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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Seperation of Church & State
Thread: Seperation of Church & State This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Consis
Consis


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posted March 02, 2005 03:48 PM
Edited By: Consis on 2 Mar 2005

Seperation of Church & State

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/01/scotus.ten.commandments/index.html
Quote:
Justices will consider whether displaying the ten commandments represents state endorsement of religion, or simply recognizes and reflects the role that code has played in U.S. moral and legal traditions. "The Decalogue", as it is also known, forms a pillar of belief in Christianity, Judaism and Islam. The Bush administration and 26 state attorneys general filed a brief with the court supporting the Texas and Kentucky displays. No states publicly oppose it.

A poll found 76% of those questioned said they support the Ten Commandments being displayed at the Texas Capitol. 21% of those surveyed said they were opposed.

The pervasiveness of the Ten Commandments is evident in the Supreme Court building itself. Inside the courtroom is a series of marble friezes that include not only Confucius, Mohammed and secular figures associated with law, but also Moses holding the tablets, without text. The justices can see them from the bench simply by looking up.

This might seem like an American-related topic but it doesn't have to be that way. I am curious to know what other country's opinions/formal-informal laws are on the issue of state-sponsored religious practices and displays. Should the national government be allowed to support one religion over another? In religion there is no democracy but in democracy the majority of people who claim membership to any single religion can vote for state-sponsorship. Is this fair or hypocrasy? Is it fair that religion can be so authoritative through the use of democratic principles?

Here in my country we are very specific with regards to this subject in our Constitution. The First Amendment states: "Congress shall make no law respecting the Establishment of Religion". And not only has this been laid out very clearly by our founding forefathers, but also our history is littered with example after example of times when the people have upheld this law again and again. I suppose the challenges will never stop.

It should be noted that the poll taken was an American poll. The fact is the United States of America is about 76% christian majority. To look at that poll seems to reflect the majority religious segment of the population.





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Nidhgrin
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posted March 05, 2005 04:30 PM
Edited By: Nidhgrin on 5 Mar 2005

From a European's point of view, I guess we would say that religion has a much greater impact on US politics than it has on European politics.  It 'might' be easier around here to change laws involving religion, I think you will find much more diverse situations in all of the different European countries.

In my country some religions do get dotations, others (smaller and officially not recognized) do not.  Personally I don't follow any of those subsidiated (is this even a word?) religions, but still I have to pay for them.  That's okay in my opinion, but I have a problem with the smaller religions being marginalized and not receiving tax money to the same extent as the bigger ones.

One option would be to give donations based on the amount of members, but that could lead to an unhealthy form of competition - having the bigger religions launch commercial crusades to gain members pushing the smaller ones aside.

Another, perhaps fairer option would be to cancel donations for all religious organisations, though not one the established religious institutions would like to hear.

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Asmodean
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posted March 05, 2005 09:46 PM

Instead of taking away anything.
Why wouldn't they consider adding justice symbolism for other religions? Or is that too much for the US to embrace?
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Khaelo
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posted March 05, 2005 10:25 PM

Which other religions?  What do you do with conflicting justice symbolism?  How cluttered is the courthouse lawn going to get?    If we're putting monuments to legal texts in front of government buildings, the US Constitution is better and more appropriate selection.

There is nothing saying that the Ten Commandments cannot be displayed publically.  People can put them up in front of their houses, places of worship, businesses.  Why are they so attached to putting them in front of the courthouse?

Part of the problem here, in my opinion, is people who cannot accept that their religion is not and should not be privileged in the eyes of the law.
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Helldragon
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posted March 07, 2005 12:54 AM

so this is how you know so much... lol
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Halanna
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posted March 11, 2005 02:13 PM

Quote:

There is nothing saying that the Ten Commandments cannot be displayed publically.  People can put them up in front of their houses, places of worship, businesses.  Why are they so attached to putting them in front of the courthouse?


Good question.  I'd like to see opinions on this.  Why do the Ten Commandments need to be in front of a courthouse?  Or inside a courthouse?  Why?
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Consis
Consis


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posted August 29, 2006 02:19 AM

We've Got 'Em Too

**copied from CNN website**
Quote:
MIAMI, Florida U.S. Rep. Katherine Harris told a religious journal that separation of church and state is "a lie" and God and the nation's founding fathers did not intend the country be "a nation of secular laws."

The Republican candidate for U.S. Senate also said that if Christians are not elected, politicians will "legislate sin," including abortion and gay marriage. Separation of church and state is "a lie we have been told," Harris said in the interview, published Thursday, saying separating religion and politics is "wrong because God is the one who chooses our rulers." Electing non-Christians allows 'legislating sin'
"If you're not electing Christians, then in essence you are going to legislate sin," Harris said.

