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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Battle Strategies
Thread: Battle Strategies This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
haile73
haile73


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 22, 2001 02:05 PM bonus applied.
Edited By: Hexa on 26 Jan 2002

Battle Strategies

well, there are interesting threads about strategies for every town (even combined towns) here. I'd like to create a thread about strategies when it comes to a battle, especially against the AI.

I've heard people say "Give me 2 mighties and 6 peasants and I can take out any utopia" (I'm exagerrating of course ) the thing that interests me is HOW you do it.

Some general things about fighting the AI I found out:
-if computer thinks he wins (LOL), he attacks the "best" unit
-if computer thinks he loses, he attacks the weakest units
-in a siege, tower aims mostly at shooters, so some poor shooters from 2nd town should help here
-battles on 100% are different from those on 130%+... at least computer goes on wait on 130%+
...
To be continued later in this thread (maybe)

First point which I would like to talk about is taking out utopias.. if u have ressurrection (at least on advanced level), everything is fine. if not, you have to bring some "bum troops". so which is the minimum army you should have to crush those dragons without (major) casualities?

For example, 3 hydras, 9 mighties... what else? if u bring weak forces (5x 1 serpent fly), they will die quickly and the dragons will kill those imprtant MGs. some stacks of a somewhat "sturdy" unit could take some damage (dwarfs, golems, pikemen, maybe ogre). I would do a first strike with a "bum" and then strike with mighties. get hydras into place and try to get multiple target hit. But mostly I don't manage to keep all my MGs.. is that normal? should I leave them at home?
What is your utopia strategy ?

How do you take out cyclop stockpiles ? Since I tend to lose more troops than expected there, I'm wondering if those ressources are worth the trouble.

Okay, that should be enough for a first post...

Edit: revived!@

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Shae_Trielle
Shae_Trielle


Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
posted August 22, 2001 03:16 PM

Utopias

They have cost me more games than I care to remember. I still can't sum up the courage to attack them early, unless I got 20 level 7 and a throng of everything else.

Call me chicken lol!

*smile*

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UnkaHaakon
UnkaHaakon


Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
posted August 22, 2001 03:38 PM

Quote:
How do you take out cyclop stockpiles ? Since I tend to lose more troops than expected there, I'm wondering if those ressources are worth the trouble.


Generally, I'll first find out what I'm facing, using the old "say 'No' to attacking, right click on the stockpile to see what the defenders are" tactic. Then everything else depends on my hero and his troops. If at all possible, mass 'haste' or 'slow' for starters, and try to engage as many of the stacks as I can. Cyclopes are good shooters, but they do have the melee penalty. Try and use whatever shooters I have to pick off the stacks closest to them. Use the AI's stupidity against it (knowing it'll usually go after , say, your centaurs , if they're the biggest stack, for instance)

Generally, unless I'm desperate for resources or experience, I usually wait until I'm strong enough to crush the One-eyed wonders. makes for a nice little bonus then.


____________
Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"

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Titan_888
Titan_888


Known Hero
Wind of Change
posted August 22, 2001 03:40 PM
Edited By: Titan_888 on 22 Aug 2001

LOL how sweet shae_trielle

i have story from a game 1 week ago.
I played Desert war and trust me it does not belong to my favorites maps. i become dungeon and my oppenent too.
what i discovered was that my second castle was stronghold
i took the chance and builded for Rocs, because i had the arms of legion too. so i was growing pretty strong in rocs. but i lost opportonity of red dragons first week. Dispite that no reds, i had around 12 rocs day 1 week 2.. and that was with only citadel build.
well to make this short... my opponent crushed trough some ancients behemoths at his utopia and entered it without problems.. We have had a fight earlier so i was weakened and so was my opponent but he had the blacks.
Now the problem was i had to go into my utopia before 1 or 2 day. All i could gather on my main hero was +20 +20 +12 +8.... 5 red dragons, 24 thunderbirds, 10 scorpicores, 24 harpy hags and 123 troglodytes.
i had exp. offence and exp. armor... but here come the most insane stuff..

guards in front of utopia = Lots of blacks
guards in the utopia= MAX 50000 gold=6 blacks/5golds etc.

without fear i stroke into the blacks... let me remind you that i didnt have 1 usefull spell at all... except the one that saved my butt...

