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| Thread: What the * * * * Were They Thinking When They Created The FLUX ?! | |
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted January 18, 2006 03:54 PM |
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Poll Question:
What the * * * * Were They Thinking When They Created The FLUX ?!
The first time someone told me "only Flux can beat Flux", I thought it was a bit excessive. Later on, tired of losing almost all the time to Flux players, I decided to study the question seriously.
Now I gave it some thought and ran some tests, I know the Flux is ridiculously advantaged and unbalanced compared to any and all other town types in the game. That's a fact ! 
I've read all the Flux-related threads I could find here, and the general impression it gave me is that although many of you already got the general idea of the major balance problem that the very existence of the Flux caused in Homm3... None seems to have typed down clear and simple, once and for good, precisely how it is so advantaged.
So, with a bit of humor and the will to stay true to the facts, I've decided to take on this (rather enormous) task in this here poll / thread. 
Nobody's perfect, so of course all comments / corrections / additionnal informations are welcome ! 
1) Magic Schools, Anyone ? 
Most (all ?) Magic Heroes in the game start with the Wisdom skill as a given. Almost all of them also start with a second starting skill. But NOT always one related to magic. And never (I actually checked any and all of them to make 100% sure) do they start with a Magic School ! Never. Well, that's true for ALL "regular" magic heroes.
Flux's Magic Heroes, they ALL get a Magic School as a starting skill ! Coupled with Wisdom, of course. With the notable exceptions of the 2 "walking mines", Grindan and Gelare (both of them are "money makers", an advantage only the Necro also get), the School they start with is always the one they need the most !
Spell specialists from the Flux never pay the full "price" to cast the spells they specialize in. They couldn't even if they wanted to ! And they have a fair chance of casting it at Expert Level as soon as they reach Lvl 3 (if really unlucky in skill advancement, they may sometimes have to wait till Lvl 5). In any case, it's only a matter of time till they cast the spell at Expert Lvl.
No non-Flux spell specialist in the whole game is this lucky. Stronghold's Terek has to cross fingers in hope he gets offered Air Magic soon enough to ever be able to cast Mass Haste. Sometimes, if unlucky, he simply never get his needed Magic School !  Flux's Brissa doesn't know this problem. She gets to cast Mass Haste in any particular game ! Furthermore, even if you're insanely lucky with Terek, you just can't get Expert Haste sooner than Lvl 4 (Lvl 8 is much more likely, though). Same goes for any and all of them. Dungeon's Darkstorn compared to Flux's Labetha ? Unbalanced. Inferno's Ash compared to Flux's Inteus ? Unbalanced ! 
But there is much more to it than just that. Anyone could hire a Flux Magic Hero from the tavern, after all (if they are lucky enough to get a cool one early enough to become their main hero, that is)...
You see, the one and only town type whose magic heroes start with Magic Schools is also the one and only town type whose town can teach Magic Schools to their heroes !
With the Magic University, the Flux can get the best of any magic hero, not just the ones of the same alignment. Meaning a Flux player who hires Dungeon's Alamar will have him cast Expert Resurrection, it's guaranteed. And a lot earlier than any Dungeon player could in most cases ! Same for Tower's Somnyr. Same for Castle's Loynis. Same for ALL Magic Heroes in the ****ing game !
To make a long story short, they gave the Magic University to the one Town that could have done pretty well without it ! All the other towns just BEG to have a Magic Univeristy, especially for players who like to go the hard way and play magic heroes ! 
It's also true for their might heroes (of the same alignment or not). "Oh, good ! I have Prayer at my Mage Guild. I will make sure to teach my might hero Water Magic, then !" ROFL
2) Oh, dear ! These creatures could use a little bonus, couldn't they ?
I remember very well the day I asked myself "why the **** does this guy choose a 6th Level Creature Specialist as his main hero ?  It's simply insane ! He will only start giving a bonus to his creatures once he reaches Lvl 10 himself !" This guy was, naturally, a Flux player. And therefore I was wrong (so very wrong) !
