count solely, and possibly also to be respected as writing 'quality spam', which I refuse to believe there is such a thing. Spam is generally a sentence, or a few words that try to make a statement in the topic, or to sound as asinine as possible. However hard people try to contribute to the topic using spam, it rarely works, and is perceived by other non-spammers as another post to increase the thread's post count or their own. It has very little meaning and could be deleted and no-one would notice. I do classify 'chitchat'  as it is rated, as spam. Although, it does depend on what basis. If the chitchat is like that in Attack Iraq, then it is a good offtopic discussion, but, if it is merely talking about an offtopic event in very brief detail without sticking to the topic, then it is spam in my opinion. I must confess that I am probably perceived as the furthest outsider in this topic.

Why do members have a tendency to spam?

Indeed an easy question, which has a similar answer to the first. Spammers crave yellow stars. They are also in constant battle for having more posts than another spammer. Then also having competitions to see who can make the most posts in a day, who has the highest posts per day average, and others. Additionally, spammers want themselves to be viewed as a good spammer, and create topics which have high post counts. I agree with Khaelo in that the title of a 'spammer' or a 'God of Spam' has become a needlessly lauded title. Spammers view being called this as a symbol of being recognised and also standing out as one of the more elite spammers. Spammers do try, on some occassions, but only to make their one sentence more unforgettable.

Is spam always a bad thing?

Yes, I believe so. Whatever quality spam may exist (I doubt it) it still does shift the focus from more venerable and meaninful discussions about the game, its tournaments, its sequels, and predecessors, and places the spotlight on spam and other elements of life. While a small amount of this is healthy, it should not overshadow the next largest forum, the ToH, 50,000 to 20,000. Spamming also is prohibited in the FAQ, and yet it runs rampant. It blatantly defies Heroes Community customs and rules, and has no relevance as to why the community was created. Spam is perceived as cool and that is why more people do such a thing. Also, many people cannot be bothering posting half-decent posts to do with Heroes of Might and Magic, so they just find spamming as a quick alternative. I noticed that Gerdash did not really come here in times of spam, but now he is a regular member in the Altar, I must thank him for breathing life into the area once more.

Can spam be contributive in any way to this message board?

Not at all. The Tavern needs some sort of posting base, but not spammers. They make the Tavern more of a 'junk area', but that it why the wastelands were created, and while it has alleviated some of the dirtyness I once associated with the Tavern, it is still a place for spammers to congregate. The posting sprees these spammers often go on detract immensly from the Heroes discussing community, which I cannot re-iterate enough. If spammers could cease their addictions to post so often and frequently in a short amount of time I would be grateful, since it would restore some balance to the community, unlike the 40% 5% 5% 10% 10% 10% 10% 5% 5% split we have at the moment. It is not a balanced community. We should be focusing on playing Heroes 3 & 4, and busying ourselves in preparing for Heroes V, not posting spam on the Tavern, which spammers have been doing for almost two years. I am wondering when the fun will be extinguished in Word Association games, the lowest form of spam, the quickest way to attract posters, and the fastest way to attain posts and yellow stars.

How can spam be dealt with

I'm not a genius on these topics, so my suggestions probably won't be favourable to many of the members of the community. If you are a moderator, the best thing to do would be to delete the offending spam material. I would always be on the scout for spam in my forum, even though the vast majority occurs in the Tavern. If I were a Tavern moderator, then I would most likely remove threads such as these:
http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=3&TID=10278
http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=3&TID=10599
http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=3&TID=10054
http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=3&TID=10661
http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=3&TID=10787
http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=3&TID=10767
http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=3&TID=10687
http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=3&TID=10756
The above threads are on the first page, and really should and could be deleted within around 50 posts. I would discourage people from creating word games, and other new, seemingly creative ones such as 'run on sentences', 'the person above you' et cetera. There are multitudinous other miserable and ill-fated spam haven-type threads on the next page, and the barrage just continues the further back you go. The amount of spam is unrelenting. If it were up to me (others would thank God it isn't) I would delete the Tavern, and not replace it at all. The fundamental parts of the Tavern have already been split up, that is, the Wastelands, Bards Glade, and the Other Side of the Monitor. I view the Tavern as superfluous, and a breeding ground for upcoming spammers, and the area of battle for established ones. The Tavern should be deleted, and this would cause some to leave. However, people like Lord_Woock would stay for the love of the community, since he's been here so long and does participate in ontopic discussions. I cannot speak the same way for many others, i'm afraid.

