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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Yasser Arafat dead, what now?
Thread: Yasser Arafat dead, what now?
Asmodean
Asmodean


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
posted November 11, 2004 05:51 PM

Yasser Arafat dead, what now?

So Yasser Arafat is dead.
What do you think this'll mean for the Middle East now?
What will Europe and the USA do?
More importantly, what will the Israelis do?
What do you guys think?
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Vadskye91
Vadskye91


Promising
Supreme Hero
Back again
posted November 11, 2004 06:17 PM

We might actually be able to get some peace in the middle east.  I never liked Arafat- nothing personal, I just never saw him actually trying to give peace a chance.

Suppose he was assassinated?  Like poison?
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Wolfman
Wolfman


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Supreme Hero
Insomniac
posted November 11, 2004 06:22 PM

Quote:
We might actually be able to get some peace in the middle east.


Or maybe the leader of Hamas will take his place, or some other more polorizing person.  Then you can kiss any chance of peace goodbye.
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Daddy
Daddy


Responsible
Supreme Hero
and why not.
posted November 11, 2004 06:27 PM

Well, Wolfman might be right, though I hope that he's not...

btw isnt he called Yassir?

reg
Daddy

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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted November 11, 2004 06:29 PM

I knew it was comming, but hadn't heard yet he died. There will probably be a power struggle leading to more instability, at least in the short term. In the long term it will depend on who wins the power struggle.

They didn't know what was wrong with him. Yea, I considered the poison thing. If that were the case, I think it more likely to be some independent person or group rather than a government. It would have been very high risk for a government considering it could easily make things a lot worse with him dead.

There could also be a lot of fighting over his money. Who will get it, and what will it be used for???
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Asmodean
Asmodean


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
posted November 11, 2004 06:54 PM

Well I heard they've set up an interim govt. made up of a wide spread of viewpoints.
Problem is, the fanatics have a way of getting into power with a few well placed bullets, so we'll have to see how it goes.
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Khayman
Khayman


Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
posted November 11, 2004 08:27 PM

Next Step...

Logically, I would say that burying the ugly ******* would be next.   However, cremation would be much more fitting for him.  Afterwards, his ashes can be sprinkled over the Gaza Strip...or they can be delivered to the heart of Israel via a Palestinian suicide bomber, since he was never courageous enough himself to execute such a mission while he was alive.

Personally, I am celebrating his transition into the afterlife by ordering some corned beef & swiss with cole slaw on Jewish rye bread for lunch today.  Here's to you, Yassar!
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Daddy
Daddy


Responsible
Supreme Hero
and why not.
posted November 11, 2004 10:21 PM

@ money:
I read in the newspaper that his wife delayed the announcement of his death so she could get hold of the money, well that's what I read, but I think that the "Hamburger Abendlatt" can be declared serious
Today at 23:15 or sth is a special show on TV here about Yassir Arafat's life. This stuff is somewhat interesting imo - bummer that history and politics aren't that exciting in school - dunno what they do wrong there to make it so dry and boring...

reg
Daddy

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Leo_Lion
Leo_Lion


Honorable
Supreme Hero
The 5th Element & 6th Sense!
posted November 12, 2004 07:00 AM

Do I hear a Martyr?

Some say the truth is always stranger than fiction, but I feel like some weird twist to this whole story is either being supressed or will be revealed soon. This is either being done (or will be done) with the goal of advancing someone's political agenda!

Or he could simply have died from a disease...if he even died at all! Muwahahaha!
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zonekill
zonekill


Adventuring Hero
Wiedzmin
posted November 12, 2004 03:04 PM

Ehat USA and Europe do now?

Bush and Blair meet yesterday. Of course not only because of Yassir's death (Fallujah etc).

But I'm sure they spoke about the future of Palestina after Arafat is dead.


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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted November 12, 2004 03:45 PM
Edited By: Consis on 12 Nov 2004

It Depends.....

The question is not so much if peace will be possible and so forth. I believe the question for the next leader of the Palestinian people will be:

????  How will his actions portray him in the eyes of  ????

1. the Saudi Royal family
2. the extreme islamic fundamentalists in Egypt

For a very long time, Arafat has woefully failed to live up to these two foreign bodys' expectations. Arafat lost official support from the Saudi royal family a long time ago by going too far toward radicalism(P.L.O. history). Then he slowly lost support from the power factions in Egypt by leaning more and more toward peace with the Camp-David accords signed here on U.S. soil(whitehouse I think).

