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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Greece - Macedonia - F.Y.R.O.M.
Thread: Greece - Macedonia - F.Y.R.O.M. This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
Lith-Maethor
Lith-Maethor


Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
posted April 19, 2005 08:11 PM

Quote:
Oki, just to fill you up with something fresh. Today in Melbourne, Australian football fans with Macednian and Greek origin displayed their barbarism by causing a mass fight and injuring few policemen in the process. The cause was precisely what we discuss here. If you ask me, they should ban them both from the league and learn once and for all what happens when they try to transplant Balkanism where it doesnt grow.


you define such acts as balkanism... yet you also define our argument here as such... does this mean you consider trying to protect your national identity the same as being a barbarian with iq on the negative side?

Quote:
Khaelo sent me an interesting IM, but I thought since there are Americans/Candaians reading this who cant grasp how primitive we can be, to reply to her publicly (i think shes alright with it). Here goes:

-- IM follows --



you think she's alright with it... next time please make sure she is before sharing... its called netiquette

Quote:
I think Im gonna throw up if I read once again about owning history, long-standing nations, me being bible freak (lol thats at least a new one), us forbidding poor Greeks right of self-determination etc. As I dont consider these comments worth for a reply and as I already gave my argument with which to oppose this, I wont follow the rule that whoever post last wins the argument. People have brains (at least those who do), read and understand.


so according to you we don't own history because? ...oh yes, because other nations take part in it... but by this logic, i do not own the story of my life because my parents, relatives, friends, colleagues, neighbours, even my freakin' mailman takes part in it... yes, i see your point... as for you being a bible freak... if i thought that, i would have stopped arguing long ago... but do tell me... how is it possible you have every right of self determination yet we don't?

Quote:
As for Consis; you really seem to enjoy your role of geostrategical anlyst. Unfortunately your perspective seems to be medieval (or American, the same ). Im not mad at you however; its not your first time to run out with unfounded opinions.
Your theory would have had sense, if there was a sizeable Macednian minority in Greece at the present. Unfortunately, there hardly is (estimated 10,000 would openly declare, but we wouldnt know as there is no census for them). That certainly cant compose any threat to Greece, and considering the pace of silent assimilation, in 10 years I believe there will be only few hundred Macednians in Greek (Aegean) Macednia. I didnt repeat for nothng that Macednia is in no position to pose any threat for Greek sovereignity (both millitary, culturally, economically). The other way around is more real, especially since Macednia underwent an economic crisis under the Greek economic embargo in the 90s, and there was a joint statement at the time when Yugoslavia was falling apart by Milosevic and the Greek primeminister then that Macednia is a destabilizing factor on the Balkans.
Also, Macednian nationalists didnt invent the name for the nationality in 1991 so as to gain access to the Aegean! Macedonia became a brand for a nation in second half of 19th century, when it was undivided under the Ottoman Empire, so they didnt have to invent anything in order to get sea access.
Later in history however, when the Macednian population in Greece was sizable, there was a case for fear. Following WW2, Yugoslavia did raise the Macednian question in Greece. However, following the Tito-Stalin break-up, Yugoslavia lost intrest to help the revolutionary cause of the Macednians who faught for independence under the Communists during the Greek Civil War (and were under USSR patronage), and they lost the war. Tito made a secret pact with the West to keep relations with Greece stable (meaning to give up the Macednian question) in exchange for Western support. Following that, Greece had a clear way to finish the assimilation they started decades ago, so under the rule of the fascist disctator Metaxas they banished many Macedonians out of Greece (80,000 banished [Here are my grandparents included]; 21,000 dead [Here included three of my grandparents siblings, and my grandads dad] in the war), burned their villiges, and assimilated those that stayed there.
Now, Consis, wouldnt you call this atrocity? To decimate an entire population from their country? And now what do we get on top of that? Because we are decimated, we cant claim openly a national identity, since we are a threat to the decimators.
Also, Im amazed how many of you act out some diplomatic indifference. I mean, fine, I undertand not taking members side, but it seems to me that any normal person who understands politics, and shares the values of freedom and democracy even a little bit, is obliged to morally condemn certain practices by governments who abuse political power and influence, and on top of that disrespect minority rights, and support those whose rights have been denied.


while consis was a bit (or a lot) stretching in logic, anybody who has studied balkan history will see it is not all that far from the truth or possible futures (yes, we balkans were never big on acting rationally)

Quote:
Lith mentioned few times that the name Macedonia is a brand for territory, and cant be used for national identity. Well, a name of a nation somehow has to arise, and in history in most of the cases they took it after the territory they lived on. So, this clearly falls in water.
Quote:
and if you did some research you would notice that Macedonia at least was considered greek during the days of Ancient Macedonians and for most of the time since, if you asked the people that lived there what they are, they would never use the word "macedonian"

And while I was exploring Greek Macedonia to count the minorities there, i suppose you got back in time and did a poll there, huh?


no, i simply let the ancients do that for me... its funny what one can find in those ancient texts... as for nations taking the name of their territory... i think i have already covered this time and time again... what percentage of macedonia is your country on again?

