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| Thread: Life/Death John Paul II | |
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted April 03, 2005 08:37 AM |
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Life/Death John Paul II
It is quiet here and not many people at all. There are three guests + myself.
I want to talk about this man, John Paul II. I only know very little about him. I know he was Polish-born and the second to be elected after two popes died within a short period of time before him. I also know he was from the generation that saw the horrors of the holocaust and Nazi occupation of eastern Europe. I've also heard many people say that he helped defeat Soviet communism and took a more peaceful approach to those people worshipping Judaism. Others have said he had a sense of humor and that he was very intelligent; being able to speak many different languages.
But that is all I know about this man. It's quiet and not many people will read this for some time. But I'll wait....I was hoping to hear stories from people who had something to say or if anyone has met him in person. I've never met him. It seems so many people have so many good things to say about him. I hope to hear more if anyone feels comfortable enough to share it with me. If not then that's ok too.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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lord_crusader
Promising
Supreme Hero
UHU!! supreme!
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posted April 03, 2005 09:15 AM |
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I'm from Mexico... a catholic country for excellence...
My father has the chance to know him in person and take his hand... he said this man has an incredible aura of good things and feelings... maybe I'm not a perfect catolic man, but he show me the good things of any religion... love, respect, tolerance and peace.
this man do a lot of things... but the most important thing that we must take for our lifes is his message (he spoke in 12 diferent idioms) of peace and tolarance for the others... no matter the religion or the colour of the skin (he travel for all the world with this message also on anti catholic countries), and no matter if he was victim attack, he always give his pardon, we simply can't forget his message...
Rest In Peace
Juan Pablo II
El papa peregrino
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Dig Out Your Soul
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted April 03, 2005 06:54 PM |
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I Have Learned More
First, thankyou lord_crusader for sharing your thoughts and experiences with myself and others who read this discussion.
I have only just now learned that this man actually condemned the crusades, apologized for the inquisition, lamented the Jewish persecution, and fought relentlessly to change the official catholic position on the death penalty. I am hearing that he helped bring the catholic church to officially oppose the death penalty. They also say that he helped to bring about the new law forbidding any catholic priest or bishop to hold any elected office. I am also hearing that he stated, very specifically, that the catholic church was wrong for what they did to Gallileo.
I do not know if all of this is true but these sound like some very significant things for one pope to do.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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ratmonky
Famous Hero
Abu Hur Ibn Rashka
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posted April 03, 2005 07:59 PM |
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Quote:
I have only just now learned that this man actually condemned the crusades, apologized for the inquisition, lamented the Jewish persecution, and fought relentlessly to change the official catholic position on the death penalty. I am hearing that he helped bring the catholic church to officially oppose the death penalty. They also say that he helped to bring about the new law forbidding any catholic priest or bishop to hold any elected office. I am also hearing that he stated, very specifically, that the catholic church was wrong for what they did to Gallileo.
I do not know if all of this is true but these sound like some very significant things for one pope to do.
yes, this is all true!
Besides, he was the first pope to visit a Jewish Synagoge. He was the first pope to apologize to the Orthodox Church for all the wrongs that was done during past 1000 years, he was the first pope to hold a meeting with the leaders of other religions of the world.
In one word, he was a great man and he'll surely be missed.
I also think that the Catholic Church might canonize him as a Saint.
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Dies illa, dies irae,
Calamitatis et miseriae.
Requiem aeternum
Dona eis, dona eis Domine.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
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Disciple of Herodotus
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posted April 03, 2005 09:43 PM |
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Of course, you have the small flaws of him comparing abortion with the Holocaust, the Vatican's "war on prevention" which has cost several million people their lives.
But since he was, after all, a Catholic, and since Catholics are supposed to mean things like that, I don't let it count too much in his disadvantage.
After all, the man visited every country in the world, was an avid advocate of world peace and eucumenical cooperation, and was according to some historians (communist ones actually, who should have no reason to put the pope in a flattering light - that's the main reason why I believe in it) the main man behind the fall of the Soviet Union (Reagan isa midget in comparison - but he's a midget anyway, so that doesn't say much  - let's rather say that he makes Lech Valesa look almost impotent), through his heavy support of the Solidarity movement.
He's with his Creator now, which I guess is what all Christians wants to, in the end. 
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 04, 2005 03:05 PM |
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He was a man of the highest standards. It doesn't matter if
I agree with all of his or the churches views, I believe
he truly tried to make the world a better place.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted April 04, 2005 03:21 PM |
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Let's Be Realistic Too...
I am also learning that he refused women the right to be ordained ministers. All these other great accomplishments but women still don't have equality. He was also against cloning, abortion, and contraception. Catholics believe only contraception should be abstinence.
This is not only a problem in Catholicism. The Mormons, Jews, and Muslims also refuse to let women hold similar positions. This is a great problem in the world today.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
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Disciple of Herodotus
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posted April 04, 2005 06:41 PM |
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I found a timeline of his life today:
1920: Born in Warzawa, Poland, as Karol Josef Wojtyla.