The next leader of the Palestinian people has to worry about losing support from the Saudi govt. while trying to facilitate a more healthy relationship with the covert power factions in Egypt(mafia-like islamic fundamentalists). If this new leader is seen as a weakling then he will lose support from Egypt, but if he is seen as too aggressive then he will lose support from the Saudi royal family. The biggest problem is the underlying hidden extreme islamic-fundamentalist inside Saudi Arabia. If this new leader shows himself to be a pointman for Israeli hatred then he could spark a more aggressive approach(i.e. a lot more support from arabic peoples) in the entire middle east. This would be a worst-case scenario and a very difficult thing to do because the Saudi royal family would not support such aggression with an ally to their largest business partner(u.s.a.). This could, in turn, increase a more likely atmosphere for a Saudi usurper(or assassination attempt). The Saudi royal family has always been in danger of such a thing.

We shall see what happens. The future depends greatly on the actions, not words, of the new leader. We shall have to wait and see if a coup attempt is made in Saudi Arabia, or Egypt-supported military action against Israel.
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


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Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted November 15, 2004 01:26 PM

R.I.P. Abu Amar. The Struggle Continues...

Well, if the Israelis and Americans can get one of their puppets into the old role of Arafat, we may see 'peace' in the Middle East. (The reason the Oslo-agreement went down the loo, was that Arafat wouldn't accept the role as a Israeli-controlled tyrant in the "self governed areas", like they got in Libanon. Instead he chose to be a powerless tyrant. He deserves respect for the refusal to be a tool in Israel's suppression of the Palestinians; but it doesn't make up for the fact that he was a tyrant who bought power to himself and his old friends.)

But if that won't happen, the genocide of the Palestinian people will continue, and Palestinian terrorists will continue to kill civilians in Israel.

Both sides in the conflict needs to take off their arrogant "cloaks", and try to do some good. Sharon must stop the settlers from stealing land from Palestinians, he must call back his troops form all Palestinian areas, and he must tear down the wall.
The Palestinians on the other hand, has a way larger task. The Hamas and Jiahd must stop the terrorist acts inside Israel, so that Sharon won't have an excuse to kill their people (if that is their goal, which I sometimes doubt...).
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
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Shiva
Shiva


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 15, 2004 02:53 PM

It's sad that someone as corrupt as Arafat was became the iconic leader that he did. Yesterday, Abbas was almost assasinated by gunmen yelling there is no successor to Arafat. If that is what people there think, there is not much hope. If he is the best they can produce as a leader, the Middle East is doomed to continuing violence.

I would hardly call what is going on there as a genocide of the Palestinians. If so, it is remarkebly inefficient, as there are more Palestinians then ever. People think that only because of the propaganda put out by the Palestinians themselves.

At the root of this conflict is this fact: do they (the Palestinians and Arabs) recognize Israel's right to exist. If that is accepted, then there is a basis for negotiation. If not, there will always be fighting there.

This is so because what ever you think of Israel and how it came to be, it exists and is not going away. The only way it will cease to exist is if the whole area is destroyed in an unthinkably destructive war. Therefore, it is totally unrealistic to expect anything but the continued presence of Israel. And the Palestinians are being totally unrealistic in continuing a struggle they dont need to continue. The intifada has hurt them more that it has hurt Israel.


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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


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Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted November 16, 2004 11:57 AM
Edited By: terje_the_mad_wizard on 16 Nov 2004

Quote:
It's sad that someone as corrupt as Arafat was became the iconic leader that he did. Yesterday, Abbas was almost assasinated by gunmen yelling there is no successor to Arafat. If that is what people there think, there is not much hope. If he is the best they can produce as a leader, the Middle East is doomed to continuing violence.

I agre it's sad that such a dictator as Arafat can be such a icon, but now that he is one, it's not much we can do about it. Intellectual Palestinians, like Edward Said, always thought it was weird how he got away with what he said. Like when he said that democracy would never be part of his vision of Palestine: He wanted to be "an Arabian leader", in the style of Gadaffi and Hussein.
But he will be remembered as a good and strong leader, for two reasons, imo:
1) Strong: he never gave in to the Israelis, at least not where his people could see him. You may argue that it didn't do him much good, which I agrre with, but that's the way it is, no matter what we may feel about it.
2) Good: He always gave the impression that he cared about his people. Wether he really did, or if this was just some kind of Machevellian ploy to gather power to himself, we may never know.

Quote:
I would hardly call what is going on there as a genocide of the Palestinians. If so, it is remarkebly inefficient, as there are more Palestinians then ever. People think that only because of the propaganda put out by the Palestinians themselves.

I still call it a genocide. The last time I saw rather accurate numbers of killed since 2000, the numbers were something like 3000:300. I don't think there's 10 times as many Palestinians as Israelis (and if it is, it only proves what an abomination the state of Israel is), so if this conflict'll go on for quite some time, which I think it most probably will, the Palestinians will be wiped out before the Israelis.

Quote:
At the root of this conflict is this fact: do they (the Palestinians and Arabs) recognize Israel's right to exist. If that is accepted, then there is a basis for negotiation. If not, there will always be fighting there.