Quote:
An example of source seperating Macedonians and Greeks would be Sozomenus (IV-V AD) who concerning the Christianization during Constantine writes: The Hellens, the Macednians and the Illyrians started to accept Christs faith without fear.
The scripture from Paul in Acts of the Apostols:16 reads: During the night Paul had a revelation: one Macedonian was standing in front of him and begged him: Come to Macedonia and help us! After that revelation we set off fro Macednia right away realizing that God calls us there to preach the Good news. (Now look what you made me do. Quote the Bible. I feel filthy now. )


shame on you ...while there is a bible quote countering your claim, i will not share here (feel free to pm me) as i don't feel the bible is the most reliable of sources...

Quote:
Whether you consider yourself a minority, its up to you to decide, but dont speak in the ame of all Vlachs in your country, because I know there are such who declare themselves as such, and want their rights to be respected. Or what? Is it a world conspiracy of USA and European Council to invent minorities only to (have no idea what)
Besides, identification with Thessaly, is not the same, because Thessaly is a region; Vlach, as I know from experience, some people consider to be ethnicity. Theres no region called Vlachia.
Anyway, lith, honestly, could you answer some questions for me:
-Do u recognize there is a Vlach minority in Greece?
-Do u recognize there is a Macednian (Slavic) minority in Greece?
-Are their minority rights respected?


actually, i am in position to speak for all Vlachs... want to know why this is not as childish as it sounds? because a few years back (not sure if it was before or after yugoslavia went buhbye) there was a movement(?) that tried to pass vlachs as a minority... it was countered by a group of professors, one of them being a friend of the family... two (or three) books were the result of this and they will be in my hands soon... it was later found out that the few who started this ridiculous claim were acting out of greed and promises made by... yugoslavians... wow... funny little thing life is... and to answer your questions...
- no i do not recognize any vlach minority in greece... no more than i recognize a RolePlaying minority in greece... oh my, we do have our own language and culture as well... wow...
- no i do not recognize a macedonian minority in greece, because i am a macedonian, but lets just say i take "macedonian" as you mean it... again, no i do not recognize such a minority, so far i have heard of no claims whatsoever within the country... and we hear all sorts of strange claims lately...

Quote:
Consis, relevant questions in the end. I'd rather Lith answered them first.
Although, i dont think the turks have anything to do with it (or would like to).


whether we like this or not, they do... the same way all balkan countries do (no, i do not consider turkey a balkan country) it is the nature of the beast in these parts... you are not that naive as to believe otherwise...

in any case, what this argument feels like to me so far

- "this is a chair"
- "no, its a table, see? you can put stuff on"
- "maybe, but its still a chair"
- "its a table, see? you just have to get rid of that strange thing that looks like a chair back"

i would have given up a while ago... but i am too stubborn and had too much lately... not in the mood to see my country's history getting raped again... or letting about 3000 people and a few clones without hearing the other side of the argument
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Khaelo
Khaelo


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
posted April 19, 2005 09:41 PM

for the record

The IM was not overly personal, and Svarog's answer may help others as well.  I don't mind his answering it here.

And thank you for taking the time to reply, Svarog.  I'm still confused, of course.    But this reminds me of a quote one of my religion profs has hanging on his office door:

"We have not succeeded in answering all of your problems. The answers we have found only serve to raise a whole set of new questions. In some ways we feel we are as confused as ever, but we believe we are confused on a higher level and about more important things."

No idea who said it, but it's a great quote.  Yay for improved confusion.  
*return to lurk mode*
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disguised as a responsible adult

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Silverblade
Silverblade


Known Hero
Notorious Homo Erectus
posted April 19, 2005 09:46 PM
Edited By: Silverblade on 19 Apr 2005

@Lith, aderfe exeis dosei resta. Xose trela exeis k tis gnoseis k ta myala. Makari na mporousa na xoso k ego toso trela alla den mou ka8etai o xronos. Synexise k panta an xreiasteis kalypsi edo 8a eimai aderfe..

