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Yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted May 09, 2007 11:20 PM |
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Quote:
So AB can beat AA, if both heroes are strong..
(70-70-70-70, for exemple)
But what about 2N Phoenixes against N Ancient Behemots? (Worst case hero A+D values?)
AB is 1v1 specialist, it can beat any other lvl 7 if it strikes first, even if hero stats are low. Speed is a small problem tho.
About the phoenix... this is raw mathematics (and thus far from real gameplay)
With no bonuses from heroes.
That makes AB 19 ATT + 19 Def --> Deals 175% DMG
Phoenixes have 21 ATT + 4 Def --> Deals 110% DMG
However, barbarian heroes get many att bonuses while behemoths practically ignore any defense bonuses from enemy heroes 
Too bad for barbarians battles are not just 1v1 of level 7 creatures
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doom3d
Known Hero
Avatar of general Z
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posted May 12, 2007 10:14 PM |
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Edited by doom3d at 22:18, 12 May 2007.
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OK, then w/o heroes:
AB: 175% *40dmg *300HP -> Performance Rating = 21000.
Phoenixes: 110% *70 dmg *400 HP -> PR = 30800.
Phoenixes still win.
That's why I asked about worst case Hero skills.
If both hero has high defense, then AB with special ability may win.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 12, 2007 10:17 PM |
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What is performance rating?
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doom3d
Known Hero
Avatar of general Z
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posted May 12, 2007 10:25 PM |
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Edited by doom3d at 22:26, 12 May 2007.
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Quote:
What is performance rating?
If You compaire two stacks, one starts with dmg(1),HP(1) other with dmg(2), HP(2) including Attack/Defense/special bonuses, then estimated time to kill other stack is HP(2)/dmg(1) for stack1, and HP(1)/dmg(2) for stack 2.
In other words, 1vs1 winner will be stack with higher dmg*HP value (including attack, defense and special modifiers).
I call this effective dmg*HP value as Performance Rating.
If You compaire all creatures to a reference, then You can calculate "absolute" PR values.
PR= (dmg mean value)*HP*(attack mod.)*(defense mod)*(special modifiers)
Creature prices are based on that PR value.
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SwampLord
Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
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posted May 13, 2007 03:01 AM |
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AB does 30-40 damage. 175% of that is over 75-100 damage. You forgot to add in the bonus for the massive AB attack superiority. AB will rip through phoenix's 200 HP, but will still probably die due to having to fight at least 3 phoenixes, b/c of rebirth.
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doom3d
Known Hero
Avatar of general Z
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posted May 13, 2007 11:32 AM |
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Quote:
AB does 30-40 damage. 175% of that is over 75-100 damage. You forgot to add in the bonus for the massive AB attack superiority. AB will rip through phoenix's 200 HP, but will still probably die due to having to fight at least 3 phoenixes, b/c of rebirth.
Sorry, but:
(30+40):2 *175% = 61.25, max. 40*1.75=70; is not over 75-700..
and 2 phoenixes have 400 HP. Question was about 2N Phoenix vs. N AB.
Phoenixes win w/o rebirth.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2007 02:34 PM |
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Edited by Ecoris at 14:34, 13 May 2007.
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I see the idea behind comparing HP(2)/dmg(1) for stack1, and HP(1)/dmg(2) for stack 2. (Whichever stack has the lower number uses the fewest strkes to kill the other stack).
But such numbers do by no means tell which stack would win in a real battle. I don't believe in terms like "performance rating" or such. There is no good way to compare creatures like this. Experience is the best judge.
But since I do like numbers and calculations I'll have to point out a few corrections:
Ancient Behemoth's gets a 80% bonus to damage vs Phoenixes. They reduce the Phoenixes defense value of 18 to 3.6 which is treated as 3. Thus Attack - Defense = 19 - 3 = 16, for a bonus of 5% * 16 = 80%. The damage range for a single AB is thus 54-90 (an AB has a damage range of 30-50, not 30-40).
But you're right that 2 Phonixes will beat 1 AB even without rebirth.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted May 13, 2007 04:21 PM |
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Edited by yasmiel at 16:22, 13 May 2007.
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So average battle with those numbers in mind, if AB starts first.
AB- 19ATT,19DEF,300HP,54-90DMG
PH- 21ATT,03DEF,200+200HP,33-44 + 33-44DMG
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1st round:
AB hits Phoenixes for 72 Damage, phoenixes have 200+138HP left
2 phoenixes hits AB for 77 Damage, AB has 223 HP left
2nd round:
AB hits Phoenixes for 72 Damage, phoenixes have 200+66HP left
2 phoenixes hits AB for 77 Damage, AB has 146 HP left
3rd round:
AB hits Phoenixes for 72 Damage, phoenix has 196HP left
Phoenix hits AB for 34 Damage, AB has 112 HP left
4th round:
AB hits Phoenixes for 72 Damage, phoenix has 124HP left
Phoenix hits AB for 34 Damage, AB has 78 HP left
5th round:
AB hits Phoenixes for 72 Damage, phoenix has 52HP left
Phoenix hits AB for 34 Damage, AB has 78 HP left
6th round:
AB hits Phoenixes for 72 Damage, phoenix has -20HP left
AB wins
So, my statement that if AB hits first, it beats any lvl7 1v1 (or in this case 1v2) is still true 
Notice that 2AB against 4 Phoenixes would end this fight with even faster.
But, I'm aware that these conditions would rarely be met on battlefield:
Phoenixes usually have first strike.
They have resurrection as well
AB however, deals much more than 170% damage due to extreme hero attack ratings and ignoring enemy hero's defense rating.
One more thing that should be considered is that 1AB costs 3000+1C while 2 phoenixes are 4000+2M.