Monere's magic / psychic elementals (or Pasis', for that matter, since the Flux is also the only town type to get two 6th Lvl creature specialists) get a fixed bonus. Not your usual tiny percentage every so many levels or so (after the creature's level) ! Oh no ! Get a psychics dwelling day one, they will have +3 Att/Def day ****ing one ! Cool, huh ?
Let's see... Which level will, for instance, Dungeon's Synca have to reach to give a +3 Att/Def bonus to her Mantis / Scorps ? Some maths ? Okay. The bonus count will start when she attains Lvl 7. It's a +5% per level bonus, if I'm right. Mantis have 15 Attack. 5% of 15 is 0,75. 3 = 0,75 x 4. So it will take 4 Levels after Lvl 6 to get +3 Attack. At Level 10, Synca's Attack bonus to her creatures will only equal the one Monere gives from day one.
Sure, as Angelito pointed out during a recent discussion at Spy, above Level 13 or so, the bonus a regular creature specialist gives to his/her creatures will start to surpass the one a Flux creature specialist will give all game long. It's true, but it doesn't mean the Flux player isn't advantaged overall, IMHO.
With all due respect, it's typically a "zoner" remark (more on that suject in an upcoming thread I'm preparing about the 2 "schools of playing" and how they differ for now, please Angelito, just acknowledge that I don't mean it in a bad way !  ). Meaning, the way they are used to play, zoners tend to have so high a level when they do meet for final battle that the Flux creatures specialists will no longer be advantaged by their fixed bonus in that particular battle.
Still, even in a typical zone type of game, I maintain that the higher bonus the Flux guy gets in the early to mid stages of the game makes him able to kill more / tougher map creatures earlier than the other guy. Therefore, the Flux player is most likely to be at a higher level than that of his opponent by the time they do fight. 
In a typical spy type of game, the Flux player has an even greater advantage, simply because us spyers, the way we play, we do tend to meet much earlier than the zone guys. And it's fairly common to be both only around the 10th Lvl (or even less) when we fight the decisive battle.
Furthermore, most of Flux's creature specialists don't just give a bonus to Att/Def, but also to the Damage (as great as +5 for Magmas/Earths guys) ! Which no other creatures specialist in the whole game does !
3) I Will Have A Quick Menu, Please !
Now, you probably all know by now that the movement rate of any hero is based on the speed of the slowest unit he/she holds at the end of the previous turn.
Therefore, the quicker the unit you let on the hero at the end of any turn, the more movement tiles he/she will have the next turn.
Let's just ignore Logistics specialty here, I know Gunnar, Kyre or Dessa can surpass any other hero movement-wise in the long run, Flux included. These are 3 exceptions. I'm trying to formulate the general rule, here.
So... On day one, a Flux hero typically appears with a pack of pixies and several airs. Those both have a speed of 7. No non-Flux hero in the whole game appears armed with creatures this fast. On day one, nobody has as many movement tiles as a Flux hero (except, of course, when they get Waters in the package, which is, again, a rather trivial exception).
Even worse, the sprites, very easy to upgrade as soon as day 2, have a speed of 9 and are therefore the fastest Level 1 unit in the game. By day 2, all of the Flux player's scouts will have more movement than any non-Flux opponent's scouts. Unless the opponent waste higher level creatures as scout fodder (for instance, as a Dungeon player, I give my scouts upgraded harpies for more movement, which is a considerable waste of both valuable creatures and gold compared to my Flux opponents).
In battle, this early speed also give Flux players more often than not the initiative, at least in early game.
By the time they get Phoenixes, fastest unit in the game, cheapest level 7th creature and one of the cheaper and quicker to get... The Flux players have combat initiative and adventure map best quickness guaranteed !
Once upgraded (and they are quite cheap to upgrade, are they not ? ) no Flux creature is slower than 6 hexes a turn. Even when a hero transports the whole army, he/she travels faster than any other troops transport from another town type (again not counting the Logo specialists).