If you only make demands to one part, there'll never be peace. Another, and just as valid question, is: Does Israel (and the US) recognize the Palestine's right ot exist, as it was drawn up by the UN in '48? Both parts must recognized and accept each other, and, more importantly, act as if they do. If not, no peace will ever come to Palestine.

Quote:
This is so because what ever you think of Israel and how it came to be, it exists and is not going away. The only way it will cease to exist is if the whole area is destroyed in an unthinkably destructive war. Therefore, it is totally unrealistic to expect anything but the continued presence of Israel. And the Palestinians are being totally unrealistic in continuing a struggle they dont need to continue. The intifada has hurt them more that it has hurt Israel.

I agree that even though I think that there never should be any such thing as Israel (I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm an anti-Zionist, just as I'm opposed to all kinds of nationalism, even Palestinian), the thing is never going away.
The Palestinians has as much right to defend their people and "their" land as the Israelis. Their struggle is more "legitimate" than that of Israel, imo, since it's the Israelis who are the aggressors in this conclict (helped by the Islamists and Palestinian nationalist elites, of course).

This conflict is, the way I see it, just another expression of how the people suffers when the mighty tries to grab as much power to themselves as possible.

EDIT: Changed 'legitimate' into '"legitimate"'
____________
"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.

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Shiva
Shiva


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 16, 2004 03:26 PM

First point, genocide is really misused here. Rawanda was a genocide,Aremenia was genocide, WWII was a genocide. Why? Because millions were killed and the attempt to wipe out a whole race was there.

Israel is hardly trying to wipe the Palestinians out. While the conflict has unequal death tolls, the figures do not point to genocide. Rather, they point to bad decisions by the Palestinian leadership in starting an intifada that harmed their own people more.

Why I say Israels right to exist is central here is because no country will agree to allowing a neighbor to come into existance that is sworn to destroy them. If the Palestinians as a whole accept this, then they have a chance at seeing how generous and helpful Israel can be.

As far as Arafat being strong in not giving in, I think he was weak and more worried about his own survival than doing the right thing. Mandela started as a terrorist, ended as a statesman. Dayan was a terrorist, ended as a Prime Minister. Arafat started as a terrorist, and in the end, gave into his fear of the hard liners back home because he was worried for his own survival. Hardly a man who puts his own people first.

Anybody that squirrels away millions, maybe billions of his own people's money whilst they are in desperate need is undeserving of any praise what so ever.
All dictators do that. Marcos(Phillipines), Sadam, Duvalier(Haiti)..and Arafat. Puts him in great company. And if the Palestinian people allow someone like that to exist, and adore him, well that is really sad.

Yes both states have a right to exist. Israel came into existance after WWII, fought 4 wars against bigger armies than their own to keep their right. That could and would have been a genocide if they lost. Historically, if you are willing to go back a few thousand years, the Jews have as much right to be there as anybody. If not, then go back 50 years and they still have a right because they are there. What I'm saying is there is no historical precedence that can't be changed by looking at in another light. Then, the right of ownership is paramount. They own Israel. The Palestinians who left in 1948 when the Arab nations said we will wipe them out and you can go back made bad decisions. Some stayed and are citizens of Israel.

..deep breath, got to go...

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Wolfman
Wolfman


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Supreme Hero
Insomniac
posted November 16, 2004 03:33 PM
Edited By: Wolfman on 16 Nov 2004

Last I've heard, the man leading in the polls to replace Arafat is currently serving multiple life sentances in an Israeli jail for terrorism related crimes.  Is this man supposed to help create peace?  Unlikely.

CNN:
Quote:
Marwan Barghouti

Although he is serving five consecutive life terms and 40 years in an Israeli prison for murder and attempted murder, Barghouti is one of the Palestinians' most popular politicians.

A Fatah leader born in 1958 in Ramallah, West Bank, he was arrested and convicted on five murder charges in 2002 -- and acquitted on more than 30 others because of lack of evidence. Israel ties him to Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a military offshoot of the Fatah movement that has attacked Israeli military and civilian targets. Barghouti denies founding the group.



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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted November 17, 2004 12:02 PM
Edited By: terje_the_mad_wizard on 17 Nov 2004

And the Israeli Prime Minister is known as "The Butcher of Shabra and Shatilla".
Can't really expect more of him...

No matter how you see it, this conflict is one of the saddest the world has seen since WWII, imo, in the extent it's possible to rate conflicts in such a way...

One thing about this conflict, is that it's rather hard from a Western humanist POV to defend any of the parts.
If you defend the Palestine, you may end up defending a bunch of corrupt, despotic, religious semi-fundamentalist, semi-terrorist nationalists (like I somehow did above...), while if you try to defend Israel, you may end up defending a would-be Apartheid regime, who kills rock-throwing boys, destroys the homes of innocent people (their only crimes being related to a suicide bomber), and are constructing a 8m tall wall on land that do not belong to them.

So we mostly end up attacking the part we don't sympathize with, instead of making some constuctive critisism.
____________
"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.

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