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| Thread: Raize Towns |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Oldtimer
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Supreme Hero
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posted July 18, 2001 01:05 AM |
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It might get tedious if we had to ship resources in order to build in far off towns. I imagine that the builders in the town know we have resources to pay them when we start construction.
Maybe if we make it simple.
Mining town- collect resources within specific sphere of influence. All resources go to nearest town to be stored, similiar to creature slots in each town.
If town is taken over the resources that are stored in town go with town to victor.
You can transfer resources using a caravan if you think town is in danger.
Caravan can have guards and is limited to the movement speed of slowest guard unit.
If opponant discovers caravan it can attack and try to gain resources.
Maybe wandering monsters can attack caravan and then guard the treasure(refering to the wandering monster thread)
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted July 18, 2001 01:22 AM |
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That's sounds simple enough...
I almost totally agree...
This way there if wouldn't be so micromanagerial as you would have to move resources only when you're town is danger. Otherwise you wouldn't have to move the resources all the time when needed building something...
Or if you would like to build something really big into one town that hasn't even have portion of resources the building needs, the resources would have to be carried from some town with resources. I also think that caravans would have to be used when transporting large amount of resources to another player. You could of course send every day some small resources to your other towns and your allied, but there would be a limit and it could take also time to get them to far distances...
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Oldtimer
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posted July 18, 2001 01:39 AM |
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Getting back to raizing towns
You escape your castle before it is taken over in a resource caravan. Your main hero comes and retakes your castles. Now you must rebuild some or all of your town depending if your opponant raized or not.
There is limited raizing in HOMM3 if you recapture your capitol you must rebuild. A penalty for loosing it.
The question is would you raize captured towns or try to defend them?
If you think you can hold them you would not destroy them.
Maybe we should limit destruction to one building a day.
If you can hold a town for multiple days you would probably use it as a resource. Say if you decided to destroy parts of the town you could not gather gold from it until you rebuild what you destroyed.
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted July 18, 2001 01:59 AM |
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Are you meaning like riots?...
There could be a penalty of raizing if you want to keep the town...
If you take an opponent town and partly raize it, you couldn't get gold and creatures from there before you have done something to get the trust of the citizens back. You maybe have to rebuild it or something like that...
I think still that if you would have to have certain amoun of troops of certain level you could raize part of the town. Maybe this could represent the fact that you may lose control of town to citizens and cannot control it if you don't have enough creatures to keep them calm.
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Oldtimer
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posted July 18, 2001 02:05 AM |
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Lets say you raized part of the town and decided to leave a token guarding force in the town. The week changes and now there are more creatures in the stables than you have in town. Since these creatures regard themselves as slaves they have a percentage chance of rebelling until you fix town or leave town. If they rebell and win, the town becomes gray and continues to create creatures until it is won again.
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thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 18, 2001 09:16 AM |
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Oh, gee, it seems that this entire thread turns into your private dialogue. 
Never mind, just kidding.
Attracted by the words of wisdom here, I would like to share my 2 cents.
About raze town:
It is a very interesting idea. I personally think that it should be limited to destroy one building per day coz demolition also takes time. Not only can the raider destroy the town but the original holder can destroy the town as well if he feels that he cannot hold it any more.
This would also add one more dimension to strategy: after I build high lv mage guides and got what I want (TP, resurrection¡K¡K.), I may just destroy the mage guide and so the others can¡¦t get the spells ! 
As for the town defense problem, apart from leaving some garrison troops, build some defensive structures, I got one more idea: use of the spell ¡§disguise¡¨. I guess disguise is one of the least favorable spell due to its uselessness. How about make a new version of disguise spell for town defense ?
Basic: can put up to three ¡§phantom¡¨ stacks in the town i.e. even you have nothing in your town, it would look as if there are three creature stacks of the same alignment as the town. Of course, when attacked, these phantom stacks disappear and you lose.
Advance: Up to five phantom stacks.
Expert: Up to seven phantom stacks.
Mastery: Up to seven phantom stacks with any amount as the caster designate.