Svarog I have found so many flaws in your point of you and what you write about everything I am so confused to start writing replies. Anyway I support and confirm lith's saying once again since apparently we have read the same things.. Of course I thank you for answering those questions.. once again you confirm what I had in mind for you. Ah Alexander means the one who fends the (enemy's) men as first explain or the one who protects (what you said) his men (by removing them from danger or sth) and that name is found in ancient Sparta in Peloponyssos as a name for a minor war godess "Alexandra". I just don't get it..Sp Alexandros is a greek word eh? Oh my god a Macedonian non greek king gave his son a greek name? You understand what you write? Why nowhere is written that Alexander's army spoke 2 different languages? I mean the ancient macedonians should speak macedoniac eh? How about the greek writng inside the macedonian tombs. I have been inside 4 of them (king Phillips too) and we have with greek letter the word "Macedonia" curved in the tomb's walls.. How did that happened ther should be at least something written in macedoniac shouldn't it? Or the Macedonian kings decided "we comand the greeks now let us toss everything from our civilization and keep only what the greeks have wrote besides in that way we can show them that we are truly Philellen ? Not even the Romans did such things for god's sake..

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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted April 19, 2005 11:47 PM
Edited By: Consis on 19 Apr 2005

Khaelo Brought Up A Good Point

For any Americans reading this discussion, I can help you understand better.

America has ethnic minorities. We have so-called "African Americans, Mexican American/Hispanic, Native American, etc".

For each minority group within the United States of America we have many different programs and institutions that afford many different kinds of benefits that try to help these minority individuals that are seeking to education and civil-related work. Civil jobs are jobs run by your local governments such as fire department, police, etc. For each civil job the employer is required to hire/give jobs to a pre-determined number of ethnic people who meet the qualifications of the job. So let's say a position opens itself up on the fire department. The fire department has a total of 10 jobs(hypothetic). Depending on your local area, the majority of these jobs will likely go to white/caucasian people. Let's say 7 jobs are currently being occupied by whites. The fire department then has an obligation(depending on your local laws) to retain the remaining 3 jobs for ethnic minorities that are qualified for the job. It's all sort of supposed to reflect, in percentages, the makeup of your community. So if your community is 70% white, 20% Hispanic, and 5% Black, and 5% other then a civil job would likely be required to reflect this standing.

We americans are very ignorantly skin color-oriented. Hispanics are generally tan; white people are white; blacks black, etc. So if you are an African American and you walk in to get hired for a civil job then the employer need merely look at the color of your skin. No proof is needed. The boss needs 5% African American work force; you meet the job requirments; and your skin is black then you're in. Greece and Macedonia is a part of the world that has been fully integrated(skin color) for thousands of years. There really isn't a focus on what the color of a person's skin looks like. As Svarog said, ethnicities are based more on language and customs. The confusion of a non-american region of the world like Greece and Macedonia is that they also have minorities but the major difference is in getting proof. In order to qualify for certain ethnic-related programs in that part of the world one must prove with birth certificates, relatives, and language much in the same way that a Native American must do to qualify for certain scholarships to college. You can't simply walk into a place and say your are of some particular minority without proof. The American system tends to lean toward skin color as a means of clear proof while this is not at all the case in Greece and Macedonia where skin color represents very little in the way of national birth origins.

Also, a very important aspect of being a minority is government recognition. Here in the U.S. it goes without saying that Black people(again the color schism) were in fact a minority and being oppressed. But over in Greece minorites change with the times. At first, ancient Greeks were the majority. Then Romans were the majority and Greeks became the minority. Then Persians(Ottoman?) became the majority. And Greeks are once again the majority. For someone to say he/she is a minority living in Greece, they must not only prove that they are connected but the government must officially recognize the ethnicity you claim as being a minority. That takes time in some cases.

So if you are an American and read nothing else but my last paragraph then remember that we think more about skin color and require less ethnic proof than Greece and Macedonia. And we don't need to recognize a minority. If a person who is speaking the language and generally looks ethnic then that's what the hiring employer will see them as; no papers needed for the most part.
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted April 20, 2005 12:53 AM
Edited By: terje_the_mad_wizard on 19 Apr 2005

Quote:
Well, ethnicity isnt quite like race, it’s much more subtle than that.

Actually, ethnicity is one of the most advanced and hard-to-grasp sociological concepts in existence, meaning the relationship between two groups who think they have different culture and identity from each other. This concept is supposed to put the spotlight at what happens when groups with different culture gets in touch with each other.