Well, I happen to be exhausted by now, and I'm also supposed to write for a living, not just for fun, unfortunately ! Lol So, I will leave the rest of the list for either you folks to complete and / or for a little later when I have time and strenght to finish this.
Later. Legend.
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LM   
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted January 18, 2006 05:06 PM |
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LOL i can really see u are pissed on the 3do entrprise for this move
IMHO you forgot some key arguments though:
1.Sprites are da bomb.You can upgrade them day 1(and not day 2 as u said).week 1 with 100 or so sprites and mass slow(shouldn't be hard to get exp slow day 3-4), you can kill lots nagas or pack behemots wich is simply insane(cranim helps alot here hehe )
2.Storm elementals are by far the best lvl 2 unit in the game. they are actually better than the lvl 3 unit lmaoo.Blessed storms do more damage than grand elves lol
Lvl 4-5 units are crap, you don't even need those to fight the map.
Lvl 6 unit is quite cool, but average at best
Lvl 7 ..hmmm now that is a problem.From this point of view many people are deceived by numbers.it is obvious that 4 pheonixes will kill 2 AA for exemple, but belive it or not, the more the game lasts and the move pheonixes, the less their chances are against a normal lvl 7.if i can recall corect from a early test i once made, 28 pheonixes willget killed by 14 AA. Im not 100% sure if these are the right numbers but i know for a fact this is how it goes.
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted January 18, 2006 06:19 PM |
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I think the worst part isnt that the conflux town is overpowered.. the worst part is they could have made a perfectly cool town instead, that would complement the other ones instead of being silly
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted January 18, 2006 07:11 PM |
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Quote:
....Even worse, the sprites, very easy to upgrade as soon as day 2, have a speed of 9 and are therefore the fastest Level 1 unit in the game. By day 2, all of the Flux player's scouts will have more movement than any non-Flux opponent's scouts...
No. Watch out for fortress and their flies...speed 9 from day 1....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Fofa
Famous Hero
Famous? Me?!
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posted January 18, 2006 08:08 PM |
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Actually, a weakness I found in the Conflux was lack of shooters until the Air and Water Elementals were upgraded.
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Lord_Crusader
Promising
Supreme Hero
UHU!! supreme!
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posted January 18, 2006 09:42 PM |
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I think the most easy way to balance the others towns with conflux is give them a little more power... I mean in almost all the expasions for strategy games the expasion not only add more towns or units... also add some cool stuff to each faction... and this didn't happen in heroes 3... I hope nival didn't do the same with heroes V...
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Dig Out Your Soul
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted January 19, 2006 01:41 PM |
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To All
Thanx for your contributions to this thread !
However, one of you guys didn't vote yet ! 5 votes in total, mine included, means that only 4 out of the 5 people who replied so far did vote. Please don't forget this isn't a standard thread, it's also a poll !
Btw, for those of you who read this but don't feel like posting a reply yet, you can still contribute by simply voting ! It will take you 5 seconds tops (for the slowest of the bunch) ! Lmfao !
As the ones who began to know me a little better probably already guessed... I do have a lot more to say / answer / ask on the subject at hand (You're not getting away with it, Flux ! You ain't seen nothing yet, believe me ! LMFAO ! )
Unfortunately, dull as it may seem, there IS also a thing called "the real life" out there ! ROFL
So, you people will have to wait a few more hours for me to get back from it...
Then, rest assured, the Legend shall speak ! LOL
Tia. Legend.
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LM
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 19, 2006 02:26 PM |
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I voted before writing this post which means 2 people havent voted yet
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Lord_Crusader
Promising
Supreme Hero
UHU!! supreme!
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posted January 19, 2006 06:13 PM |
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LOL I read all the text but didn't saw the poll
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Dig Out Your Soul
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted January 19, 2006 07:14 PM |
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None of the options fit well...so i didnīt vote at all..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Fofa
Famous Hero
Famous? Me?!
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posted January 19, 2006 07:55 PM |
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted January 20, 2006 09:12 AM |
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To All Quote:
Unfortunately, dull as it may seem, there IS also a thing called "the real life" out there ! ROFL
So, you people will have to wait a few more hours for me to get back from it...
