Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile

<a href="http://www.game-advertising-online.com/" target=_blank>Game Advertising Online</a><br> banner requires iframes

LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info forum | HOMM4: info forum | HOMM5: info forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: How do the logistics and pathfinding skills work exactly?
Thread: How do the logistics and pathfinding skills work exactly? [ This thread is 4 pages long: (1) 2 3 4 ]
angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted April 14, 2004 09:22 PM
Edited By: angelito on 13 Jan 2005

How do the logistics and pathfinding skills work exactly?

Wishfully awaited, the "Explanation Series" continue here  


Today i want to explain how the movement calculation of a hero works.

There are two skills which affect the movement of a hero (besides artifacts, buildings and terrain).
The first one is logistics, and the second one pathfinding.


Logistics

Expert logistics means, your hero getīs a 30% bonus on his daily movement.

First question: What criterions affect the amount of movement points of a hero?

Every hero has a daily base movement of 15 tiles.

The first affecting criterion is the speed of the slowest unit in his army.
The formula looks like this:

Slowest speed is 1-4 ---> no extra tile
Slowest speed is 5 ---> 1 extra tile
Slowest speed is 6-7 ---> 2 extra tiles
Slowest speed is 8 ---> 3 extra tiles
Slowest speed is 9-10 ---> 4 extra tiles
Slowest speed is 11 or more ---> 5 extra tiles

That means in practice, a hero with a pikeman in his army has 15 movement points, another one with only angels has 20.
How can u use this as an advantage for u?
Try to leave all your units except the fastest one from your hero at the garrison (e.g.) when u end your turn in a town. When itīs the next turn, your hero will have more movement points than if he would have had his whole army on..
Instead of leaving the units in garrison, u can "chain" them to another (second) hero and take them back on the next turn.

The next affecting criterions are artifacts and buildings.
If your hero carries the "equestrianīs gloves", he getīs a bonus of 3 tiles (---> 2 gloves wonīt give u 6 tiles, it only counts one time).
If your hero has the "boots of speed" on, he getīs a bonus of 6 tiles
If your hero has visited the stables, he getīs a bonus of 4 tiles

Now u can see that huge difference.
If a hero has only a pikeman and no arties, he has a movement amount of 15 tiles, if he has only an angel, has the boots and the gloves, and has visited the stables, he has an amount of 33 tiles!!


The third and very important affecting criterion is the terrain.

There are 5 types of terrain, which donīt affect the movementpoints anyway:
Grass, Dirt, Lava, Subterranean, Native
Native means, that the hero has only creatures of the same native terrain in his army.

3 types of "terrain" increase the movementpoints:
Dirt road (gives 1/3 of normal movementpoints extra, or to say it in other words, movement costs are reduced to 75%)
Gravel road (gives 1/2 of normal movement points extra, or to say it in other words, movement costs are reduced to 66%)
Cobblestone road (doubles normal movementpoints, or to say it in other words, movement costs are halved)

Example:
A hero with 1 angel who travels his complete movement on a cobbelstone road, has a range of 40 tiles instead of 20 tiles.
A hero with a pikeman who travels his complete movement on a dirt road, has a range of 20 tiles instead of 15 tiles.


4 types of terrain lower the movement points

rough (stronghold) movementpoints cost 125%
sand (desert) movementpoints cost 150%
snow (tower) movementpoints cost 150%
swamp (fortress) movementpoints cost 175%

Example:
A hero with a pikeman on swamp has only 8 movementpoints (15/1.75)
A hero with an angel on swamp has only 11 movementpoints (20/1.75)
That means, a hero with a gnoll on swamp (native) has 15 tiles movement and has 4 more than the other one with the angel..


Last affecting criterion is a hero with speciality "logistics".
This means, a hero getīs 5% bonus on his logistic skill with every level he reaches.
If u have such a hero (Kyree, Gunnar, Dessa) on Level 20, he getīs 100% (20* 5%) bonus on his logistic skill, that means his bonus is doubled from 30% to 60%.

Example:
A hero with expert logistics, 1 angel, on grass, has a total movement of 26 tiles (15 base movement + 5 bonus coz of angel = 20, 30% of 20 = 6, 20 + 6 = 26)
Kyrre, Level 20, with expert logistics, 1 angel, on grass,  has a total movement of 32 tiles (15 base movement + 5 bonus coz of angel = 20, 60% of 20 = 12, 20 + 12 = 32)


Now comes an interesting question:
How is this whole stuff counted, if more than 1 affecting criterion is present?