In common speech, though, the word’s been ****** up into being nothing but a covert word for “race”. When someone say “ethnicity” these days, it’s usually because they

a) mean race, but have reasons not to (be it so-called “political correctness” or a hidden agenda – e.g. racism)

or

b) doesn’t really have a clue what it means, but have heard it used in relation to “nations” and culture.
Quote:
so according to you we don't own history because? ...oh yes, because other nations take part in it... but by this logic, i do not own the story of my life because my parents, relatives, friends, colleagues, neighbours, even my freakin' mailman takes part in it... yes, i see your point

Of course, I do not know what Svarog’s thinking, but when others than only you participates, it ceases to be only your history. History is collective property; it belongs not to a single person or a single group, but to the entire humanity.

So yes, your mailman does “own” part of your history.

Quote:
what percentage of macedonia is your country on again?

What does this have to do with anything?
It occupies a part of the geographical area known as Macedonia, and if not the largest part of it, then a large enough part to “give them rights” to claim the name Macedonians for themselves.


The way I see this, it’s not so much a matter of the Macedonians trying to “steal” the history of the poor Greeks and Bulgarians, as it is the matter of the Bulgarians and the Greeks attempting to refuse the Macedonians their past and future role in the history of the region.


EDIT: Seems I messed up the concepts myself...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
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Defreni
Defreni


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 20, 2005 12:55 AM

Quote:
@Lith, aderfe exeis dosei resta. Xose trela exeis k tis gnoseis k ta myala. Makari na mporousa na xoso k ego toso trela alla den mou ka8etai o xronos. Synexise k panta an xreiasteis kalypsi edo 8a eimai aderfe..

Svarog I have found so many flaws in your point of you and what you write about everything I am so confused to start writing replies. Anyway I support and confirm lith's saying once again since apparently we have read the same things.. Of course I thank you for answering those questions.. once again you confirm what I had in mind for you. Ah Alexander means the one who fends the (enemy's) men as first explain or the one who protects (what you said) his men (by removing them from danger or sth) and that name is found in ancient Sparta in Peloponyssos as a name for a minor war godess "Alexandra". I just don't get it..Sp Alexandros is a greek word eh? Oh my god a Macedonian non greek king gave his son a greek name? You understand what you write? Why nowhere is written that Alexander's army spoke 2 different languages? I mean the ancient macedonians should speak macedoniac eh? How about the greek writng inside the macedonian tombs. I have been inside 4 of them (king Phillips too) and we have with greek letter the word "Macedonia" curved in the tomb's walls.. How did that happened ther should be at least something written in macedoniac shouldn't it? Or the Macedonian kings decided "we comand the greeks now let us toss everything from our civilization and keep only what the greeks have wrote besides in that way we can show them that we are truly Philellen ? Not even the Romans did such things for god's sake..



Well looking at the polemics in this thread wether Alexander the Great was Macedonian or Greek is rather funny for any historian who has no stake in the enterprise.
Phillip (Alexanders father) had political aspirations in unifying Greece under his rule, therefore it was in his interest to be recognised as Greek. Offcourse his opponents mainly the city-state of Sparta was vehemently opposing the view that Phillip was Greek. Offcourse the victors write the History.....
Conspiracy-theories from long ago
My main point being that if you want to use any regions history as an argument for what is correct today, you need to be very carefull. Because first of all we simply dont have all the facts, we have sources. 2 very good sources but also very troublesome seen from a historians point of view has allready been mentioned in this thread.
"The Bible" and Herodotus "Histories".
Why are they troublesome one might ask?
Well both have an agenda, and if you get people to read historical "facts" out of these, you have at best speculations, at worst outright propaganda.
It would be very interesting if a group of people, lets call them "Minoans" suddenly popped up in the media and claimed that Greece wasnt really entitled to the name Greece, because those that call Greece for Greece are in reality "Archaians" who descended from central Europe sometime around 2000 BC and brutally conquered the booming civilization around the Aegean, and stole the word "Greece".
This is offcourse ludicrous, and merely a reminder that   all countries and regions today have their own myths about their particular countrys origin and history. And if you really want to know something about your own country, its sometimes wise to look for history books written by people who have absolutely no stake in your country.

Look at whats happening right now in China, where people are protesting in front of the Japanese embassy, outraged that japanese history school books are talking about the conquest or invasion of Nanjing, instead of the massacre of Nanjing.