Final Thoughts on Spam

Spamming in the community has gone to far, and has forced people to leave on some occassions. Jondifool and Nidhgrin being some victims of the spamming frenzy, among other things. It can be eliminated, but only if we have the co-operation of both the offendors and the Heroes of Order to halt it. Spam cannot contribute in any way to the Heroes Community, and really only creates more divisions and more posts for the Tavern, and decreases the amount of posts in Heroes related boards. Spammers have lost true sight of why the community was created. It is emphasised by one word within it. Heroes Community.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.

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Lord_Woock
Lord_Woock


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
posted December 09, 2003 05:36 PM

If it makes HC at least a tiny bit better, then I shall indeed change my custom status and try and lose the God of Spam title, too. And if for some strange twist of fate I ever become a moderator, I will do my best to help fight the spam of HC.
____________
Yolk and God bless.
---
My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!

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Khaelo
Khaelo


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
posted December 09, 2003 07:41 PM

<-- frustrated

At this point, I wonder if anything is going to come of this conversation.  

There's a limited amount that non-spamming members of the community can do about the problem, aside from talk about how much we dislike spam.  Quite frankly, I see only a few spamming members giving more than lip service to changing their behavior.  Changing custom statuses and signatures is great, but those are just a symptom, not a cause, of the problem.  As to the moderation, those mods most willing to combat spam preside over the forums least favored by spammers.  Coincidence?  Hardly.  On the other hand, there's at least one other mod who not only doesn't discourage spam but tends to produce it.  That sends mixed signals.

Quote:
It can be eliminated, but only if we have the co-operation of both the offendors and the Heroes of Order to halt it.

An excellent summary of the problem alluded to throughout this thread.  Unfortunately, I don't believe we have *enough* co-operation to make a difference.  Some people, offenders and Heroes of Order both, just don't seem to care.  

The really active discussions about Heroes V design are currently over on places like the Round Table forum and not here.  The Hydra's post is a good explaination for why.  The character of Heroes Community has changed.
____________
 Cleverly
disguised as a responsible adult

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Lord_Woock
Lord_Woock


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
posted December 09, 2003 07:48 PM

Quote:
As to the moderation, those mods most willing to combat spam preside over the forums least favored by spammers.  Coincidence?  Hardly.


Why not make me a Tavern mod? I promise to change my ways
____________
Yolk and God bless.
---
My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!

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consis
consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted December 09, 2003 08:27 PM

Total Agreement

I couldn't agree with you more Hydra.You are fighting the good fight.You are a moderator that must battle this carelessness with unending nerves of steel.If people donot say it enough: Thankyou for your diligence in the fight against spam.
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I

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Lord_Woock
Lord_Woock


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
posted December 09, 2003 08:29 PM

Since when is he a moderator?
____________
Yolk and God bless.
---
My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted December 10, 2003 02:35 AM

He is not a moderator. And as for Hydra's post, how can you say that?!! The Tavern is most certainly not meaningless. Maybe it is meaningless for you, but more than 80% of the members of Heroes Community post in the tavern more than anywhere else. True, this forum was created for Heroes discussions, but it evolved into a forum that had other things. The amount of posts a thread has marks its sucess. A post that has 1 page a day is probably worse than a thread with 2 pages a day. If it was your way, there would only be the Library and the Altar. That would cause even more spam, and the threads would become irrelevant. Roleplaying and word games are fun, and is a good contribution to the forum. However, spam is not cool, and everyone that says it is is wrong.
____________
Eccentric Opinion

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RedSoxFan3
RedSoxFan3


Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
posted December 10, 2003 05:00 AM
Edited By: RedSoxFan3 on 9 Dec 2003

I'd like to make those links active.

http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=3&TID=10278
http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=3&TID=10599
http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=3&TID=10054
http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=3&TID=10661
http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=3&TID=10787
http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=3&TID=10767
http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=3&TID=10687
http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=3&TID=10756

Quote:
There is a definite problem with spamming in Heroes Community at the moment, and there has been for over a year now. While I try not to dwell on it, and focus on my own forums such as the Heroes 5 Altar of Wishes, and the Lands of Axeoth, there is no denying that it does exist. At the moment, spam has settled down slightly, and I have seen the Tavern more active than this on previous occasions. There were times when all the posts on the first page of the tavern were within 6 hours, and the 1 day spanned 3-4 pages. Now, however, (maybe this thread helped) there are 2 days in one page of the Tavern. It is undeniable that the situation has improved from early in the year, and also, as an adverse effect, does still overshadow the on-topic, relevant, and more quality topics in the Library and Altar, especially.