Make it "a few more days". I'll be offline until Sunday. Quote:
None of the options fit well...so i didnīt vote at all..
You did now ! Same goes for you, Fofa.
IMHO, it's perfectly ok to vote blank in any vote. It shows that you disapprove any and all of the candidates. That's completely different from not voting at all (which shows you don't care at all about the vote itself).
So, if there are any more people feeling the same way, please do vote blank instead of not voting at all !
Technically, here, I will consider a "blank vote" the fact that someone doesn't give his/her vote to any of the choices offered and posts a message stating that he/she disapproves all 5 of them. Ah, Politics... Lol !
Anyway, I hope there will be lots more (hopefully clever and/or funny) replies and/or votes when I come back online on Sunday !
Have a nice week-end, you all ! Legend.
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LM
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted January 20, 2006 09:35 AM |
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easy answer...
what were they thinking indeed... probably something along the lines of:
"we received death threats for trying to introduce a town that is actually part of the Might and Magic universe [and by definition, the Heroes one] so we have to scrap something together fast to meet the deadline"
...but then again, this may be just a wild guess on my part...
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted January 23, 2006 02:04 PM |
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First Wave Of Replies...
Quote:
IMHO you forgot some key arguments though
Like I said, this was just the first chapter of my complete listing of Flux's advantages. Don't worry, Tigris. There is indeed a lot more to come !
Of course you're right, the fact that they start with the best Level 1 and Level 2 units in the game is one of Flux players' greatest (and most unfair) advantages !
Btw, thanks for correcting me about the sprites upgrade : since the dwelling is already built, you don't need to build mage guild to get the upgrade, so yeah, even worse than I said : they get the fastest Level 1 unit from day one ! Hmpf !Quote:
Lvl 4-5 units are crap, you don't even need those to fight the map.
I disagree, my friend : Earths/Magmas aren't crap, they stand proudly amongst the very best HP banks available in the game ! Ever tried summoning them at Expert Lvl with one of the corresponding creature specialists ? Quote:
I think the most easy way to balance the others towns with conflux is give them a little more power...
You're right, lord_crusader. That's kind of the very definition of balance, isn't it ? Only the way to see it differs :
"I'm stronger than you" = "You're weaker than me" ! So, since the goal is to achieve "We're of equal strenght", there are two ways to go : either give "you" more strength or take some strength away from "me". Logical, no ? Quote:
the worst part is they could have made a perfectly cool town instead, that would complement the other ones instead of being silly
Quote:
"we received death threats for trying to introduce a town that is actually part of the Might and Magic universe [and by definition, the Heroes one] so we have to scrap something together fast to meet the deadline"
Hehehe. Thank you both for the reminders, bjorn190 and Lith-Maethor. But please don't let the sarcasm / humor in my poll choices fool you into believing I'm not aware of the whole "Forge fiasco" issue ! I am.
It can be argued that I'm being a bit rude towards the 3DO people, here, but I maintain that even considered the extremely short deadline they had at the time, they must have been out of their minds in some way to come up with THIS unbalanced stuff ! Quote:
Actually, a weakness I found in the Conflux was lack of shooters until the Air and Water Elementals were upgraded.
LMFAO ! Sure, Fofa, that's a great weakness indeed. And what about the fact that the Firebirds have to be upgraded to get rebirth and initiative guarantee ? This sucks, don't you think ? Moo hoo ha ha !
No offense meant, dear. I'm enjoying your joke is all ! Quote:
No. Watch out for fortress and their flies...speed 9 from day 1....
Talking about jokes... That's possibly the greatest one you ever came up with, Angelito !
Just in case someone didn't notice the humor in your comment, here's the truth : Flies aren't Level 1 units, they're Level 3. So using flies as scout fodder is even more expensive than using hags (Lvl 2), and therefore a fortune compared to sprites !