Oh, and one more thing.
The Byzantine Empire is actually the continuation of the Roman Empire which was split into two independently controlled empires during the 4. century AC. West-Roman and East-Roman Empire. The East-Roman empire became the Byzantine Empire not long after.
In here is also a reminder of not swallowing historical sources raw. Im talking about the "Constantin gift letter" which states that Constantin the Great (Who moved the Roman Capitol from Rome to his newly founded city of Constantinople) was given the site of Constantinople from the Roman Bishop. This latter turned out to be a fraud, merely designed to enhance the Church`s legal right to lordship of Rome.

Regards

Defreni
 

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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted April 20, 2005 06:16 AM
Edited By: Consis on 20 Apr 2005

Another Explanation:

Let's say there are two people of "Black" skin color.

1. They are American and walk into an office together to ask for a civil job.

2. The hiring employer looks at the driver's liscenses and sees they are both American.

3. He doesn't ask what minority group they belong to. He automatically assumes they are African American even if one of them was born in the U.K. or Puerto Rico.

4. He hires them both and puts a mark in on his notes to show that he now has two African American employees.

~This is American skin color fixation/schism.

Let's say you have two "black" people again.

1. They are living in Greece. They both walk into an office and ask for employment.

2. The Greek employer immediately wants to see identification and ethnic association.

3. After carefully looking over both of their official documents he then looks to a referendum created by his employer detailing which ehtnicities can be hired to that company. It's not a federal law unless specifically stated.

4. After carefully comparing ethnicities to his employer-made reference card, he then decides who to hire.

The bottom line:
Two black men in America are two African American men(otherwise coinsidered a black person) even if one wasn't even born in the U.S. and doesn't practice the same common cultural practices.

Two black men in Greece need official papers. Those papers are used to decide the nationality, birthplace, etc.

America = Instant/color
Balkan/Mediterranean = need time/proof

This is a totally different mindset. If one of these black men claimed he was of Macedonian origin, and it even claimed he was such on his papers, then he would still not qualify for minority status because the Greek government does not officially recognize this group as a minority.
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted April 21, 2005 04:59 AM

Quote:
you define such acts as balkanism... yet you also define our argument here as such... does this mean you consider trying to protect your national identity the same as being a barbarian with iq on the negative side?

No, what I defined as barbarism was the “authentic” Balkan way in which they did that – with violence. U know, Lith, I’m pretty much pleased with the tone of this discussion, and although to be honest I don’t think it very much reflects democratic values, it’s still a discussion, with mutual respect and without flaming. I’ve seen all too many forums where two different Balkan nationals meet and its really an all-out verbal war, disguisting. Kuddos to you, man.
Quote:
In order to qualify for certain ethnic-related programs in that part of the world one must prove with birth certificates, relatives, and language much in the same way that a Native American must do to qualify for certain scholarships to college. You can't simply walk into a place and say your are of some particular minority without proof.

According to international standards and conventions, national identity is an entirely subjective decision and a matter of personal feeling. Unlike what the international standards say, the Greek government doesn’t recognize the existance of minorities within their own country (as truthfully reflected by Lith’s attitude, who simply deleted from existance two imortant ethnic groups in Northern Greece), and even goes further to negate the existance of nations also outside their borders (which could be interpreted as cultural aggression). In this way, they put themselves in place to decide for something which by all standards should be each person/ethnic group own decision. Logically, there are no ethnic-related programs in Greece, and there are no certificates which confirm someone’s identity, the very which is not officially recognized. Prove as much as you want, you still wont be recognized and granted your rights.
By contrast, in Macedonia, a non-EU country, minorities have percentage quotas for employment in every public field, they are mentioned in the preamble of the Constitution as constitutional elements of the country, their languages are official in communities which reach 20% the population of that community etc. It only stays unclear when they tell us we should struggle to meet the standards of the EU, should we also aim for the “high” standards of minority rights practiced in Greece or no?
Quote:
But over in Greece minorites change with the times. At first, ancient Greeks were the majority. Then Romans were the majority and Greeks became the minority. Then Persians(Ottoman?) became the majority. And Greeks are once again the majority. For someone to say he/she is a minority living in Greece, they must not only prove that they are connected but the government must officially recognize the ethnicity you claim as being a minority.

First of all, the Romans and ottomans werent majority when they ruled with Greece, and much less the Persians (?!). Second, the principle that the government must officially recognize the ethnicity before anyone claims a national identity is completely authoritarian and undemocratic, as i said.