Maybe we can even build a structure called ¡§Illusionary Garrison¡¨ which have the same effect as basic disguise and upgraded one with effect of advance disguise. It can be used to scare those raiders away. Well, this can be countered by some skills like eagle eye, scout, or maybe spying.
Besides, we can have another new skill for town defending hero: deployment. With this skill, you can choose NOT to use all the available creatures in your town. Maybe the opponent just send some scout hero to test the town defense. You defeat it using minimal force. Next time he send his main hero, and to his surprise, your mighty titans, naga ¡K¡K. are waiting for him instead of your wimpy master gremlin¡K¡K.hahahahah¡K¡K
What do you feel about it ?
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted July 18, 2001 09:34 AM |
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There should be way to use illusion...
effieciently.
I like your idea of how you could hide troops, this could be even true when you are moving creatures over the adventuring map. If one thinks attacking a hero that has inferior troops compared to he could decide to leave some units behind and hit them with only them with front troops.
This way opponent would think your hero doesn't have really strong force, but only light forces and maybe later would attack again and now hero could use all his forces against this main attack.
Also there should be spell like disquise to cover those troops in towns before battle. But disquise should be changed so you choose how you want to your army to look like, does it appear to be weak or strong. Only spying would allow you to see heros true forces. This would make disquise pretty powerful spell and much better in my opinion as it stands now.
What I have heard about HoMM IV is that thera are some kind of illusionary battles. I'm not sure was it in the interview with leading designer Gus on the AstralWizard site...
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Oldtimer
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posted July 18, 2001 07:06 PM |
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I've always thought that the illusion spell was weak.
What is magic if not illusion?
It would be good to be able to hide a large group by making it look pathetic. It would also make the view hero/world spells more important.
Lets say you leave a powerful hero and use illusion to make the hero appear to look like a castle. The unsuspecting victim comes into town and boom! ambush time. Smart heros would spend time scouting and using the pierce illusion spell and turn the tables on the ambusher.
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted July 19, 2001 01:56 AM |
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Illusion...
Is in your mind.
How about illusion that would allow hide passes? I mean it would put some of the part of terrain like mountain passage like it's unpassable?
You could hide troops maybe mines too with these spells...
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Oldtimer
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Supreme Hero
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posted July 19, 2001 03:26 AM |
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Mines that look like dragons
Passes that look like mountains
Monsters that look like artifacts
Nothing is as it seems.
Artifacts: Glasses of true seeing, one time use potions that dispell illusion.
A hero class illusionist.
Illusion in combat: you target the titans but your actually targeting gremlins.
Ahh... the possibilities...
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usuario
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 25, 2001 03:58 AM |
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That would be fun...
I don't agree with separated resources for each town. This is not a business game, but a fantasy one. If you attack a town, you gain a small percentage of that player's resources, based on the size of the city (the capitol should keep most resources). But if this player lost all his towns, he doesn't lost all the resources. Maybe 50%, at max.
Another thing I was thinking, now about destroying towns. It's ok to destroy one building for turn, but I think the population wouldn't like to have their own town destroyed. Anyway, only level 7 creatures could destroy level 7 buildings, (now that there are four levels, only level 4 could destroy level 4 buildings)
Now, the fun: what happens if you attack the enemy's town at the same time that he attacks yours? Should you destroy his city, or build it up? Imagine both players destroying the cities of the opponents, without thinking that now they are theirs cities... Common, do not think destructively...
I would appreciate any replies, comments on my english, etc...
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Oldtimer
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posted July 25, 2001 06:26 AM |
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The tuned based aspect would make simultaineous attack difficult. The stategy dicision would be which building to raize before you escape, because the only reason you would not keep the town was if you knew his main hero was close enough to take it back and you don't want your hero trapped in a no win situation.