Furthermore, even if you're lucky enough to get a few flies with your starting Fortress hero, they won't come alone. There will be some gnolls and lizards in the package, no doubt. Those have a "speed" of 4 (LMFAO ).
Need I repeat myself about the way the movement rate of any hero is based upon the speed value of the SLOWEST unit he had at the end of the previous turn ?
For the first turn, the "previous turn" doesn't exist, but it's still the slowest unit the hero has at the beginning of the turn that counts. So, even if you have flies, your number of movement tiles available for the first turn will be based on the speed of 4 of the lizards and/or gnolls, not the flies' speed of 9.
Good joke, still !
The next chapters of the listing should follow soon (I hope... I happen to be very busy IRL these days, though. So I can't say for sure when. ).
Thanx to all. Legend.
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LM
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted January 23, 2006 05:15 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
No. Watch out for fortress and their flies...speed 9 from day 1....
Talking about jokes... That's possibly the greatest one you ever came up with, Angelito !
Just in case someone didn't notice the humor in your comment, here's the truth : Flies aren't Level 1 units, they're Level 3. So using flies as scout fodder is even more expensive than using hags (Lvl 2), and therefore a fortune compared to sprites !
Furthermore, even if you're lucky enough to get a few flies with your starting Fortress hero, they won't come alone. There will be some gnolls and lizards in the package, no doubt. Those have a "speed" of 4 (LMFAO ).
Need I repeat myself about the way the movement rate of any hero is based upon the speed value of the SLOWEST unit he had at the end of the previous turn ?
For the first turn, the "previous turn" doesn't exist, but it's still the slowest unit the hero has at the beginning of the turn that counts. So, even if you have flies, your number of movement tiles available for the first turn will be based on the speed of 4 of the lizards and/or gnolls, not the flies' speed of 9.
Good joke, still !
This was NOT meant to be a joke!
And i will repeat what u said in your first post:
...By day 2, all of the Flux player's scouts will have more movement than any non-Flux opponent's scouts.
You said by day 2. And in 98% of all cases, i build serpent flies on day 1 with fortress. So even if i buy 7 heroes, and none of them has a fly on, the dwell gives 8 flies. This means, all but ONE hero, will have speed 9 related movement on day 2.
And no, u donīt have to explain how the movement calculation works, coz in a lonely night about 2 years ago, i was in the mood creating a whole thread about that topic, read here if u are interested...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Fofa
Famous Hero
Famous? Me?!
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posted January 23, 2006 06:22 PM |
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I wasn't joking either. . . .
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted January 23, 2006 07:06 PM |
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Im always joking.
Day 7 I put 1 firebird on every scout while my main hero proceeds to take out all the utopias with sprites and magmas. The energy elementals, and the water elementals are sent out to attack the opponent in a surprise hit, while I leave the magics at home defending the town with the storms on a level 3 2ndary hero.
That way when the opponent has to return home to defend his town I am ready for him, with the relics and all the stuff, so I win easy! If I have extra troops from other towns I use them as fodder in the main fight. Also, if you find a necro town, a good wraith bomb and a zombiePWN can do the trick!
Just be careful about losing sprites in the tope, you gotta guard em or have ressurection. They die pretty fast if u dont play it right.
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted January 23, 2006 08:16 PM |
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No Bad Feelings
Oh-kay...
Even though this is the Library and not the Tavern (haven't checked the Tavern a lot this far, but I'll give it a shot as soon as I can )... ... I just hate misunderstandings and bad feelings too much to keep myself from at least trying to settle them.
Hence, this one post isn't as much about tactics as it is about trying to make sure we understand each other. In this particular case, "we" = Angelito, Fofa and myself.
Ahem ! None of my statements were intended as personnal attacks (perish the ****ing thought ! ). Neither was I trying to make fun out of any of you. I... actually like you both ( Legendary blush : ) as embarrassing as it can be to actually have to spell it out like that. Especially in a thread that I created for a completely different purpose in the first place.
From all the previous posts of the both of you, I guess the apparent conflict comes from the fact that you both doubt the Flux is so much advantaged. Correct me if my guess is wrong.
