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| Thread: Official europian language |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Svarog
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statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted April 17, 2004 03:33 PM |
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Quote:
Serbs and Croatian are in conflict for a century. Yugoslavia was not appreciated in Croatia. Our people wanted liberty after 1300 years.
And these languages are not the same thing. They have always been different in many aspects of grammar and orthography.
I don't know what is the general opinion now about Yugoslavia or what do they teach you at school, but I can ensure you that 99% of all Yogoslovenians loved their country (at least until the death of Tito). And I also don't know what do you feel about it, but I've had discussions with many Croatians both older and young, and many of them spoke with a sense of likeness about those days.
I'm aware that young people today (both here and there) don't feel the same way as their parents, but don't tell me that Yugoslavia was not appriciated in Croatia.
If you say Serbs and Croatians are in conflict for a century, then either you don't know history or the history you are tought is drastically wrong. Sure, there have been rivalaries between these in Yugoslavia, but hey, that's hell far from conflict. All poeple were raised in the spirit of bratstvo i jedinstvo. Also, what kind of libery are you talking about? Liberty from who? You are confusing.
About the language though, you're terribly wrong again. You do know that those two were one common language just before 20 years. And differences surely exist, but not enough for two different languages. Huh, there's a bigger difference between the regional dialect spoken in Dalmacia and the official Croatian, than between official Serbian and Croatian, don't you think so?
Keep cool, guys! We're not arguing, we're discussing. 
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Fenix
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In ranks of Nebwoocka Alliance
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posted April 17, 2004 04:33 PM |
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Edited By: Fenix on 17 Apr 2004
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While Titio was alive, Yugoslavian idea was respected in Croatia. Before him and after him, everyone looked at it with dissaproval. I could remind you that I live in Croatia, and know the Croatian history certainly better than you (no offense). Tito was Croat and a central and powerful personality. He was able to make bratstvo i jedinstvo work, but it lost its sense after his death (at least in Croatia). 6 countries were never equal. Criatia lost its freedom in Middle age. A desire for it has shown and began to grow. (I'm not ustasa and I hate them, just for case)
Croatians joined Kraljevina SHS because politicans wanted to. After that struggle began. Remember Stjepan Radic and his murder in parlament? That seems like a conflict to me.
And two languages are definitely different. Perhaps you studied Serbo-Croatian mixture in school, so it looks more simmilar to you. It isn't, believe me.
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NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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Lord_Woock
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Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted April 17, 2004 04:35 PM |
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Svarog
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Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted April 17, 2004 06:18 PM |
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You seem to beleive that Croatia was not "liberated" while under Yugoslavia or the kingdom SHS. This is a matter of historical interpretation, not national history itself (for which you clearly know more than me). The facts are known. Fact is Croatians were recognized as constitutional people under Kraljevina Jugoslavija and enjoyed full cultural and administrative authonomy (unlike Macedonians for that matter, but that's another story), although Serbs had slight dominance in SHS. But to argue that Croatians were under Serb rule and oppressed, while fighting for their freedom is ridicilous. You say politicians wanted Croatia to join SHS. Well, exactly, that's why you cannot say Croatia was under Serb rule. All this said, you can claim even less that Croatia didn't have its "liberty" in socialist Yugoslavia. I'm familiar with this (in fact nationalistic) logic, cause we have a major political party here, which forwards that theory of independence as the turning point when Macedonia achieved liberty. But as you see, it's just an individual's perspective, not historical fact. While on the other hand, historical facts say Serbs and Croatians were not in conflict while in the same country (until the breakup of Yugoslavia), and both enjoyed complete freedom in every way. But rivalaries existed, I don't deny that, just as nationalistic currents existed both in SFRY and especially SHS.
Look, as i said, i've talked with many Croats about this. Most of them don't share your stance. So, the whole point of this socio-historical review is that Serbs and Croats don't innately hate each other. This whole tension was created only recently, thanks to the nationalistic streams in both countries. In fact, I know little of any Serb-Croatian wars in history, other than the one when Yugoslavia broke up. It's sad that Serbs and Croats still feel animosity towards each other, given that they share mnay things (among them the language). Tell me, how do you personally feel about the Serbs?
As for the language issue, I had a discussion with a Croatian teacher who teaches French and Croatian, and she agreed that the division of Serbian and Croatian is artificial in nature. For the record, I didn't study it in school, but I can speak and understand Yugoslavian reasonably well. Serbian and Croatian don't look similar, they are similar, if not the same. In fact, how can they not be, when they were one single language just 15 years ago? How many recent changes and new linguistic rules are there in Croatia? (Many.) Just in order to make the same language sound differently. I have a friend form Dalmacia (that's Croatian region, for those of you aliens in the thread). During her stay in my house for several days, I noticed she didn't speak Croatian "very naturally". I asked her, and she said she speaks official Croatian so that I can understand her, otherwise she'd speak Dalmatian. "Get the hell out of here! That's similar!" I said. That moment, she started speaking "Dalmatian", and I barely understood a word from what she said. A very noticable difference between her dialect and the official Croatian. On the other hand, I can hardly notice any difference between Serbian and Croatian. I'm not saying there aren't, but they are so insignificant to be considered "language-defining" differences. And there's absolutely no doubt that a Serb and Croatian can communicate without any problem.
You know why this mess is all about? The quarrel and recent wars between the peoples of ex-Yugoslavia, fueled up by the enormous amount of national shovinism in your countries, created that general atmosphere of breaking all the connections that existed between ex-Yugoslavians for so long. And "naturally" each independent nation had to come out with a language of their own. So now we are so divided mosaicly that we have Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, very soon (in fact there have been such steps just recently) Montenegrian, or whatever its name. Now, tell me. Do you honestly consider these four to be seperate languages? Political division created cultural one. It's not something spectacularly new. Take a look at the branches of Christianity and go back in the time when they segmented and you'll see that it was in fact political division, not religious one. Instead we strive for integration and unity, we relish in our miserable segmentation and hatred. And it especially pains me to see young people, such as you, who instead of closing the gaps that exist among us, neighbours, still preach that sh!tty idea of "unpassable differences".
To give another comparisson, it's like Americans and Australians now proclaim a language of their own, distinct from English. But unlike us, Balkanians, the rest of the civilised world, is not that blind by shovinism and thinks reasonably, not emotionally (well..., at least most of them  ).
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Fenix
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In ranks of Nebwoocka Alliance
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posted April 17, 2004 07:18 PM |
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Do you know the story about Vidovdanski ustav?
Croatia entered Yugoslavia because it lost the World War I and Austro-Hungary broke apart. Franjo Supilo and Ante Trumbic decided that the best solution was to join SHS and so it happened. 10 years ago, all Croatian political parties were fighting against Serbian dominatian till World War II.
I, personaly, don't feel hatred toward Serbian people. However,I dislike some of their political radical fractions. I know that not all the Serbs were on Milosevic's side and in Cetnicki pokret. People like me are, unfortunately, in a fewer number.
War was catastrophic and many people on both sides cannot forgive monstrous things done by both sides.
I live in Dalmatia, and the dialect is present only on islands far away from coast. Croats and Serbs can understand each other, but that doesn't mean the language has standard rules.
Changes in Croat language are only adjustments and returning to our classic language, that is used in litterature. Even in Yugoslavia, our litterature kept that language and was not influenced by elements of Serbian language. Try to read older edition of a book on markket in Croatia and serbia, and you will see the differences in every line.
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NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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