Frenzy..... Frenzy Frenzy....... ))

blacks went on killing my troglodytes and harpyhags... and when i trowed frenzy on my 24 birds... they did 0.9-1.2 damage )))) 3 blacks down and only 1 retaliating on my thunders.... )) remark that this frenzy are removed when new turn starts

ill pass to end of it all... i came out...with blood on my hands i must say.... with 11 thunderbirds left )

i lost my battle to opponent later, but.... who gives damn

GL ALL

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Cheesus
Cheesus


Known Hero
The Untouchable
posted August 22, 2001 03:59 PM

titan, do you remember the first 2vs2 we had? :)

LMAO, i usually overrate myself as i did in that game no wait, i prolly underestimated the utopia hehe.

i started the game with stronghold and gundula (my favo heroin). Somewhere during week 2 i got my ancient behemoths and went for the utopia. The utopia had 2 blacks, 3 golds etc. My stats were about 6-6-5-4, yes very bad. i thought with my ancients there would be no problem.

Well i was right, my behems lived and so did 8 of my ogres. The problem here was that the blacks and golds killed my rocs to fast (i lost 3 already in other fights). My wolfs and gobs died with retaliation so i only had my orcs (next to golds so useless also), ancients and ogres left.

I don´t think i have to say what happend in the utop. usually it´s possible to take it ok in week 2, but i didn´t have the stats or creatures left to make the best of it. Also i was lacking good benificials, so it was stupid in the first place
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Win or lose, it doesn't matter. The way it happens is what is important

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Titan_888
Titan_888


Known Hero
Wind of Change
posted August 22, 2001 04:04 PM

yeah i remember cheesus... i also remember defreni once entered dwarven treasury with only 1 behemoth and there where 150 dwarves...
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Ichon
Ichon


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted August 22, 2001 04:50 PM

hmm

Well, Utopia is usually possible in week 2 I agree with Cheesus, but you better make sure you can make it with only losing 1-2 level units not higher than that. I have found that morale helps hugely in taking Utopia early so I hit all the + morale locations before a battle for sure. Usually I try to have the hero I want to take it waiting outside on day 1 or 2 week two and chain my army there. If you don't have a strong enough stack able to kill off 1 black on it's first strike, then bring at least 1 more supporting stack besides your 2nd, so that would be 3 power groups and 4 fluffs that are to die. I think haste comes in useful now, ideally you will have one unit higher than speed 11 so you can cast mass haste after the gold and blacks hit. Usually they will kill 2 fluff units first, so then you can cast haste and go strike them. I try to line up my power units in this way- Strongest on the ends, weakest in the middle in a line- preferably with one end of the line anchored in the side of the screen. That way the dragons usually avoid your most powerful stack and go for the weakest one in the middle- there they also kill each other off because they must line up on either side of the creature. Use your last fluff unit on first round of round 2 to get retaliation from reds- then use strongest unit on the reds. Depending on how the first round went, you should have, 8 greens, and 4-5 reds as enemies, your own stacks should be, 1 fluff which you used to get retaliation from reds, 2 strong stacks and one weak one which might have been attacked already. Without resurrection it is really hard to take utopia in weak 2 without some losses, I've done it before, but mostly luck of having found some super artifact or a large join. Most often I plan on losing 50% of my 5th level or whichever stack is the weak 3rd stack. I should lose 0 7ths and no more than 1 6th. If I am Fortress I hope to lose 0 5th and 50% of 6th and 0 7th. Fortress is the easiest one to take Utopia early always, that is why I like it so much on certain maps. Especially with high morale! The secret then I think is combination of haste, and cure. Let the black and gold attack your MG's- they will retaliate against first and kill it outright usually. If your hero has decent defense which he should as Fortress, 2 Gold's will almost kill a MG but not quite, that is when you use Cure... at the same time be aggressive with your hydra- computer is weird around multi attack units. I have seen the dragons wait and then defend just so not to get attacked in retaliation, but it's a hard middle ground for that, if your hydra stack is too strong computer will attack, it's its too weak it will attack. Usually 3 of them week 2 is perfect number for average Utopia though.