First of all I take a completely different standpoint from you, Hydra.

I disagree with most of the things you say.

First of all, I'd like to point out that my arguement was that the forum was horribly inactive. At least it had been for quite a while. I hadn't checked it lately and didn't realize that there were several new threads. Before that though there was a huge dead period.

Secondly, your complaints of how Heroes Community is being overshadowed by the Tavern is incorrect. Sure the place isn't perfect. But tavern does not hurt this community. The off-topic forums are where this place becomes more of a community instead of a bunch of vulcan's arguing over what's the best strategy. Personally, I feel this coming from several of the members who are currently active in the strategy threads. This place is not a "community" without some off-topic threads. You may find many of these threads to be a waste. However, I do not think that tavern is hurting the Heroes discussion.

There are certainly some good threads that have come from Tavern such as Temple of Worship. This is one of the best threads in the site. However, there are several other threads that are equally as good in the strategy threads. This includes the numerous battle threads, such as Rampart vs Castle, etc.

Quote:
If I remember correctly, in slight excess of a year ago, a then notorious member of the community, RedSoxFan3, made a proposal to close down the Library of Enlightenment. He was an avid spammer at the time, and felt that the Library of Enlightenment did not provide enough discussion to continue. I was outraged at this comment. (For any of you who would like to see the thread, this is the link: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=6693. We did actually relate to spam, because RedSoxFan3 believed that the Tavern was the 'Sun' of Heroes Community, and the planets (Library, ToH, Lands, Altar) all revolved around it. This was not how I saw it. I actually wanted to close the Tavern, and with Nidhgrin, we created the idea for the Volcanic Wastelands. Although the Tavern wasn't closed, there was now a place for all the meaningless threads to be heaped.


To banish Tavern would be the same as banishing the Library. After all, the Other Side and Glade are simply categories of Tavern where as the Library is a base forum for Lands and Altar. You simply saying that Tavern should be banned seems to me like it's lashing out against me simply because I did not like the organization of the forums. Furthermore, I never thought that Tavern was the center of HC.

I feel that with a little work Tavern will be a great place to go and still have some good threads. HC is not always about getting to know the people as a community and tavern provides that.

Quote:
These days, however, spam is a much larger problem than it was. I for one, can easily tell. I have been here for nearly 2.5 years, and when the Tavern increases from 5,000 to 51,000, and the Altar from 10,000 - 17,000 in the same time period, you know that there is something awry.The Tavern is flooded, and has been for a while now, with threads such as:
Let's have War! by RedSoxFan3 - 1 week old amassed 50 replies
Three Word Stories!!! by Kyuu - 2 month old amassed 250+ replies
Word Association Game Part...Who Knows 2 by UndeadLord - >1 month old - 350 replies
Run on Sentences - RedSoxFan3
Does Time Truly Exist - Frostwolf
These are the sign of our times. Now, we compare this with similar threads from the Altar, Lands, and Library.
HC Exclusive - The Archer H5 Sketch Art by Valeriy - 3 days old - 25 replies. This is one of the most important threads in a while. Without so much extraneous action in the Tavern, I don't find it impossible to have amassed 70 replies in those three days.
My Assembled H5 Ideas by Marelt_Ekiran - .5 months old - 7 replies. An excellent collection of thoughts and ideas, and only 7 replies in twice as many days.
Compare Homm to Age of Wonders/Disciples by Hunnawanna - .5 months old, 6 replies.
Mapmaking Contest in Crypt of Maps by Ururam-Tururam - 2 months old, 5 replies, by the same two people. I would have thought a thread of such importance would have got more replies than this.
Heroes 2 Help by Nidhgrin - 3 days old, 0 replies. Surprisingly, nobody is able to help our former moderator who gave so much to the community in that position.
You can now see that the differences between the ontopic and offtopic forums are immense. It does really come down to one element, spam. This 'spam' is overabundant in the tavern, creating so many replies and not allowing others to explore other topics in more apt areas. The Tavern with spam has literally monopolised Heroes Community, and only an extremely significant event like the Heroes V designer visiting the site can attract more people back to the Heroes discussion.