(Basic movement points) + (bonus coz of unit speed) = normal daily movement
normal daily movement * percentage of logistic skill = logistics bonus

So here is the final formula for evaluation of a heroīs movementpoints on a present day:

((normaly daily movement) + (logistics bonus) + (artifacts bonus) + (stables bonus)) * (terrain penalty)

To make this formula clearer, i give you an example with Kyrre, Level 20, 1 angel, all speed artifacts, stables visited, travelling whole distance on cobblestone road:

((20) + (12) + (9) + (4)) * 2 = 90

So u can see, in this special case, Kyrre would have a range on that day of 90 (!!) tiles. Now perhaps u can understand why log. spec. heroes r not welcome in the zone..



Pathfinding

This explanation will be much shorter than the one above

Pathfinding affects the heroīs movement only on 4 types of terrain:

Rough, Sand, Snow, Swamp

The penalties for travelling on those terrains r mentioned above, the pathfinding skill neutralizes a part, or the complete penalty.

With basic pathfinding
- the penalty for rough terrain is neutralized
- the penalty for sand and snow terrain is lowered from 150% to 125%
- the penalty for swamp terrain is lowered from 175% to 150%

With advanced pathfinding
- the penalty for sand and snow terrain is neutralized
- the penalty for swamp terrain is lowered to 125%

With expert pathfinding
- the penalty for swamp terrain is neutralized


So as a conclusion of these explanations, u can see that logistics is always a good choice as a secondary skill, and pathfinding depends strong on maps terrain. If u play against tower or fortress, i think itīs also a must..


Hope this removed some ambiguities  

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Shirastro
Shirastro


Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
posted April 14, 2004 10:35 PM
Edited By: Shirastro on 14 Apr 2004

Hey i just learned something new
And to think i was convinced i knew everithing.

I always thought that pathfindig reduces the penalty for 75% (expert), wich it doas, but not in the way you explained. I thought it just reduces the penalty, and not completly removing it......always wondered why they did that, since in HOMM2 it removed 100% of the penalty.

I feel enlighted thanx
____________
And now to the next post.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
haile73
haile73


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 15, 2004 02:31 AM

nice summary as usual.

so if you spot snow somewhere on the map, be sure you keep that 1 gremlin a tower hero in your tavern brings ;-)

having said this, here's one question I'm too lazy to answer myself by testing: Does the creature-terrain-thingie apply while moving or does the beginning of the turn count?

Example: (what I usually do) I end my turn on snow terrain with 1 dragon fly (or whatever fast creature I have). Beginning of new turn I exchange the dragon fly with a gremlin to avoid movement penalty. Does it work or should I have ended the turn with the gremlin on my hero? And what happens when I moved a few tiles with my dragon fly and exchange it with the gremlin then? Movement penalty gone for the rest of the path?

angelito, how does it work exactly? =P

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted April 15, 2004 07:56 AM
Edited By: Sir_Stiven on 15 Apr 2004

it works like that haile, if you change while about to move between wearing for example a gnoll on swamp and a pikemen on the same ground you will see the difference once you set out your destination.

I usually change for the fastest unit aswell at end of turn for more movement, then i change with the "troop keeping hero" for the units that suits that ground the best. Sometimes i even use several troop carriers so main hero can walk between fights with native ground units and then change to army one tile away from battle... only then for troop carrier(s) to take it all back.

Can do wonders for you at randoms where your 2nd area has a severe movement penalty in regular cases.

Good post btw angelito.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
pietjebell
pietjebell


Promising
Known Hero
positive
posted April 15, 2004 01:51 PM

now this is some serious usefull info!

Good one angelito!!

thanx!
____________
BOOT: what U give yur computer to start

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted April 15, 2004 03:16 PM

First of all thx to all of u for the warm words..

Though iīm used to write only mostly basic informations about the mentioned skills (for not make it too complex), i like it very much, when guys like haile73 ask some questions, which are a little bit more "difficult" to figure out.

But i tested it out...and i have some informations now, which could surprise most of u..

The movement calculation is made before every single step!!