The comments reflected "her deep grounding in Judeo-Christian values," the statement said, adding that Harris had previously supported pro-Israel legislation and legislation recognizing the Holocaust.

I hope people don't think Europeans are the only ones with crusader cults. I've said it before that America has a very much alive and vigorous group of Acolyte-Christian-Fanatics ready to wage war over Israel at the drop of a hat. And I'm not talking about Jerry Fallwell and Latter Day Saint CEO's(I meant to say prophet). For every cockroach . . . how many are there that you don't see? Why won't anyone believe?
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friendofgunnar
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posted August 29, 2006 07:20 AM

Quote:
Europeans are the only ones with crusader cults


??

This is the first I've heard of this.


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ruby
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posted August 29, 2006 06:59 PM

Quote:
Quote:

There is nothing saying that the Ten Commandments cannot be displayed publically.  People can put them up in front of their houses, places of worship, businesses.  Why are they so attached to putting them in front of the courthouse?


Good question.  I'd like to see opinions on this.  Why do the Ten Commandments need to be in front of a courthouse?  Or inside a courthouse?  Why?


This is where you have to be religious or understand the religious views of the Christian society. Most Christians are taught to follow the ten commandments and most of you, Christian or not, believer or unbeliever, know what they are...but the things that go on in a courthouse believe it or not, has a lot to do with the ten commandments. If the Christian society was brought up to follow them, and the founding fathers of America put them up in courthouses to be followed in the beginning, then why wouldn't they be upset that they were to be taken down?

I am not supporting either side, just giving the nonbelievers something to think about. Christianity is a debate never won. If you don't have faith then you can't understand what the Christians are fighting for. Christianity is therefor something that is impossible to argue about without faith.
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Consis
Consis


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posted September 10, 2006 04:18 PM

Oldest Story In The Book

**copied from cnn website**
Quote:
In three of the Gospels, Jesus warns that each of his disciples may have to "deny himself" and even "take up his Cross." In support of this prediction, he contrasts the fleeting pleasures of today with the promise of eternity: "For what profit is it to a man," he asks, "if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?"

Generations of churchgoers have understood that being Christian means being ready to sacrifice. But for a growing number of Christians, the question is better restated, "Why not gain the whole world plus my soul?"

For several decades, a philosophy has been percolating in the 10 million-strong Pentecostal wing of Christianity that seems to turn the Gospels' passage on its head. Certainly, it allows, Christians should keep one eye on heaven. But the new good news is that God doesn't want us to wait. Known (or vilified) under a variety of names -- Word of Faith, Health and Wealth, Name It and Claim It, Prosperity Theology. Its emphasis is on God's promised generosity in this life. In a nutshell, it suggests that a God who loves you does not want you to be broke.

Its signature verse could be John 10:10: "I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." In a Time poll, 17 percent of Christians surveyed said they considered themselves part of such a movement, while a full 61 percent believed that God wants people to be prosperous.

"Prosperity" first blazed to public attention as the driveshaft in the moneymaking machine that was 1980s televangelism and faded from mainstream view with the Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart scandals. But now, after some key modifications (which have inspired some to redub it Prosperity Lite), it has not only recovered but is booming. Of the four biggest megachurches in the country, three: Joel Osteen's Lakewood in Houston; T.D. Jakes' Potter's House in south Dallas; and Creflo Dollar's World Changers in Atlanta: are Prosperity or Prosperity Lite pulpits (although Jakes' ministry has many more facets). While they don't exclusively teach that God's riches want to be in believers' wallets, it is a key part of their doctrine.

And propelled by Osteen's 4 million-selling book, Your Best Life Now, the belief has swept beyond its Pentecostal base into more buttoned-down evangelical churches, and even into congregations in the more liberal Mainline. It is taught in hundreds of non-Pentecostal Bible studies. One Pennsylvania Lutheran pastor even made it the basis for a sermon series for Lent, when Christians usually meditate on why Jesus was having His Worst Life Then.

The movement's renaissance has infuriated a number of prominent pastors, theologians and commentators. Fellow megapastor Rick Warren, whose book The Purpose Driven Life has outsold Osteen's by a ratio of 7 to 1, finds the very basis of Prosperity laughable. "This idea that God wants everybody to be wealthy?" he snorts. "There is a word for that: baloney. It's creating a false idol. You don't measure your self-worth by your net worth. I can show you millions of faithful followers of Christ who live in poverty. Why isn't everyone in the church a millionaire?"