Cyclops- ugh, they have hurt me worse than anything. It's easy to under estimate, even with mass haste you can't always get to them all fast enough, and plus- even if you do likely at least 2 of your groups are fluff and will die on first attack even melee, so then... cyclops get morale moves. Yes, I don't usually attack here unless I see it's only a pack of cyclops, if I see cyclops kings... I probably won't for awhile. Medusa is also strong if you aren't prepared. I've had to retreat my main from there more times than I like to admit. If you have a strong magic bolt or lightening it's easiest early weeks, if not... maybe wait even for that.

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zsa
zsa


Famous Hero
posted August 23, 2001 02:45 AM

If u have a good army , expt water and forgetfulness Cyclops Stockpiles and Medusa Banks may become a blessing

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haile73
haile73


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 23, 2001 09:55 AM

Thanks for the replies so far,

yeah, expert forgetfullness is nice.. tho I don't happen to get it very often (don't go for water magic usually).

I found Hydras are good to take out almost everything. Dwarfen treasury: one is enough usually, Imp Cache: dito, Medusa store: 3 x 1 hydra should do here, Naga Bank: bad idea!
If you got large territory to clear, it's a good idea to give 1 hydra to one hero week2. so you have 3 heroes out there who can take out almost everything below level 5 (strong shooters may pose a problem here, but haste/teleport helps)

Another important factor in early ressource battles is the ballista, even when used by a non-ballista hero (basic artillery doesn't help too much, imo). It's not the ballista damage that wins these battles, it's the computer attacking the ballista instead of your troops First aid tents could help here, too. Give one early lvl5/6 troop to a FAT specialist and have fun.

sieges against AI.. how do I get the comp to come out of his castle (with tower shooter support) ? Sometimes he comes out, sometimes he doesn't.. is there a pattern ?

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UnkaHaakon
UnkaHaakon


Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
posted August 23, 2001 10:27 AM

Suckering the AI in a Seige...

Quote:
.. how do I get the comp to come out of his castle (with tower shooter support) ? Sometimes he comes out, sometimes he doesn't.. is there a pattern ?


Well, the obvious answer is to either kill the shooters , or run 'em out of ammo. However, the AI usually buys any war machine it can, so if there's a hero involved, the second option isn't too likely. (Ammo carts in this case being something more than something to soak up damage).

I've found that if you place a stack just outside the gate, the AI will often sally out against it, rather than being content to shoot at you. Leave just enough room for the gate to open, wait, then slam whatever opened the gate. This is a case where 'Hypnotize' (if you can get it to work) is your friend. Sometimes 'Berserk' will work as well. Ideal candidates for 'sucker bait' outside the gate are large stacks of Level 1 troops (goblins, imps, etc), gargoyles, and harpies. The AI seems to really hate them for some reason. Slow his flyers , if you can, so he has to come out through the gate.
____________
Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"

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Defreni
Defreni


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 26, 2001 11:49 PM

LOL Titan, I sure do remember that game. Offcourse u pulled through for me as always.
Ive done some pretty god allmighty stupid things vs the comp. Like attacking derelict ship with one green and 6 fluff units. Offcourse it was maxed out. Or attacking imp cache with 1 giant. Again only to see it maxed out. Offcourse the giant was on a scout so no stats to help me out. Dead again.
The best strat vs the comp is clearly to check out the banks, topias, stores etc. before u attack them. That way u have a decent chance to know if u can take them. Usually when I gamble, they always seem to be maxed out
Otherwise Ichons strategy vs topia is great. Though im kinda Shae on that point. I usually wait till week 3 to take them out, cept if I get a really good spell, or get a large group of joiners.
What to be really carefull about is not to take to many different joiners into the topia, coz u dont wanna loose any of ur good stuff. Ive done it once, only to see my ancients get bad morale 2 times, on the first 2 rounds mind u
Otherwise the best level 1 artie to get early on, is the no morale thingy. It always suck to see those grand elves get morale, when ur out in the open round 2 of combat. Always wear it cept if u got leadership or alot of morale boosting arties. AI wandering monsters always got +1 in morale, so be carefull out there

Defreni
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uncoatedtitan
uncoatedtitan


Adventuring Hero
posted August 29, 2001 02:31 PM

hmmmm, maybe if.....