This is really funny to read such denial. You think that the Tavern is a black hole that consumes all good candidates for Heroes discussion. This is certainly not the case. You are experiencing the side-effects of 3do making poor games. How else could there have been so much opposition to Homm4 from all the Homm3 fans. There were more than a year of delays in the making of Homm4. Perhaps this was what made the discussion of Heroes taper off. The game wasn't even complete. You have it stuck in your head that tavern is the problem. And something like Ubisoft taking interest in the fans is good. If Heroes 5 is a success than you will see Heroes discussions pick up again. Don't make tavern an escape goat just because there are a few members who run around spamming in tavern.

It also seems to me that you can't handle change. Let's take for example the highway system. Was it not originally designed for the transportation of our military? Now it is used for public traffic. This change in HC is the same. People are using this website for off-topic discussion and you feel threatened by it. I don't see the military complaining about how the highway system was used. They are telling everyone to close down the highways because they are being used for public transportation.

The fact of the matter is that there are many people who get the same enjoyment probably more out of tavern than you do in Heroes discussion. And your notions to simply kill of tavern is very inconsiderate and flat-out selfish. There are many people who enjoy the off-topic forums including myself.

I do agree with you that those threads shouldn't be in tavern. I don't think they should be deleted, but instead moved to VW. Active threads should never be deleted. I have always thought that wordgames should go there anyway.
____________
Go Red Sox!

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Dingo
Dingo


Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
posted December 10, 2003 06:01 AM

Quote:
You are experiencing the side-effects of 3do making poor games.


I liked HOMM3, that was created by 3DO.  I didn't think HOMM3 was a poor game, it was good.

The Tavern is a place to have fun, some people think Spamming is fun.  
____________
The Above Post/Thread/Idea Is CopyRighted by, The Dingo Corp.

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RedSoxFan3
RedSoxFan3


Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
posted December 10, 2003 06:15 AM

Are you kidding Homm3 is what made HC so active in the first place? I was referring to Homm4. Had Homm4 been as popular as 3 we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

Oh I forgot to mention something else.

This is a heroes website. However, it can be more than just a good place to have a good Homm discussion. And it will not feel like a community without some sort of off-topic discussion or sporadic spamming. These posts are fun and only make HC a more enjoyable place. The more people enjoy this place, the more people will come here. It's not simply Homm that makes HC, it's also the community as well. An ideal version of this place would have a better patrolled tavern and some more active Heroes discussion boards.

btw, I am quite optimistic on the creation of Homm 5, which I think will greatly increase Heroes Discussion once again.
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Go Red Sox!

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consis
consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted December 10, 2003 07:50 AM

Spam Complaint

I for one would like to see a change.When I make a post in the Tavern it is moved down so far that it's off the first page in the same day I created it.When I make reply it's completely taken from the 'last 5 replies' list within minutes by some rediculous word games.I know that when I enter the community I like to read about what the debates are and in which topics.I've come to accept(sadly) that when I get here i'll have to go looking through pages of tedious searching for a thread that was posted on that very day!Why can't you people just ICQ each other until the cows come home?Please let us have our meaningful Heroes discussions unabated.
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I

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Lord_Woock
Lord_Woock


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
posted December 10, 2003 02:38 PM

At the top of the page, right under the register link there's a today's posts link. You may find it helpful.
____________
Yolk and God bless.
---
My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!

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RedSoxFan3
RedSoxFan3


Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
posted December 10, 2003 03:52 PM

Tavern is not heroes discussion. There is a simple solution to cleaning up tavern and that is to move the word-games to VW. Word games should not be allowed in any forum other than this.
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Go Red Sox!

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted December 10, 2003 08:22 PM
Edited By: Djive on 10 Dec 2003

What is the member impressions of the following amendements to the Volcanic Wastelands:

- Introduce a 100 topics limit, and if more is sent to Wastelands then delete the ones which are on page 6 and beyond. (The ones which have not been posted to for the longest.)

- Place word games and similar threads which are posted to frequently but is about nothing in particular in the Volcanic Wastelands.

- Place "Hi I'm new threads" and the like in the Wastelands.