The brickbats -- both theological and practical (who really gets rich from this?) --come especially thick from Evangelicals like Warren. Evangelicalism is more prominent and influential than ever before. Yet the movement, which has never had a robust theology of money, finds an aggressive philosophy advancing within its ranks that many of its leaders regard as simplistic, possibly heretical and certainly embarrassing.

Prosperity's defenders claim to be able to match their critics chapter and verse. They caution against broad-brushing a wide spectrum that ranges from pastors who crassly solicit sky's-the-limit financial offerings from their congregations to those whose services tend more toward God-fueled self-help.

Advocates note Prosperity's racial diversity -- a welcome exception to the American norm -- and point out that some Prosperity churches engage in significant charity. And they see in it a happy corrective for Christians who are more used to being chastened for their sins than celebrated as God's children.

"Who would want to get in on something where you're miserable, poor, broke and ugly and you just have to muddle through until you get to heaven?" asks Joyce Meyer, a popular television preacher and author often lumped in the Prosperity Lite camp. "I believe God wants to give us nice things."

If nothing else, Meyer and other new-breed preachers broach a neglected topic that should really be a staple of Sunday messages: Does God want you to be rich?

Good old America and good old human nature never looked so good and old.
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Consis
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posted May 09, 2007 06:31 PM
Edited by Consis at 18:32, 09 May 2007.

Lou Dobbs Tosses His Opinion In The Mix

**copied from cnn website**
Quote:
By: Lou Dobbs

The separation of church and state in this country is narrowing. And it is the church, not the state that is encroaching. Our Constitution protects religion from the intrusion or coercion of the state. But we have precious little protection against the political adventurism of all manner of churches and religious organizations.

The leadership of the Catholic Church and many Protestant churches, as well as Jewish and even Muslim religious organizations, are driving that political adventurism as those leaders conflate religion and politics. And while there is a narrowing of the separation between church and state, there is a widening schism between the leadership of churches and religious organizations and their followers and members.

Conservative evangelical leader James Dobson recently said actor and former Sen. Fred Thompson wasn't Christian enough to be president. He instead chose to commend Newt Gingrich, who has been married three times and recently admitted to an extramarital affair. Five evangelical Christian leaders signed the "Land Letter" to President Bush in 2002 affirming a Christian theological basis to invade Iraq.

This week the head of the Los Angeles Archdiocese, Cardinal Roger Mahoney, basically threatened his faithful with denial of heaven if they don't support amnesty for illegal aliens. The good Cardinal said: "Anything that tears down one group of people or one person, anything that is a negative in our community, disqualifies us from being part of the eternal city."

The nation's religious leaders seem hell-bent on ignoring the separation of church and state when it comes to the politically charged issue of illegal immigration. A new coalition called Christians for Comprehensive Immigration Reform Wednesday will begin lobbying lawmakers with a new advertising and direct mail campaign on behalf of amnesty for illegal aliens.

The Rev. Jim Wallis of Sojourners Magazine put it this way: "If given the choice on this issue between Jesus and Lou Dobbs, I choose my Lord and savior, Jesus Christ."

But before the faithful acquiesce in the false choice offered by the good Reverend, perhaps he and his followers should consult Romans 13, where it is written: "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."

There is a more obvious and immediate judgment offered by the followers and members of both the Protestant and Catholic Churches. A Zogby poll last year asked churchgoers if they supported the House bill that would make illegal aliens return home and reduce future illegal immigration by securing the border and performing checks on illegal employers. Seventy-five percent of Protestants responded that was a good or very good idea, 77 percent of born-again Christians also agreed, and 66 percent of Catholics also backed tougher enforcement measures.

This schism between our church leaders and church members is just as broad and deep as that between our elected officials and their constituents across the country. Neither the state nor the church is exhibiting wisdom or fidelity to our national values in permitting the widening of that divide.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of the writer.

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violent_flower
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posted May 09, 2007 06:54 PM
Edited by violent_flower at 01:06, 10 May 2007.

  Religion is a state of mind and is purely a choice. The government is what we have to adhere by or there are consequences, legal ones that don't involve whether we will get to eat turkey dinner served by white winged angels. So without disclosing whether I'm religious or not, I don't see a need to display anything religious based publicly, especially if the tax payers have to pay for it. Plant daisy's in front of court house leave the religion out of it.

Quote:
Is this fair or hypocrasy?


Fair? Nothing is really ever fair and will always be looked on by one person different then another. My hard earn money going for something that I may not believe in is not "fair." WTH though I pay for a school system that has been balancing on a thread of real education for our children, this is not "fair" either. There does not seem to be a fix any for the unfair things in the world.