I agree,Im  still kinda new to thisp I usually review the sitiation, i.e. " have I got enuff gold to by a scout to "check" out a certain Utopia(s)",maybe wiff a stack of joiners, so I can take atleast 1 drag out, but if not Im also kinda chicken.  Greetings Uncoated
Quote:
LOL Titan, I sure do remember that game. Offcourse u pulled through for me as always.
Ive done some pretty god allmighty stupid things vs the comp. Like attacking derelict ship with one green and 6 fluff units. Offcourse it was maxed out. Or attacking imp cache with 1 giant. Again only to see it maxed out. Offcourse the giant was on a scout so no stats to help me out. Dead again.
The best strat vs the comp is clearly to check out the banks, topias, stores etc. before u attack them. That way u have a decent chance to know if u can take them. Usually when I gamble, they always seem to be maxed out
Otherwise Ichons strategy vs topia is great. Though im kinda Shae on that point. I usually wait till week 3 to take them out, cept if I get a really good spell, or get a large group of joiners.
What to be really carefull about is not to take to many different joiners into the topia, coz u dont wanna loose any of ur good stuff. Ive done it once, only to see my ancients get bad morale 2 times, on the first 2 rounds mind u
Otherwise the best level 1 artie to get early on, is the no morale thingy. It always suck to see those grand elves get morale, when ur out in the open round 2 of combat. Always wear it cept if u got leadership or alot of morale boosting arties. AI wandering monsters always got +1 in morale, so be carefull out there

Defreni

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Titan_888
Titan_888


Known Hero
Wind of Change
posted August 29, 2001 04:04 PM

Just wanna say.... "HAVE FUN AND GOOD LUCK"

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targon_the_l...
targon_the_lunar_archer


Known Hero
Ranger of AvLee
posted September 01, 2001 01:46 AM

don´t you...

...people know about that little trick UnkaHaakon already mentioned?! - just refuse to fight first, put the pointer over the object and you´ll see: object guarded by horde, throng... of creatures; right - clicking could give you even more specific infomation
...i usually got hacked in griffin conservatory - that can be a nasty one - before i learned this
...and yeah those 150 dwarves hurt like hell...
____________
Utúlie'n aurë, aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë!
Auta i lomë!

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Defreni
Defreni


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 01, 2001 02:58 PM

Well Targon, that was exactly the thing I meant by checking out stores before attacking them. The problem is if u play 1 or 2 min games, then there is rarely time to check out these sites first. And its those times I get smacked by a maxed out dwarven treasury

Defreni
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Hexa
Hexa


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted January 25, 2002 03:13 PM

Top!
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If you want to realize your dreams >>> you have to wake up!@

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notmytohhandle
notmytohhandle


Known Hero
posted December 02, 2002 10:18 PM

Quote:
First point which I would like to talk about is taking out utopias.. if u have ressurrection (at least on advanced level), everything is fine. if not, you have to bring some "bum troops". so which is the minimum army you should have to crush those dragons without (major) casualities?

For example, 3 hydras, 9 mighties... what else? if u bring weak forces (5x 1 serpent fly), they will die quickly and the dragons will kill those imprtant MGs. some stacks of a somewhat "sturdy" unit could take some damage (dwarfs, golems, pikemen, maybe ogre). I would do a first strike with a "bum" and then strike with mighties. get hydras into place and try to get multiple target hit. But mostly I don't manage to keep all my MGs.. is that normal? should I leave them at home?
What is your utopia strategy ?

How do you take out cyclop stockpiles ? Since I tend to lose more troops than expected there, I'm wondering if those ressources are worth the trouble.