I said it once, I’ll say it again. Pre-19th century history hasn’t got any connection to our legal and moral right to call ourselves Macednians. That’s why I try to transfer the discussion about Alexanders ethnicity in the other thread. Also, the quotes from ancient sources (where the Bible, as unreliable as it is, is included as well) were aimed only to show lith facts he might have overlooked, which point to the distinct nature between Greeks and Ancient Macednians. How does that connect to the name problem? It doesnt. Even if science proves Ancient Macednians were completely Greek, or anything else, we’d still have the same right to define our nation by the name of the territory on which it evolved and where it dominated during the past 1500 years. Being the same territory, its natural that the Ancient Macednians participated in the ethnogenesis of the Macedonian nation even by a minor degree, so it could only have a relevance for our nation to determine which ancient ethnic elements took part in that process (Hellenic or other), but that’s entirely scientific and unrelated to the artificial political problem that the name of my country is.
So, again, Silverblades “refutals” here.

Also, lith, how would you answer the questions Consis asked? What do you think the future actions of greece will be/should be? What do you expect the Macednian side to do? How do you think it all will resolve? You know that we are in the process of acquiring the status “a country candidate for membership in EU” which is expected to come at the end of the year. The EU being protective to Greece naturally says that it’s an issue which is to be settled between the two countries before Macednia gets the candidateship. Do you think Greece will use the right to veto the voting for awarding this status to my country, which will be clear sign that the reasons for that are political and would put Greece in an awkward situation to hold the Union hostage to Greek national (chauvinistic, according to most EU diplomats) interests, and would be a major blow against my country’s efforts to meet all the required standards to get closer to getting a membership. European experts say that its unlikely to happen, but also the time presses us to work on a mutually acceptable solution which is impossible to come at the moment (or likely in the future). If Greece persists on using the veto power, one scenario is that the candidateship may be postponed for few months, but hardly more than that. The second scenario is that the international community will use pressure to either impose a new name for Macedonia or force greece to vote for the candidateship. If no one wants to cool down, then the country will be stuck in the euro-integrationist process due to political reasons, the very which are considered should be the motor for the process (since economic condition is bad enough) and initiate economic recovery later. This will certainly not be good both for greece and Macedonia. One things sure, its gonna be a hot political winter for us two.
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted April 21, 2005 06:22 AM

Hmm

Svarog present a very powerful, compelling, and serious argument. If what he says is true then Greece has no minorities or programs with which to integrate them into society? If this is true then I don't know what to say. It is not a good thing.

This is a vital part of my own country's recognition for past transgressions involving racial oppression. We have "equal opportunity" laws because the majority of this country agrees our ancestral bigotry was morally wrong and inhumane. Many Americans are ashamed of our once national slavery laws. I believe President Clinton gave the first speech saying "we are sorry for slavery" in San Diego. I thought he was an idiot for saying that. Not even his grandfather was around for legal slavery. But then I can't ignore American history either.

Svarog also points out that his own country is very interested in complying with E.U. standards for minority equality. If this is true then it makes Macedonia look better, on the international stage, than Greece.
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Lith-Maethor
Lith-Maethor


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posted April 21, 2005 07:41 AM

...

Quote:
No, what I defined as barbarism was the authentic Balkan way in which they did that  with violence. U know, Lith, Im pretty much pleased with the tone of this discussion, and although to be honest I dont think it very much reflects democratic values, its still a discussion, with mutual respect and without flaming. Ive seen all too many forums where two different Balkan nationals meet and its really an all-out verbal war, disguisting. Kuddos to you, man.


now... if i acted upon the first impulse it wouldn't get me anywhere... (not to mention i still haven't found your address ) so arguing like civilized people is the way to go... glad to see all sides keep the tone relatively low...

Quote:
According to international standards and conventions, national identity is an entirely subjective decision and a matter of personal feeling. Unlike what the international standards say, the Greek government doesnt recognize the existance of minorities within their own country (as truthfully reflected by Liths attitude, who simply deleted from existance two imortant ethnic groups in Northern Greece), and even goes further to negate the existance of nations also outside their borders (which could be interpreted as cultural aggression). In this way, they put themselves in place to decide for something which by all standards should be each person/ethnic group own decision. Logically, there are no ethnic-related programs in Greece, and there are no certificates which confirm someones identity, the very which is not officially recognized. Prove as much as you want, you still wont be recognized and granted your rights.


but here is where you are wrong... as i have already mentioned its the "minorities" that oppose and beat down to oblivion any attempt made to be labeled as such... its not as if Vlachs for example try to say we are a minority and the government kicks them back ...and so that you know... what you would define as "minority cultures" we call "greek tradition" ...it may vary from region to region.. but find me a country with half the size of greece (and we are not that big as a country) that doesn't have a plethora of customs...