Examples:

If u end a turn on grass with 1 pikeman and 1 angel, u will get a movement of 15 tiles at the start of next turn.
If next turn starts, and u dismiss this 1 pikeman then, u will have 20 tiles movement for this turn!!
Same goes if u u travel 10 tiles with this army and dismiss the pikeman now, u no longer have 5 tiles rest, but 10 tiles!

Same goes with terrain panalties. U can make new strategies for chaining your troops now...
On the start of my turn, my hero had 1 pikeman on swamp terrain (gives 8 tiles movement). After 5 steps, terrain changed to snow and a second hero of mine stood there with 1 gremlin. Now this second hero "changed" army with the first one. And instead of the 3 left tiles, he had 6 tiles for traveling now!

So the big conclusion now is:
Watch the army of your hero before every single step. U can change the movement points immense!

BTW....movement artifacts only count at the beginning of a turn. Giving it on a present day doesnīt influence the movement points for that single day!
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Xarfax111
Xarfax111


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
posted April 15, 2004 03:17 PM

Hi angelito,

very nice post as always. Just let me do some little corrections:

Quote:
Every hero has a daily base movement of 15 tiles.


Thats wrong: Every hero has the speed of 1900, which is 19 in tiles and 9 in creature combat speed.

Quote:

The first affecting criterion is the speed of the slowest unit in his army.
The formula looks like this:

Slowest speed is 1-4 ---> no extra tile
Slowest speed is 5 ---> 1 extra tile
Slowest speed is 6-7 ---> 2 extra tiles
Slowest speed is 8 ---> 3 extra tiles
Slowest speed is 9-10 ---> 4 extra tiles
Slowest speed is 11 or more ---> 5 extra tiles


Thats ok, but the correct numbers are as follows:

Slowest Creature Movement
0                1300
1                1360
2                1430
3                1500
4                1560
5                1630
6                1700
7                1760
8                1830
9                1900
10               1960
11               2000
12               2000
13               2000
14               2000
15               2000
16               2000
17               2000
18               2000
19               2000
20               2000

At end of calculation the amount will be made down to full hundred.

An example with kyrre:

Kyrre, lvl10, log exp., centaur capt., boots:

1830+(1830*(0,3+0,3*10*0,05)+600= 1830+823,50+600= 3253,50
down to full 100 = 32 movement tiles


Thanks for easy listening

Xarfax1


____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted April 15, 2004 03:44 PM

Quote:
........
Thats wrong: Every hero has the speed of 1900, which is 19 in tiles and 9 in creature combat speed.

..............
Thanks for easy listening

Xarfax1




Hello Xarfax,

iīm always glad to listen to your summaries..

Sure u r right with the mentioned base speed of a hero. But as there is no slower unit than a peasant (speed 3) and i donīt know if the "hero without army"-bug does exist with the newest patches anylonger, a hero starts at least with 15 tiles.
But i tested this with my hero and this "elemental, surrender" trick. And u r right, coz at the beginning of the next turn i bought this hero in tavern, he had no army, and he had a movement of 19 tiles.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
haile73
haile73


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 15, 2004 03:55 PM

Quote:
If u end a turn on grass with 1 pikeman and 1 angel, u will get a movement of 15 tiles at the start of next turn.
If next turn starts, and u dismiss this 1 pikeman then, u will have 20 tiles movement for this turn!!
Same goes if u u travel 10 tiles with this army and dismiss the pikeman now, u no longer have 5 tiles rest, but 10 tiles!


Are you sure??
I think I just did a similiar test (1 serpent fly, 1 lizard & end of turn, dismissing the lizard at beginning of new turn) and I couldn't move a single tile more than I could without dismissing.

What version are you playing again? or what game? =)

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted April 15, 2004 03:57 PM

hmmm ya that last part seems weird indeed.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted April 15, 2004 04:11 PM
Edited By: angelito on 15 Apr 2004

I did that test with 1.4

But u canīt see this movement changing on 1 view.

If u click to your destination point, u can see your tiles in green (for this day) and then in red (for the next day). But u all know that..
If u dismiss ur pikeman now, nothing will change on this marked way, but if u choose another destination (mark another path) and change back to ur original path, u can see that u can travel furthermore..

I couldnīt believe that by myself, but it works..
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted April 15, 2004 09:02 PM

I couldnīt "sleep" very well with this unexplained procedure of "dismissing" a single unit...