1938: Begins to study in Krakow. Excels as an actor in an experimental theatre group.
1940-44: He works in a quarry at a chemical factory to avoid being imprisoned during the Nazi Occupation of Poland.
1942: Secretly begins to study for becoming a priest.
1946: Ordained as a priest. Begins to study at the Anglicum University in Rome.
1948: Gets two doctor grades - one in theology and one in philosophy.
1954: Is a member of the teaching staff at the Catholic university of Lublin.
1958: Elected as "aid bishop" in Krakow. Enjoys success as a leader of the church despite Communist oppression.
1960: His best known book, "Love and Responsibility", is published.
1964: Appointed Archbishop.
1967: Ordained as a Cardinal.
1978: Elected Pope at the age of 58. The first non-Italian Pope in 400 years.
1979: Sends out the first of 14 encyclica. Visits South America in his first of many foreign visits.
1980: Meets Queen Elisabeth - his first meeting with a world leader.
1981: Is shot at the Plaza of Peter, by the Turk Mehmet Ali Agca. Speaks against the Nuclear Weapons Race.
1982: Participates in a celebration with the leader of the Anglican Church - the first of many approaches towards other communities of faith.
1992: Has an operation to remove a tumor in his intestines.
1994: Establishes diplomatic relations with Israel.
1996: Appoints the first woman to lead a papal delegation (to the UN-conference about women), but opposes female priests.
1997: Publishes his own web site.
1998: Becomes the first Pope to visit Cuba.
2003: Celebrates his 25th anniversary as Pope.
2005: Is sent to hospital with severe breathing problems in february. In march, he is unable to participate in the Easter ceremonies, and his conditions is worsened. He dies in April.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted April 08, 2005 07:41 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 16 Apr 2005
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Hmm...
I haven't seen much talk about the Jesuit order. My suspicions were aroused after seeing John Paul II publicly scorn the leader of this order in Nicaragua shortly after getting off the plane. For the longest time I couldn't understand why this man would kneel the way he did. But after some lengthy reading, I believe I understand. I think the 'Liberation Theology' is highly questionable.
I found it interesting when looking up the history of Ignatius Loyola and his order. My opinion has been heavily enlightened. I now know why I've never been interested in becoming a Catholic follower. I think they have some good principles/concepts but some people take this religion equally as far as those islamic fundamentalists who destroyed our world trade center.
And I still don't see why people ignore some of the lesser attractive facets of being a pope. 'He is great, holy, etc, etc'... but what about the Sandinista revolution?
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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terje_the_ma...
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Disciple of Herodotus
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posted April 08, 2005 07:47 PM |
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Yes, what about the Sandinista Revolution? You can't just leave statements like that hanging in the air, Consis! The curiousity is killing me! Especially since you started this paragraph by commenting on the Jesuits...
And what do you mean, "The 'Liberation Theology' is highly questionable"? What's wrong with combining Marxism and Catholisism to fight poverty?
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Leo_Lion
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The 5th Element & 6th Sense!
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posted April 08, 2005 09:32 PM |
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I think that regardless of what the Pope achieved during his lifetime, it is really nice to see an outpouring of love & respect for someone, by people from all around the world.
I was moved to hear about millions of people flying to the Vatican for a chance to see the Pope rest in peace. Things like this give me a sense of pride in Humanity's spirit to love one another and show respect for people to whom we look up to.
Through his death, the Pope has been able to galvanize an image of peace, love, and fraternity between people from many different nations. He has brought people together, through their common love & respect for him...and that is a very rare & beautiful thing to see. I think that his death goes even further by bringing people together in their common appreciation of life itself!
It makes me think about my own mortality and how people will remember me. In my wildest dreams, I would love to be missed and mourned by all humans and leave behind a legacy of high moral standards, intelligence, compassion, & caring. I would love to see statues built commemorating my achievements and glorifying my existence.
But, these are just the dreams of one man and the reality remains that simply being part of another person's "swan song" and just being alive to see what is taking place around the Pope, John Paul II...is good enough for me.
It is with mixed emotions that I am coming to realize that other honourable & respected people will soon pass away, leaving behind the impressions that they made on the people & places around them. I am mostly referring to the Dalai Lama and also to Nelson Mandela. Both of these men are getting older and I am morbidly curious to see if their deaths will command as much of an outpouring as the Pope's has.
I'm not saying that I am looking forward to these events, but if the Pope's death is any indication of the impact one person's death can have on the entire world (see Jesus), then I am not afraid of the day when my 2 most revered mentors will leave us.
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*The end to no beginning...
*Take care, Leo
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted April 08, 2005 09:39 PM |
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Quote:
It is with mixed emotions that I am coming to realize that other honourable & respected people will soon pass away, leaving behind the impressions that they made on the people & places around them. I am mostly referring to the Dalai Lama and also to Nelson Mandela. Both of these men are getting older and I am morbidly curious to see if their deaths will command as much of an outpouring as the Pope's has.