Quote:
By contrast, in Macedonia, a non-EU country, minorities have percentage quotas for employment in every public field, they are mentioned in the preamble of the Constitution as constitutional elements of the country, their languages are official in communities which reach 20% the population of that community etc. It only stays unclear when they tell us we should struggle to meet the standards of the EU, should we also aim for the high standards of minority rights practiced in Greece or no?


well, good for you, you are civilized... if i see any minorities being suppressed around, i will be sure to see their rights protected ...and i bet my life the same goes for the majority of greeks

Quote:
First of all, the Romans and ottomans werent majority when they ruled with Greece, and much less the Persians (?!). Second, the principle that the government must officially recognize the ethnicity before anyone claims a national identity is completely authoritarian and undemocratic, as i said.


we agree on the first part, romans, ottomans and persians never were majority in greece... on the second part now... how do you expect the greek government to recognize a macedonian ethnicity, when that would put almost (or more than) 1/3 of the population in it? ...and how do you grant someone minority rights when they say they belong to a minority you - and that 1/3 of the population - don't recognize?

Quote:
I said it once, Ill say it again. Pre-19th century history hasnt got any connection to our legal and moral right to call ourselves Macednians. Thats why I try to transfer the discussion about Alexanders ethnicity in the other thread. Also, the quotes from ancient sources (where the Bible, as unreliable as it is, is included as well) were aimed only to show lith facts he might have overlooked, which point to the distinct nature between Greeks and Ancient Macednians. How does that connect to the name problem? It doesnt. Even if science proves Ancient Macednians were completely Greek, or anything else, wed still have the same right to define our nation by the name of the territory on which it evolved and where it dominated during the past 1500 years. Being the same territory, its natural that the Ancient Macednians participated in the ethnogenesis of the Macedonian nation even by a minor degree, so it could only have a relevance for our nation to determine which ancient ethnic elements took part in that process (Hellenic or other), but thats entirely scientific and unrelated to the artificial political problem that the name of my country is.
So, again, Silverblades refutals here.


you discard all history before 19th century... yet you say that even if ancient macedonians are proven to be either greek or whatever, you will still have the right to use the name because you lived in the area for a little less than 1500 years... shouldn't that be 100 years? since all history before the 19th century is irrelevant and all...

Quote:
Also, lith, how would you answer the questions Consis asked? What do you think the future actions of greece will be/should be? What do you expect the Macednian side to do? How do you think it all will resolve? You know that we are in the process of acquiring the status a country candidate for membership in EU which is expected to come at the end of the year. The EU being protective to Greece naturally says that its an issue which is to be settled between the two countries before Macednia gets the candidateship. Do you think Greece will use the right to veto the voting for awarding this status to my country, which will be clear sign that the reasons for that are political and would put Greece in an awkward situation to hold the Union hostage to Greek national (chauvinistic, according to most EU diplomats) interests, and would be a major blow against my countrys efforts to meet all the required standards to get closer to getting a membership. European experts say that its unlikely to happen, but also the time presses us to work on a mutually acceptable solution which is impossible to come at the moment (or likely in the future). If Greece persists on using the veto power, one scenario is that the candidateship may be postponed for few months, but hardly more than that. The second scenario is that the international community will use pressure to either impose a new name for Macedonia or force greece to vote for the candidateship. If no one wants to cool down, then the country will be stuck in the euro-integrationist process due to political reasons, the very which are considered should be the motor for the process (since economic condition is bad enough) and initiate economic recovery later. This will certainly not be good both for greece and Macedonia. One things sure, its gonna be a hot political winter for us two.


there is not even a hint of doubt the future will be hot... whoever thinks otherwise should spend some xp to up intelligence and wits (sorry, the rp-er in me bleeds here) ...there is also no doubt both countries will do whats best for them... yes, i suspect we will use the veto and hold you from joining for as long as possible with or without a solution... personally i would like to see this resolved asap (not going to happen however since i can only accept a name with no "macedonia" in) so that we can go on with our lives and deal with other important issues ...this situation is taxing on both countries and their people... creating a ton of problems for both... i am sure you agree however that its not something that can be ignored or left for later...
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


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posted April 24, 2005 09:11 PM

Quote:
but find me a country with half the size of greece (and we are not that big as a country) that doesn't have a plethora of customs...

Iceland!