I think if you wish to read the Ten Commandments put them up in your home, car, or tattoo them on your head but don't deplete funds to put them up or tear them down. We have other things like starvation, homeless handicaps, and disease ridden countries that we could put our money into.



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JoonasTo
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posted May 09, 2007 08:30 PM

Have you been watching the situation in Turkey?

A really good case in point for religion affecting politics.

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Consis
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posted May 09, 2007 11:01 PM

Nope

Could you simply post some of the details you are referring to? That way we can all follow along and possibly even conduct a worthwhile discussion on whatever it is that you're talking about.
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angelito
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posted May 09, 2007 11:27 PM

CNN article about the current politcial situation in Turkey: Turkey
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executor
executor


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posted May 09, 2007 11:59 PM

Well if Turks choose islamists it would mean they do not want their own costitution to be respected and that the secularization of their country is worthless to them. But idea of democracy allows them to do so IMHO.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted May 10, 2007 12:59 AM

state vs church

now... that is quite the discussion isn't it? ...can there truly be a religion-influenced stae without a country falling into theocracy? ...should the church (any church) meddle with state issues, or is it best if it sticks to the spiritual side of things?

...i was raised an orthodox christian, in a country where typically at least, church and state are separate (not as much as i'd like though... officials are still sworn to the bible ...and claiming to be a non-orthodox is potentially damaging to one's political career, at least till a few years ago) and even the constitution states that everyone has the right to believe whatever they like, as long as they don't force those beliefs on others

...now, i am an atheist and a liberal buddhist and my view on religion in general has changed quite a bit ..however one thing remained the same ...i still believe what i used to when i was eight years old... church and state should be as far from one another as possible ...this is backed by watching a very meddling head of church (thankfully, nobody pays much attention to him anyway) and by seeing what mixing state and church does to our neighbours to the east... Turkey

...those familiar with the history of the area, know that politically correctness aside, there is a large percentage in both Greece and Turkey that would just love to get a chance to get in a ring with "the other guys" and let the fists fly (and yes, at times i too fall into that category) ...but what Turkey is going through now makes me feel sorry about the Turks ...if the religious side wins, the country will be tossed back decades ...and that is good for nobody, not them, not us, not the world in general

...however, perhaps the best example of this, is no other than the mighty US of A ...what? yes yes, in theory it is a secular country ...in practice however, things are different ...the vast majority is religious (and nothing is wrong with that) and the leaders, although not religious themselves, or even moral, use religious based excuses to keep the people complacent

(on a slightly different note, the "in god we trust" on money remains mostly because it would cost too much to be removed ...sadly, it keeps people thinking of the USA as a Christian country instead of a secular one)
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violent_flower
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posted May 10, 2007 01:14 AM
Edited by Lith-Maethor at 02:01, 10 May 2007.

I completely agree and the fact that religious preference or just the fact that ones believes at all, can push them through an election or effect their total vote numbers is a slap in the face. Since God has not be "proven" in loose terms, it is like supporting someone in office that believes non of us exists, as if we are all living in a fogged up dream of sorts. Religion or preferrence there of has nothing to do or should have nothing to do with politics, funding of, or our justice system.

EDIT: fixed format
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 10, 2007 05:30 AM

I don't see why they have to be linked at all in a supposedly 'free' country.

Half of the 10 commandments have no effect on todays justice system anyway.


I am the Lord your God
Thou shall have no other gods before me
Thou shall not make for yourself an idol
Thou shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
Honor your parents

None of those have any association with the law, or today's society at all..

And these

Thou shall not covet your neighbour's wife
Thou shall not covet your neighbour's house


Aren't laws either..
I also think that it would make sense to take away the "or so help me god" thing and the "in god we trust" etc, Seeing as america is supposed to have religious freedom..
Doesn't affect me all that much though.
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Colonel_here
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posted May 10, 2007 06:28 AM

Well the ten commandments are mostly irrelevant in todays justice system so adding them to a courthouse for symbolism has no meaning. The statues of great philosophers of law would make more sense. However if the courthouse already has them installed than now they are part of architecture and could be considered to be of historical value to the building as architectural piece. In this case removal of them would be damaging the historical look of the building.
In Canada the supreme Court building is very plain with very little decoration, plus I don't think that public will agree with the ten commandments posting. There would be no problem if John Defeinbaker's statue was put infront of it or Pierre Elliet Trudeau's statue, since they did play significant roles in legal system of Canada.
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