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Zud
Promising
Famous Hero
box worshipper
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posted July 25, 2001 02:29 PM |
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taking resources
Just my opinion, but if you are in the postition of taking opponents castles and expanding, you are usually in pretty good shape, considering opponent is defending and trying to protect his area and buy as much as possible to defend (this is assumption but usually the case) I think getting a percentage of his resources (although I see the rational of getting them) would strenghten the attacker too much and dillute the defenders ability to resist.
He has already lost the income of the castle now we are giving away his resources, IMHO this would cut any chance he had of retaliation.
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Oldtimer
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posted July 25, 2001 05:40 PM |
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Don't you deserve to loose resources if you loose a castle?
Strong player may get stronger in this scenerio, but it also gives a weak player an opportunity to catch up. What if you are resource starved but have a realatively big force, if you go on the offence you might be able to catch up and deny the opponant resources. It might reward risk taking by giving larger rewards, but if taking castles is more difficult maybe the aggressive player might have to rethink strategy.
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Wyvern
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 31, 2001 02:53 PM |
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In Age of Wonders you can raize towns and the only way to rebuild the town is by hiring a special unit - builder. But I don't think that in the Heroes series there have to be such a unit. I also don't think that the raizing should be so easy to make. Maybe there have to be a secondary skill Raizing and the more improving in this skill, the more buildings you can raize per turn. But maybe there also have to be a secondary skill Rebuilding whith which you won't have to pay to build the building again and you will restore the building for free. There could be a penalty for this - your hero could end his turn after rebuilding.
I have one more idea taken from Age of Wonders (great game!) - you can raize objects on the adventure map. I wonder whether it will work.
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Wyvern
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 27, 2001 09:50 AM |
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And here is another thread about razing (not raizing) towns. I see that I have made a suggestion, too...
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted October 28, 2001 09:10 PM |
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Edited By: Djive on 15 Dec 2001
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The thread already contains a thorough analysis of razing cons and pros, so I'll just add my views on a few parts as well as suggest a few additions.
Town ownership
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One thing abut the towns. You control them, but... you don't own them. Therefore if you want to do anything negative you should face an armed civilian force. A suitable number would perhaps be the weekly production of the strongest creature in town, or based on the un-recruited population of the town, or a combination of both.
If you want to destroy a dwelling you could face ten weeks worth of production for that dwelling. (I hope you're well armed...) Also once you've ruined any building in the town, town income for your player should be halved and the town should be prone to rebellion.
Town defences
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This ha been discussed already. If towns can be razed then there must be ways to make them much more difficult to take. Right now, it seems a bit too easy and especially since they're taking away the towers (it boosts damage from your shooting units now). Towns needs some defences with bite so they can ward away enemies even at big odds.
I must be prevented that small raiding parties becomes a problem. There is already some prevention and it might be dangerous for the raider to send out troops without Heroes because of Diplomacy issues. Keeping a small force in your garrison has always been a good idea. And as Oldtimer said, leaving a town (especially your capitol) without guard should be penalized in some way or other.
Another way to balance raiding a bit is to disallow razing on the turn you take the town, giving your opponent one turn to retake it. This really should be enough in most cases, and if you leave your town entirely for the winds then the enemy can do what he wants. But if the town appears undefended would the attacker really want to destroy anything in the town in that case? The enemy can be far away and could be a lot better off trying to hold the town than to raze it.
Another way to improve town defence is that the bigger the town is, the bigger the radius around it is Scouted for FoW effects. If a Capitol has a scouting radius of say 20 then you'll see the enemy at least 1-2 turns before he comes knocking on your door-step. Towns could have a Watch Tower building which could act to specifically increase the radius scouted. This could be combined with increased scouting radius when the town Hall is upgraded.
The idea of resources being taken when you take a town is reasonable... My belief is however, that the player's resources are not in the town at all. The "Player" owns his/her own resources, not the towns. This is because the Player control the town, but doesn't own it. It might, however, be an idea to introduce a "Player HQ" which could be raided to get resources. Hrmmm... I don't know how that would work though.
The caravan idea is to facilitate ease moving of creatures. The point of using caravans to move creatures is compromised if you allow caravans to be raided. Then if you really want to move resources, you should be able to protect them with the bulk of your army. I'm a bit adverse to micro-management when it comes to resources, much preferring the easy of resource management in Heroes 3.