Okay, that should be enough for a first post...





about the resurection spell.

u dont need to have advanced earth to be able to use the resurection properly.

If u keep resurecting yr angels (for instant)u will only loose the amount of angels that u came into utope with compared to the lowest number they were during fight.

exp. if u have 5 angels loose 1 resurect that one and loose it again and resurect it again and use this tactic the entire battle u will only loose 1 angel.

sometimes this can make a huge difference to know .

/archie
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Motorschaaf
Motorschaaf


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
posted December 02, 2002 10:49 PM

Quote:



about the resurection spell.

u dont need to have advanced earth to be able to use the resurection properly.

If u keep resurecting yr angels (for instant)u will only loose the amount of angels that u came into utope with compared to the lowest number they were during fight.

exp. if u have 5 angels loose 1 resurect that one and loose it again and resurect it again and use this tactic the entire battle u will only loose 1 angel.

sometimes this can make a huge difference to know .

/archie



yep. aslo the "fake-res" can be used to have unlimited fooder in topes. who cared fior example if that 80 pikeman die over and over again

Motorschaaf
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ILoveHOMM
ILoveHOMM

Tavern Dweller
posted December 16, 2002 07:46 AM

There are other things about the AI that I have found out. THESE MAY NOT BE ACCURATE because I've being playing Heroes 4 ever since I've bought it and I have neglected Heroes 3 for a long time.

AI ranged units, no matter in normal battles or sieges, usually prefers to target specific creatures in each town unless another unit is closer to the ranged units.

Nagas/Naga Queens
Wyverns/Wyvern Monarches
Cyclops/Cyclop Kings
Liches/Power Liches
Monks/Zealots
Elves/Grand Elves
Pit Fiends/Pit Lords
I forgot the ones about Conflux

As a result, I always have lesser amounts of these creatures. I always move my Level 1 or Level 7 creatures ahead a little so they shoot at them instead.

I'm not into taking risks entering creature banks early in the game, especially Dragon Utopias. I need to have a full army of at least 10 Level 7 units and the Expert Resurrection and Implosion spells before I dare to walk into a Dragon Utopia. I found it quite impossible to sustain zero casualties because the dragons have a nasty habit to switching their targets almost every round. It will be difficult to resurrect every victim.

I target the Red or Green Dragons with Implosion during the first round and then I try to resurrect stacks which suffered major casualties in subsequent rounds. I usually walk out of Dragon Utopias losing a few high level creatures and keeping the level 1, 2 and 3 creatures intact.

I don't see much of a problem with cyclops stockpiles as long as your army is strong and fast. I cast Expert Haste or Slow and then attack all of the cyclops with at least 1 stack of creatures doing melee damage so they have no chance of using their devastating ranged attacks. The cyclops usually last until the second round so you will have a chance to do a Resurrection spell before you finish off the cyclops. If you have no spells, at least try to attack all the cyclops with melee troops to stop ranged attacks. Cyclops are not very fast, but beware of Cyclop Kings.

On the whole, I always bring my full army, level 1-7 into creature banks. Bringing less than 5 stacks of creatures is dangerous because you will be attacked extra times since the enemy is split into five stacks everytime.

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krule
krule


Hired Hero
posted December 16, 2002 10:00 AM

My strategies

I dont know how can anyone take DU second weak.Maybe you meant 2nd week 2nd month.And I would like to see how can you with only 3 hydras and 9 mightys and some weak lv1,2,3 creatures take DU-maybe by cheating,exept if you are lv20.
On random map ,imposible difficulty there is no way you can take DU before week 4-and that is if you are very lucky.Usually you can attack on week 1 or 2 month 2.
Good strong army for DU is :  lv7 stack-5-7 ,lv6 stack-14-18,lv5 stack 15-21,lv4 stack 20+  and lv123 to be used as canon meat.Yor hero must be preferably lv 10 but that depands on artifacts you have.
I mostly attack cyclops stock. after I have build all structures but mage guilds.Cy St come in handy for building mage guilds.
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Slu¹aj mater!

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