Sorry about the spam...
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Consis
Consis


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posted May 03, 2005 07:56 PM

I Feel So Enlightened Now =D

After more reading, I'm convinced that the Macedonian nationality is inherently about the conquest of Greece. Whether you agree that Alexander was Macedonian-born or not, the fact remains that when his father King Philip II died, Alexander was advised not to try to conquer Greece. Somehow and someway I feel very strongly that there is a very real concern for Greeks fearing the legacy behind the Macedonian name.

Think about it from a worst-case scenario. The very worst thing to fear behind a reborn Macedonia is the acquisition of Greek lands in the name of re-uniting ancestral peoples and territory.

But what if that is all in the past? What if the Macedonians are simply using their ancestry for inner personal strength? What if the national legacy sees a new world with a global perspective? This seems very possible in today's world especially after having been trodden upon by the soviet boot. Perhaps the new Macedonia seeks their warrior heritage not for conquest but for personal and national unity much in the same way the Japanese have changed their Samurai legacy from warring Dimeo to individual courage and inner strength of character. I suppose time will tell but one thing remains certain: the Macedonians must recognize the very real concerns Greece has. They must somehow seek to seperate the old Macedonians from the new. Peaceful coexistence might be a good place to start.
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Wolfman
Wolfman


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posted May 17, 2005 01:51 AM

Speaking of the Balkans...

Kosovo Music Video

Parody of Kokomo by the Beach Boys.  Note: it does has a little language that may not be suitable for some viewers, proceed with caution.  But, really funny.

Crazy Norwegians, what'll they think of next?
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Svarog
Svarog


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posted May 17, 2005 02:02 AM

Hey, I've seen this one b4. Couple of gay-ish guys expressing their sentiments about the region and their mission there. Lame indeed..
Wrong forum, i'd say.
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Vlaad
Vlaad


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posted May 18, 2005 06:50 AM

Quote:
Speaking of the Balkans...

Kosovo Music Video

Parody of Kokomo by the Beach Boys.  Note: it does has a little language that may not be suitable for some viewers, proceed with caution.  But, really funny.

Crazy Norwegians, what'll they think of next?

Yesterday their ambassador officially apologized to Serbia for making fun of Kosovo situation in this video.
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


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posted May 18, 2005 06:16 PM
Edited By: terje_the_mad_wizard on 25 May 2005

As a Norwegian, I feel I can do nothing but apologize, as I heard some of the rather offensive lyrics. Also, these were the guys who made a "humorous music video" where they drove around their area and shot dogs. It was a clip where you could see a little boy standing next to the soldiers crying, while they killed his dog. In another clip, they shot a dog that was tied up in front of his doggie house, inside a fenced garden.

Some people shouldn't be allowed into the armed forces...

EDIT: I know I have been supporting the Macedonians' claim to their name so far in this thread, but after seeing their petty excuse of a contribution in the Eurovision Song Contest this weekend, I've started to question their right to call themselves a nation at all...
Not that Greece was much better, but hey. At least the Greek woman (who was Swedish) didn't wear a pink jacket, unlike the guy who sang for Macedonia.


But on the other hand:
"The Greek are like small boys, they have no history, and they know nothing about history."
 ~Francis Bacon.
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Svarog
Svarog


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statue-loving necrophiliac
posted May 29, 2005 04:35 AM

HEEEYY! We did have three snowty chics showing their "little cats" if you looked carwfully enough at right camera angles. Thats gotta be some contribution for our diplomatic fight for the name.
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


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posted May 29, 2005 08:21 PM
Edited By: terje_the_mad_wizard on 29 May 2005

They did? Damn, I was too busy wiping the tears of laughter and clouds of alcohol from my eyes to notice such vital details.

If more people had been watching in sober conditions, I have no doubts that Macedonia would have been recognised by Greece now.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.

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hellwitch
hellwitch


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posted August 24, 2006 02:49 PM

All bolkan nation and all European too must united in the EU. 20th century wars show that war is not way for living - there were only little politic advantages for some politicans but all normal people sufer from the wars. It is time to say no. To stop fighting each other and united in something like big european federal country of quite independent parts. That will boost all economics in europe and will be guarantees peasful living. I think sports and gaming is better way to conquest each other

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Consis
Consis


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posted August 24, 2006 03:30 PM
Edited by Consis at 15:31, 24 Aug 2006.

Hellwitch,

Good point!






























*on a side note* . . . (I was hoping this thread would be deleted. Some my most ignorant and uneducated responses come from this thread)
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