They deserve more, imo.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted April 08, 2005 11:23 PM |
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That Is The Question
Who will be the next Pope? What will he do? Will he be Central/South American or African? Will he be Phillipino? Will he be none of those?
The greatest cause for humanity is in Africa. But even so, what could a pope do for this new era of science, medicine, and space travel? John Paul II was a great man for his time but now that time is over. What is next?
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Plexus22
Known Hero
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posted April 09, 2005 03:46 AM |
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Well, while were on the topic, what could any man in a great position of power do in this new era of technology?
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Svarog
Honorable
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statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted April 09, 2005 04:18 AM |
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Quote:
Yes, what about the Sandinista Revolution? You can't just leave statements like that hanging in the air, Consis! The curiousity is killing me! Especially since you started this paragraph by commenting on the Jesuits...
Yeah, what about it? Dont tell me the Pope supported the Sandanistas? Did he?
Oh, and about catholic fundamentalism. Fine, i dont deny it exists, though relating it with Loyola is a "bit" outdated maybe, dont u think consis. I think there's more fundamentalism in various American protestant denominations than in catholicism nowdays, which is generally more traditional and conservative, but not at all fundamentalist I'd say.
I restrained from commenting on the pope, but terje didnt have to mention marxism there, did he?
Anyway, I was hoping to the last moment he'd write in his testament that he wanted to be burried wrapped in a huge condom, but no. The man failed to use his last chance of repentence.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Leo_Lion
Honorable
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The 5th Element & 6th Sense!
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posted April 09, 2005 07:57 AM |
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Quote:
Well, while were on the topic, what could any man in a great position of power do in this new era of technology?
He could KIS it!
Keep It Simple
I believe the answer to this applies to all people on earth, and not only to its leaders...be they political, religious, financial, cultural, etc. To me, the way to deal with any new technology or phenomenon in life, is to consider the element with an open-mind, caring heart, and free spirit.
Avoiding prejudices is also very important, but these can always be overcome after the fact. There is a saying that declares:
"The more things get complicated, the simpler the solution."
In this day & age, where genetic manipulation, hydrogen energy, and cell phones are on the forefront of technology, we find our daily lives being altered at every level, whether it is in regards to travel, eating, medicine, communication, or clothing. And as more products & procedures are invented on a regular basis, it might seem like no one knows where to stand on every issue...moraly speaking, of course.
Well, if a new law is passed every time some has an accident driving their car with a cell phone or has an allergic reaction to a breakthrough/life-saving medicine, then are we any better off...or should we shun progress altogether? Should we live our lives with so little risk that simply breaking a nail will require immediate surgery?!
The beauty in life is living people!!!
Risk, change, & progress are all one & the same ...intertwined...so, why is there always a need to try and control everything around us? You could say "power" is the driving force behind such foolishness, but the search for "power" ultimately leads to destruction. You're not living if you're busy trying to control everyone else's lives, right?!
The more complex things get, the simpler the solution should be...So, I say: "Let things figure themselves out!" This might sound stupid, but if applied on every level of our existence, then it just might work.
Law, Money, Religion, Government, etc. were all created to give certain people the power over the lives of others. Well, I say that there isn't always a balance in these systems and that ultimately, some people will seek to use these sytems to gain "power" over others. And once they have done that, they will essentially have stopped living. If they were to just "go with the flow" and "let things take their natural course", then these people might actually enjoy being alive.
So, just because technology is presently advancing at a quicker pace than ever before, it does not necessarily mean that MORE CONTROL is the answer. Forgoing technology altogether isn't necessary either. The answer to handling these things is just not to handle them...let them go out into the world and find their place. Things will eventually balance themselves out or fizzle into obscurity, as they always do.
And if all else fails, just look to those who you know that have remained the same throughout all of the changes. Look to those who speak of great progress of the human heart & soul, not of the latest innovation in machine washable clothes. Basially, the essence of existence will never be affected by technology, so you don't always need to worry about it. Just take care of yourself and the people you love...as humans have been doing for thousands of years...and you'll see that everything else will work itself out.
Love and kindness are universal & eternal, so you don't need to know all of the latest gadgets to be considered wise. Just look at the Pope, Nelson Mandela, the Dalai Lama, or many other great "thinkers & feelers"...their messages do not focus on new revelations through technology; they focus on new revelations through yourself & through love.
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*The end to no beginning...
*Take care, Leo
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Consis
Honorable
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Of Ruby
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posted April 09, 2005 09:01 AM |
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Leo_Lion,
Sorry my friend, but I'll have to disagree with your outlook. I think simplicity is for the masses while complexity is for the leaders.
I'd go with you to any old beer-joint and try out new tasting beers. But I wouldn't go(regardless of how much I really wanted to) if I were trying to be a leader. Women need more equality, abortion needs more debate, and cloning has only begun to touch the surface. These are concepts and practices that I think must be looked at with careful complex consideration. One wrong decision and millions of lives could be affected. I have heard that same saying from the mouth of the creator of the Kalashnikov assault rifle(AK-47). He said that was his philosophy when creating this gun that most of the world now uses.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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