The Outpost Town
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While razing towns is a possibility I prefer the approach that they've taken with the Outpost Town instead.
The Outpost is a town where the one who conquers it can decide which town type it is to be developed. I believe destroying towns or structures which you've built yourself should be prohibited. Destroying what the opponents built could be permissible, and is logical if the town was an outpost at the start of the game.
Protection against "stolen spells"
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About the protection of spells in Mage Guild: You will have some protection for powerful spells since in Heroes 4 it is unlikely that the opponent will have access to the highest levels of your own town's Primary Magic skills. In addition to this the following could be suggested: Before the Mage Guild allows the new player to learn spells, they could levy a price on that player, say 1000 Gold per spell in the guild. Alternative, the player could be required to upgrade the Mage Guild as a way of paying the cost.
Other ways of degrading/razing Towns
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Another idea is to be able to schedule disasters as Events in the Map Editor, triggered by some events. (The disaster is either to occur on a certain day, or a configurable amount of days after the Event happened.)
For instance:
You open a Pandora's Box and the world quakes ruining all level 4 buildings in all towns.
You open a Pandora's Box and all creatures (available for hire) in all town perish. (Plague Event)
A hero enters an area with an Event unwittingly giving cause to a cataclysm.
One week later a cataclysm occurs levelling all Mage Guilds to the ground.
A hero relesase a Stranger (See my "New Idea: Stranger" thread) who turns out to be the King of Cyclops. The King of Cyclops being grumpy to have been a prisoner returns to the mountains and attacks a pre-defined city. In this case there will be a battle but if the defenders lose, the city will be levelled to the ground. In this case it would be prudent to give some form of advance warning to the player who has the town that the city may be attacked, so it would be nice if that was supported too.
With the new scripting system in Heroes 4, some of these ideas could be made possible.
Alternative way of raiding towns
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There's one thing is this theft /razing scenario that I believe could be implemented. Towns could rely on artifacts for specific effects, and these artifacts could be raided and then placed in another town. For a few examples:
Book of Spells. Adds spell to the Mage Guild and its annexes. Requires: Mage Guild
Mana Vortex. Works similar to Dungeon. Though it may be a bit changed. Requires Mage Guild
Horn of Plenty. Adds 1000 Gold to Town Income (Hall)
Legion parts. Adds to creature production. (Creature dwellings)
Necklace of ocean Guidance. Gives all creatures a 5% bonus to movement allowance on water. (Shipyard)
Boots of Mobility. Gives all creatures a 5% bonus to movement allowance on land. (The building which serves as the start point for Caravans)
The Resource artifacts could also be handled the same way. Instead of being attached to Heroes, they could be attached to towns (Resource silo building) and be subject to raiding (=theft).
Once taken from one town, the raider needs to take the artifacts to a town the player controls to benefit from them.
No replies on my previous post . SO I've edited to add another new(?) wish in a related area.
I wish that the time it takes to conduct a combat is proportional to the number of rounds that you fight.
Each combat round should take between 2-5% of the movement allowance for a creature on the Adventure Map
Also if the combat isn't concluded at the 'normal' end of a turn, then the combat is paused and the fight will have to continue next day. (And in this case, both sides could get experience for what they've done so far in combat.)
This feature will protect towns with decent defences, since it will be difficult for the attackers to take the town before the turn ends, and next turn a defending hero may attack you in the back while you're still laying iege to the city.
Apart from the razing town aspect, this would also dissaude some time-consuming tac-tics like the one where 1 devil can kill a legion of dendroids. The devil can still manage it but it would now take several days.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted December 15, 2001 06:09 PM |
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finally..
after a long and fruitless debate about homm being connected to earthly cultural history or not, me and djive finally seem to have agreed about sth (-:
All the unrealism in HOMMs (4)
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Xenophanes
Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
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posted December 21, 2001 08:33 PM |
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Sounds good to me...
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth.
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