AB still stays my fabourite
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2007 07:03 PM |
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Edited by Ecoris at 19:05, 13 May 2007.
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But in every round each stack will hit the other twice; normal attack and retaliation.
It's a HUGE advantage going first every single round and not have the other stack attack you ever but only retal.
So under these extreme conditions the AB may win, but really yasmiel, what is the point then?
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted May 13, 2007 07:18 PM |
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Edited by yasmiel at 19:22, 13 May 2007.
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(it was not only retal, it was without retals tho it ends up as the same)
With retals, would end up the same just with less rounds, first one to strike would win. Well, maybe not but im too lazy to check
Anyway,
I was not making a point
This is not an argue thread so no need for points or realistic conditions
Just some interesting observations.
Game is not lv7 vs lv7 anyway and all raw statistics dissapear in a sea of options and conditions for each specific game.
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doom3d
Known Hero
Avatar of general Z
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posted May 13, 2007 07:30 PM |
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Remarks..
Phoenixes strike first. (almost always).
What about retaliations?
First mover can cast a spell first.
Phoenixes are immune to blind. Disrupting ray is more effective on ABs, because Phoenixes already lost most of their Defense due to AB's special.
(100 Ph against 50 AB)
Round 6.: .. 2 Phoenixes rise from ashes. AB stands on 78 HP, phoenixes at 400 HP. They hit AB for 68 dmg.
Round 7.: AB stands on 10 HP, Phoenixes attack.. 
But it seems that I was wrong, they do need rebirth ability..
BTW, some more details about Performance Rating:
If You calculate "absolute value" as follows:
PR = (dmg mean value)*HP*(1+0.05A)*(1+0.025D)*{ability Modifiers},
then creature's price will be approx. 14.1 gold*SQRT(PR value).
(something similar was used by NWC guys)
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Bigbadfly
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2007 08:59 PM |
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What the?
This is so confusing, why dont just test every purpose playing he fight with different styles and do not play Einstein!
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2007 09:28 PM |
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Quote:
(it was not only retal, it was without retals tho it ends up as the same)
With retals, would end up the same just with less rounds, first one to strike would win. Well, maybe not but im too lazy to check
No, it's not at all the same. With retals the "flow of attacks" between stack X and stack Y goes like this: X, Y, Y, X, X, Y, Y, X, X, Y, Y, etc.
The point is that whoever has had the most strikes changes back and forth. In your example the AB has strikes number 1, 3, 5, 7, etc.; always a step ahead. In 1 vs 1 that is not so important, but it makes a considerable difference with just a few more creatures.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted May 13, 2007 09:36 PM |
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Edited by yasmiel at 21:56, 13 May 2007.
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Um, i wasnt comparing those 2 things when i said they are the same.
What i compared is you saying phoenixes never attack against what i had in mind when i made that um... observation...that is, no retaliations
And THOSE 2 end up as SAME even tho both would be unrealistic.
I suppose i should have said it more clearly
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 14, 2007 09:28 AM |
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Quote:
Um, i wasnt comparing those 2 things when i said they are the same.
What i compared is you saying phoenixes never attack against what i had in mind when i made that um... observation...that is, no retaliations
And THOSE 2 end up as SAME even tho both would be unrealistic.
I suppose i should have said it more clearly
Well, yes, that would the same. I was just saying that if the Phoenixes never retal but just move around it would end like you described with the AB hitting first in every round. But with such a great advantage it's no wonder that the AB ends up winning. I really like the AB but I don't think your argument supports its strength.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted May 14, 2007 06:39 PM |
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But, there were no arguments at all
I already said earlier that phoenixes are slightly imba for their price.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 14, 2007 06:49 PM |
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Are we misunderstanding each other? I never made a comparison between AB and Phoenixes. All I did was take your example and word it differently to make it clear that it was absurd.
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Lathspell
Hired Hero
The Great White
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posted May 14, 2007 06:59 PM |
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Quote:
I'm sure you could easily grade all of these very accurately on different situations with the map editor. If we are going on personal favourites for style of play I would definately choose the Black Dragon. I also prefer the idea of actually fighting with my top level unit, not ressurecting with multiple stacks, or sitting back firing thunderbolts out of my arse! I think it's a very un-stylish way to win.
un-stylish? A tower user with a bit of tactics, with slayer and ressurection wins a battle without losing a single titan. I'd say that's style. And imo, in a REAL battle, not 1 on 1 7th level creatures, the Titan is the most powerful 7th level unit out there. As long as you play your cards right, the Black Dragon, with his magic immunity and his "Uber" stats can't even touch the titan. (I did mention a real battle, not a duel). And in a duel, I still say the black dragon looses to AA and AB. With the right spells here and there.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted May 14, 2007 07:36 PM |
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Quote:
Are we misunderstanding each other? I never made a comparison between AB and Phoenixes. All I did was take your example and word it differently to make it clear that it was absurd.
Aren't all 1v1 among creatures threads absurd to start with?
98% of threads don't have any ground in real games, yet it doesn't mean they are not interesting observations.
I'm taking my leave of this.
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pacifist
Famous Hero
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posted May 15, 2007 11:10 AM |
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Somehow I prefer the creatures that are only one hex wide as they allow more tactical possibilities and are harder to surround. Thus for me it's te titan and the archdevil (my favorite). Put the creature in a corner opposite side or another square depending on the obstacles (same as for vampire lords) and deal with 2 creatures each round only. If there are non retal creatures, reduce numbers of one stack without killing it (or blind) and then do the same with other and wait + hit the other creatures outside the box . Not counting the possibility of force field being easier to use. Well I will gladly accept some archangels if they join me though .
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