I tested it now on very much different situations, and i recognized that i was "cheated" before by not testing more situations...


1.If your hero stands on native ground and has 1 slow and 1 faster unit in his army, then nothing will happen when u dismiss the slower unit.

2. If your hero stands on non-native but influencing terrain (rough, snow, desert, swamp), then also nothing will happen, when u dismiss the slower unit.

3. If your hero stands on influencing terrain and has 1 fast native and 1 slow non-native unit in his army, then it happens what was mentioned in earlier posts: u get more movement for that single day when u dismiss the slower unit.

Examples:

Hero stands on grass, has 1 pikeman and 1 angel.
On start of turn, u can dismiss the pikeman and u wonīt get more movement.

Hero stands on rough, has 1 pikeman and 1 angel.
Same result as above.

Hero stands on rough, has 1 pikeman and 1 thunderbird.
On start of turn, u can dismiss the pikeman and u raise ur movement for that day!


I tested that circumstance now on 25 different combinations of terrain and units. With the conditions mentioned in point 3, i could always raise heroeīs movement points.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
haile73
haile73


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 16, 2004 02:46 AM

woohoo... hail to the man who prefers research to sleeping.

we sure could use you here at the university =)

have to test this later though, because I still don't believe =P

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted April 17, 2004 07:28 PM

After some more testing, i can explain now, why you get more movement in case 3:

I think on the start of your turn, all your movement is calculated from the AI. That means, u have a number of tiles between 15 and 20 given. After that, u get your bonus tiles from arties and buildings (stables).
This makes your whole movement for the day.

But now, the computer calculates EVERY SINGLE STEP (like mentioned above). That means, every penaltiy coz of terrain or coz of road is calculated before every step.
When u are on rough terrain and have a thunderbird and a pikeman "on board", u get a penalty (moves cost 125% of normal costs) coz rough is no native terrain of the pikeman.
If u dismiss your pikeman now, u wonīt suffer a penalty anylonger, coz all your units are native now, and u get your "25%" movement costs back (about 3 or 4 tiles).

That should clear the question now..

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Xarfax111
Xarfax111


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
posted April 18, 2004 04:48 AM

Well in practise it means like firewall-steve already described:

On end of turn let the angel at your main, that will give u full movement for the next turn.

Then give the gnoll u got out of the opponents dwelling to your main hero. Now your main hero can run without penalty over swamp and therefore will still have full movement.

If youve a chain, chain your armie with scouts to your main. If not go as far as the scout can reach your main, at least the main wont get movement penalties for this part.

This is important to clear the map near a road on native terrain with fodder with u. But i guessed this is already known by everyone.

Xarfax1


PS: Angelito muy guess on movement reduktion is as follows. Every movent tile has 100 points. If u go on certain terrain ull get not a percentage reduction calculated on your full movement points. furthermore ull get an amount like 125 points or something per tile. Thats only my guess, but it works in practise.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Xarfax111
Xarfax111


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
posted April 21, 2004 03:48 PM
Edited By: Xarfax111 on 21 Apr 2004

..god damnit...Angelito i thought u were going to work on it!?

In your header u said u will explain how it work "exactly"... but your calculation was far from exact.

An example:

Youve two knights running around on a road. One has an elf, the second one has a grand elf with him. Which one moves longer and why?

An example:

Youve two rangers running around on the map. Both have elves with them, but one moves longer. Why is that?

Cheers,

Xarfax1
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted September 18, 2004 01:48 PM

Wow Xarfax

Das nenn ich mal: "How does it work exactly"..

Very nice work  
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Dingo
Dingo


Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
posted September 18, 2004 06:20 PM

Sehr Gut!
____________
The Above Post/Thread/Idea Is CopyRighted by, The Dingo Corp.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted September 19, 2004 03:06 PM

Sorry guys...but itīs very poor to "spam" such an informatical thread with all these comments....these are not the wastelands....but the library...if someone posts a very usefull explanation in a different language, doesnīt mean all others can post "crap" in their language aswell.

So please stop talking offtopic..
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted September 19, 2004 03:12 PM

Angelito,

If you accept to be Moderator then you could change that. Library of Enlightenment section of HC needs better mod. You can do it. You will be good!
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
[ This thread is 4 pages long: (1) 2 3 4 ] < Prev Thread . . . Next Thread >
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.2026 seconds