- Wastelands also remain as a forum where topics will be deleted a bit quicker when compared to the other forums.

Tavern is not changed, but the moving of more "I-want-to- increase-my-post-count topics  to Wastelands should improve the quality of the Tavern.

Edited in reply to Sir Stiven's Question below:
There's not all that much to delete Sir Stiven. I'm principally against editing another members posts just for the sake of being able to delete another member's spam posts.

Therefore quoting or replying to a SPAM post and also staying ontopic will often result in the SPAM post not being removed at all. This is something members may want to consider before replying to SPAM. Other moderators feel more free to edit  a member's post, but myself I really dislike taking such an action.

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Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted December 10, 2003 08:45 PM
Edited By: Sir_Stiven on 14 Dec 2003

dont have the time for a complete reply now...

but i just wanted to say that i like the ideas that you bring up djive, also having the same mod squad for these two forums (tavern/VW) is essential IMO.

But this is just solving the wordgame issue IMO, we still have to work on how to reduce spamming. And as many ideas has been brought up i would like to see the tavern mods opinions on those.

I would also like to see what val has to say about this so i will IM these 5 persons asking them to state their views on the new ideas and lets see what happens.

But as stated, i will make another post later today or tomorrow commenting hydras ideas etc.

Oh and btw, could you please djive delete the off topic posts now and those who appear later in this thread as soon as you see them? It makes me mad when some members even lack the judgement to figure out that this is one thread that hardly should be spammed in as it only makes the spammers look even more bad.

EDIT: As you might have noticed ive been busy lately and havent had the time it would take to make a well constructed post at the moment but ill respond to it as soon as i can.

oh and btw lith, spell my handle right

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Lith-Maethor
Lith-Maethor


Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
posted December 11, 2003 12:57 AM

summoned from the shadows by Sir Steven

everything has already been said and done ...spam is bad ...its evil ...what certain people can't understand is the difference between spam and what is refered to as "toss" ...the latter can be found in an old thread made by Woock and was pretty much killed by yours trully ...some of the best posters around were involved as well ...of course people may still think its spam but anyway ...it all comes down to your deffinition of spam

in short, I agree with what Steven, Khaelo and Hexa said in Page 1 (RL hunting me down, no time to really read the rest)
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RedSoxFan3
RedSoxFan3


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Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
posted December 11, 2003 04:22 AM
Edited By: RedSoxFan3 on 10 Dec 2003

I will reiterate what I have proposed earlier on this issue to also help with spam.

Quote:


Offenses:

1.) Making multiple pointless, off-topic posts in a thread that has any sort of serious discussion. Thread killing is the worst type of spamming, because it "kills" the good threads in the forum making it boring.

2.) Creating excessive threads. Also known as thread sprees. Maybe not as bad as thread killing, but certainly up there.

3.) Thread Necromancy. This is reviving old, spam threads. This is pointless and, to me, is the same as going on a thread spree.

4.) Word Games. These should be shipped out to Volanic Wastelands. I don't think that Wastelands should delete everything after a week, but instead have 1 or 2 pages of threads. This will keep the forum active. Any word games that die off can be revived. By someone else. However, not all games should go into VW. Games that are interesting to read should stay in tavern like Tell the Truth. Where as the games that are boring to read, but sometimes fun to play should go in VW.

5.) Flooding. This is posting in like 8 threads in a row that contain 1 or 2 short sentences each. Perhaps the worst of all spamming. This is truly only done to increase post count. Flooding often comes with other offenses including all of the previous offenses. Any sort of blatent flooding should be punished harshly.


Proposed Punishments:

1.) All spam posts will be deleted and the author will be given a penalty. The last thing we need is spammers ruining. The occasional off-topic post does not warrant a penalty, however a warning should be given. Further offenses will result in a penalty.

2.) A warning will be given to the user followed by either deletion of the thread or their shipment to VW. Further thread sprees will result in a penalty.

3.) The same actions should be taken with thread sprees. However, this is a hard offense to punish, because users who consistantly revive good threads should be far less apt to receive a penalty.

4.) The creation of word games outside of VW will be considered as a thread spree. A warning will be issued. The thread will be moved to VW. Further offenses of this kind will result in penalties. However, I do not think this will be a big issue.