Apologizes if I hurt your feelings. Wasn't at all my intention.
Two things I feel maybe you should know about me :
1) I never give up. Never.
Ingame, it means that no matter the odds, I simply won't quit. I won't concede until it's objectively impossible to not lose. You'll have to actually bother and go for the kill, if you really want "to win the Legend" ! ROFL
"Inforum" (if that makes any kind of sense lol), it means that I won't agree with your statements as long as your arguments didn't objectively convince me. I won't just shut up because people disagree with what I say. I will try to prove my point as long as I think it's the truth.
2) I respect my opponents. Always.
Ingame, it means that when you kick my ****, you kick my ****. I won't be mad at you for that. I won't call you a cheater. I won't fall into pathetic excuses. I'll congratulate you instead. If I'm ever mad at someone after a defeat, it will be at myself.
"Inforum", it means that when you prove me wrong, you prove me wrong. I won't be angry for that. I won't pretend I was right anyway. I won't fall into pathetic excuses. I'll be thankful instead. Because the only thing I want when I participate in a debate is the truth. It doesn't matter to me who finds it first.
I sincerely think the Flux is ridiculously advantaged. You think it's not. Good, then we have an interesting debate ahead ! If we go through it thorougly, if we all want to determine wether the Flux is advantaged or not, I'm confident that eventually we'll find the truth about it.
Unfortuantely, debates often tend to turn into sterile fights IRL. Each candidate wants to win the elections, none gives a **** about what could be good for the country. If a good idea is proposed by the other guys, then it's not a good idea anymore. If a wrong idea is voted by their side, then it's a great idea all of a sudden.
Let's hope we can do better than that in this forum. Let's hope here we can cooperate and actually exchange ideas, not oppose each other to no end.
(EDIT: Back to the debate itself :
To Angelito :
You quoted only a part of what I said about this point in my first post. My guess is you failed to read the sentence that followed the one you quoted, because I know you're way too clever and way too aware of the game facts to not understand that what you said in your last post about the use of flies as scout fodder was already included in this sentence.
Here is the part that you missed : Quote:
Unless the opponent waste higher level creatures as scout fodder
Quote:
(for instance, as a Dungeon player, I give my scouts upgraded harpies for more movement, which is a considerable waste of both valuable creatures and gold compared to my Flux opponents).
Btw, thank you for the link to your movement calculation thread ! Pretty interesting stuff indeed. I'll make sure to read it all asap.
To Fofa :
Ok, I acknowledge that you weren't joking. I will therefore treat your comment in a serious way instead of joking about it myself.
Given the tremendous advantages I believe the Flux players get, and given the exceptionnally cheap cost of both the upgrade dwellings and the upgrade of the troops you were referring to, I sincerely think it isn't at all a "weakness" that they can't shoot until upgraded.
Most shooters in the game aren't very useful until upgraded, either. But most of them are much more expensive to get and/or upgrade than the Storms. And the Storms are amongst the most effective shooters one can get, especially in early game. So, compared to the other towns, I actually think the Flux is objectively advantaged in the shooters department, not disadvantaged like you say.
If you still disagree, I'll just stop trying to convince you, Fofa. I don't want to hurt your feelings, again. )
Yours Truly. Legend.
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LM
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Fofa
Famous Hero
Famous? Me?!
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posted January 24, 2006 01:32 AM |
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When I leave my elementals unpurchased for a few weeks, getting them in my army really drains my wallet, more so than when I play as the other types. And I still have troops to recruit then too. That's my only other weakness for the Conflux, expensive elemental price.
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Fortress_fan
Disgraceful
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posted February 03, 2006 08:37 PM |
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The idea of a Conflux is realy cool! I mean, all fantasy games should have elementals! Well, Conflux was overpowered in magic, but how often do you really seek after the grail if you aren't in the late game!?
I personaly liked it, I like to have an elemental town, and I hope that Nival will doe one to one of the Heroes V expansions!
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