5.) Flooding. This does not have to be off-topic spam in order to warrant a penalty. This could be as simple as making huge amounts of on-topic posts that are one or two liners and merely reiterate the opinions of what other members have already stated. These posts however not spam still have the intentions of increasing post count. Only severe cases of this type should warrant a warning. This is to keep the users who attempt to still increase post count rapidly without blatent spamming.

Users who flood forums in combination with the previous offenses should be given no warning at all and a flat out penalty as well as the deletion of all spam posts.

Finally, if any new policy on spam is passed we will obviously need to update our Faq/Rules section. I would also recommend that Spam receive it's on section in the page with detailed explantions of each offense as well as its punishments paralleling the format that I have used here.
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KittenAngel
KittenAngel


Supreme Hero
Lee's wifey
posted December 11, 2003 09:53 AM

Yes i totally agree to SPAM does need to stop or be slowed dramaticlly. We need to use the waste lands more and more. Also we need to start deleting all off topic posts out of good clean threads.
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the cat.

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Valeriy
Valeriy

Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
posted December 12, 2003 09:34 AM

Last night I've had SPAM for dinner. It was spam with curry, asparagus, sprouts and baby corn over a hotseat game of AOW 2. My friend suggested that junk mail is called SPAM because SPAM is junk food. The spam can was advertising spam Gear - T-shirts and caps with SPAM written on them. I doubt people buy them for their resemblance with the food product.


What is spam?

Canned beef originally. On HC, spam are junk posts. Junk post is a post that majority of people wish would not be there. In order for people to wish that a post would not be there, the post must fail to address the topic of discussion, and fail to provide intellectual or humorous stimulation to wider audience while doing so. Put simply: off topic, not interesting, not funny. These three judgements vary on perspective and the group which discusses the topic in question is the one to decide the three criteria.


Why do some members have a tendency to spam?

Personal identities on messageboards are constructed through posts. Members who post thoughtful posts are referred to as thoughtful, members who post funny posts are regarded as funny, members who express themselves are considered honest.

Some members fail for one reason or another to make ontopic, interesting or funny posts, and hence spam. This means they are prevented from building their identity as thoughtful, serious, honest, funny and a few other qualities attributed through ontopic, interesting and funny posts. These members are faced with an identity crisis, and their spectrum of actions on HC has the following extremes:
1) change the way they post to be ontopic/interesting/funny.
2) leave the way they post to be offtopic/uninteresting/not funny and find some positive qualities to attribute to this behaviour.

HC has members who have chosen 1, and members who have chosen 2, and of course in-between, and others who left.

Members who have chosen 2 tend to seek the following identity traits:
1) power and potency - usually sought through high post counts, large amounts of yellow stars and various titles that glorify their offtopic/uninteresting/not funny posting behaviour.
2) cool - sought by relating their careless posting behaviour to confidence and to other popular members with similar posting behaviour. Various titles go here as well.
3) spontaneous and unpredictable - attributing their lack of willingness or ability to post ontopic/interesting/funny topics to the complexity or originality of their thinking.


Is spam always a bad thing?

Given the above definition, yes.


Can spam be contributive in any way to this message board?

Given the above definition, no.


How can the spam be dealt with?

There are four entities involved, and each plays its part.

1) Members who engage in spaming behaviour.
Realize that posting offtopic/uninteresting/not funny posts does not make you powerful, potent, cool, spontaneous, unpredictable or original, but rather shows your lack of willingness or ability to express your positive qualities that others respect. That is all. The rest will follow automatically.

2) Members who do not engage in spaming behaviour.
Do not participate/condemn - show your attitude towards spam with calmness and direction.
If you don't want more of it, don't add to it with your posts.
If you want the spaming member to post less of it, do not condemn him, but find out why he does it and show him an alternative.
If you want the spam removed, tell a moderator.

3) Moderators.
If you use spaming behaviour to create part of your identity, do the same as suggested for members who spam. Everyone is looking at you.
Follow the updated FAQ/COC closely to have less spam on your forum. Spam can reduce exponentially. Respond to members' requests to handle spam. Investigate.
Talk to spamming members without condemnation - if possible, find out why they do it and suggest an alternative that would benefit them and everyone.

4) HC as the virtual structure.
Move word games and other topics that lack humour and are not interesting to Wastelands.
Threads will not be deleted from page 1 of Wastelands. From page 2 onwards, threads that have not been responded to for one week will be deleted.
Revised and updated COC/FAQ (just realized both of those words sound funny) to detail rules and procedures for dealing with spam.

Most importantly, each must do his/her part. I will think it over and propose a modified version of FAQ/COC. Thank you for your contribution, some great ideas have been spoken and several of them will be implemented. The case is not closed and more thoughts are welcome.
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Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
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Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted December 15, 2003 05:05 PM

one month has gone now...

since this thread was started. The thread so far has had over 600 views and almost 40 inputs so i guess that the ones whos had an opinion on this subject has made it known by now.

so where has this gotten us then?

Well atleast IMO we have had several good ideas, khaelos new use of volcanic wastelands being one. We have also had a suggestion from djive how to solve the word game issue.

As for the spamming part there are still a road to go it seems though. Problem has been updated and solutions has been proposed but IMO thats about where we stand right now.

Valery made a good post about how each "class" of the msg board could and should deal with spammers. But IMO the problem lies when some members dont listen to advice given to them and doesnt get the hint when moderators delete their off topic posts.

Thats when IMO there should be harsher treatment, as redsox suggests i also believe that penalties should take place.

I have learned that you can more or less "earn" QP:s here by being a good peaceful member. If thats correct or not can be discussed but isnt the matter here. But since this is being the case right now i wonder why you cant earn yourself penalties aswell?

Say a spammer that for example creates 10-20 threads in a short time, whereas 90% of these threads are crap more or less but maybe one of these 20 threads triggers a good discussion and he gets a QP for it.

What kind of signals does that send out? heck the 90% of the crap threads well get deleted sooner or later but when it comes to the members personal account he dont care because he has recieved a QP for his "trouble". So he is happy, left then is the rest of the community that has had to see all the crap threads and problably has gotten fed up with it.

This should be the case no more i believe, moderators should first instruct the spammers on what they are doing and that they should stop it (warn them). But if still no signs of any improvement start taking their stars. Not to be mean against the spammer but to make our community a better place.

So im 100% for that redsox proposed penalty list should be followed. Because when i see one responsible member and one promising member who is known for being spammers have spam promoting statuses aswell something is indeed wrong.

As for hydras input id say its a really well written one and i agree with it all except the part of deleting the tavern. The tavern IMO still has a purpose. The reason as ive understood why many members dislikes tavern is because the word games flood the place and they take up space on the "last 5 posts" table at starting page.

And as suggested i would like these threads moved to VW but i would also a script change so the posts from VW cant be registred at "last 5 posts". And if the threads moved to VW gets deleted on a regular basis the size of VW will never get to big and most of the tavern threads will disappear aswell after being moved to VW and then deleted.

meaning:
*size of tavern will be reduced greatly
*number of posts at HC will drop alot and make the page work faster
*all the word games wont be registred as last 5 posts all the time
* and most importantly: the tavern can be a fun place to visit again with some interesting threads. Because as said before there are threads that belongs in tavern and nowhere else.. threads like "football bar" for example.. thats no RPG, not a real life serious thread and if someone even thinks about moving it to VW ill start a riot lol

Quote:
As to the moderation, those mods most willing to combat spam preside over the forums least favored by spammers. Coincidence? Hardly.

An interesting point there by khaelo.

But IMO it is alittle harsh on mainly the tavern mods as tavern will be as the off topic forum #1 here at HC the primarily place to spam. As long as any spam exists it will IMO be mainly at tavern and i doubt it all can be deleted since some posts can be interpeted as spam by some and hilarious by others.

Though i also believe she has a point, for the moment i dont believe tavern mods are doing enough to stop the spamming. Even if tavern is a tough place to judge spam on i believe that the situation there yet could improve alot.

I also believe that by following khaelos suggestion of connecting the tavern/VW the situation for the mods there will be easier. They can just ship away many of the posts to VW and get a lesser active tavern. While having a more relaxed attitude in VW doesnt matter as much as that place wont be visited by as many members as visits the tavern now.

And if you need more modpower to handle this im sure they wont be that hard to find, myself id like to see khaelo as a part of VW/tavern mod squad if i am to recommend one.

She has the ideas and she has the courage to speak her mind. I like that.


But as for now id like to hear from Val/mod squad if any of these ideas are to be implemented. I believe many of us members has contributed with many ideas and possible solutions and most has been said, now its up to you to make something happen with these ideas if you so wish.

I for one really hope you do though.

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