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| Thread: More on Mohammed and the freedom of speech issue |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Nebuka
Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
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posted February 08, 2006 11:49 PM |
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Quote:
A good example of freedom of speech would be going to Harlem and saying "I hate f*****g N*****s!!!" over and over. All you would be doing would be expressing your personal opinion. However, who is stupid enough to actually use the freedom of speech right in that way?
And what exactly are you trying to prove with posting that? Same with Milena's Texas example?
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted February 08, 2006 11:58 PM |
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In other words, there is not freedom of speech. But a high degree of freedom of speech 
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 09, 2006 12:59 AM |
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted February 09, 2006 03:05 AM |
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Nebuka,
I don't really understand what they mean either.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted February 09, 2006 03:58 PM |
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Quote:
I don't really understand what they mean either.
Did you understand what my other post means? If you didn't - I understand that. Dreaming about how free your country is and how free you are is nice. You can just skip my post again and ignore all of my further posts because they may interfere with those dreams.Quote:
Consis, no offense, but do you actually belive what you are saying? If you do, then you may want to consider opening your eyes and looking around once in a while.
If there is one country that lacks the freedom of speech - that is US. FFS, you aren't allowed to say that someone is black. You have to use the word "African American". If you say something that isn't allowed to be said, you'll get sued or even jailed. Did you know that in some schools in USA kids get punished for sending each other Christmas cards because a certain "initiative group" doesn't like Christianity and because of that it threatened the school's principal to sue the school? Did you know that teaching certain things such as Darwin's theory is illegal in some places in USA? Did you know that some books are removed from the libraries because of the censors? As for this particular topic - look at the last episode of South Park where they made fun of Virgin Mary and the Pope. Fox network got sued and had to take it off the air. Many Christians got pissed off. Have you seen any other channel show this cartoon because they think that forcing Fox to appologize and to remove it violates the freedom of speech? Have you seen half of Europe show this cartoon? This is extreme hypocricy when you censor one cartoon making fun of YOUR religion, yet you consider mocking the other religion perfectly fine and call it "freedom of speech".
If the original publisher apologized like the Fox did and removed the cartoon, there wouldn't be such an outrage, however when the Europe did what it did it clearly threw a challenge at Islam. Now they look surprised because their challenge hit its target and caused a retaliation. "Oh, wow, who could see THAT coming!!!"
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Lady_Milena
Honorable
Known Hero
Grannie Sweet Cheeks
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posted February 09, 2006 05:49 PM |
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The big problem of the western civilization is that it simply cannot fancy the ways of people from the east. To any Christian the idea of a suicide being an honorable thing to do is beyond comprehension. I think that still up to date the Ws (let's include Europe and America) could not understand the kamikaze and why any pilot would crash his own plane, knowing that's his end.
Ws do not understand such way of thinking and it pisses me off that a lot of people would have things THEIR way at all costs, just because they know no other way. People - say - in the States are taught to think, money, work, work, work, work, paying off a house, family, in this order.
The way that Muslim people are brought up is: there is one God (Allah) and Muhammud is his prophet. Good Muslim people pray 5 times a day, prostrating themselves. Ws call that brainwashing, Mislims call it devotion.
To get back to the topic, why are Muslim people so enranged? To cut it short, drawing an image of the Prophet is as bad as banning all crucifixes, statues and what not for the Catholics. No, no, I'll give you a better example. Not only is the Prophet drawn but the cartoons ridicule him. To all the Muslim this is as bad as stripping the Americans of ALL their savings in the bank. As I mentioned above, that's the thing that comes first in the nifty row mentioned above.
If that happens to you, some slimmy Muslim stripping you and your family and your town folks and so on and so own of their savings, what would you do?
I can understand why people like Consis would start saying that there is no comparison but in fact that's a very good comparison. It's comparing values. Really, a part of empathy is being able to understand that other people may have a different idea of life's worth.
And Consis, there is a question for you. Say, you were gay and having an interracial relationship, would YOU go down to south Texas holding hands and kissing with a black guy and telling everyone in town you're the happiest gay couple?
I'd love to see that.
I'd also like to see how many seconds you'd last alive. :-D Of course, you're always free to do THAT with a straight friend of yours just for the sake of experiment.
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God does not need exist to save us...
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted February 09, 2006 07:10 PM |
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Good post, Milena. However, I have a small addition.
Quote:
To get back to the topic, why are Muslim people so enranged? To cut it short, drawing an image of the Prophet is as bad as banning all crucifixes, statues and what not for the Catholics. No, no, I'll give you a better example. Not only is the Prophet drawn but the cartoons ridicule him.
One must not forget that both Denmark and Norway are at the moment, or have been within the last six months, participating in the occupation of two Muslim countries. Also, the Danes are the most eager allies of the US in Continental Western Europe, and Norway were, despite our own ridiculous view of ourselves as an impartial mediator, chosen to host the negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians in the early 90s, because we're considered to be an obedient follower of the US in our foreign policies, and an avid supporter of Israel in the Middle East.
On top of this comes the fact that the entire world is verbally attacking Iran for their alledged attempt to develop nuclear weapons, whereas no one seems to care about the nuclear capacity of Israel - which, according to the Non-Proliferation Treaty, is equally illegal.
Furthermore, most Muslim countries are not particularly democratic; quite a few of them are brutal, and often secular, dictatorships. When these countries are poor (or, rather, when the rulers exploit their office in order to enrich themselves), when the possibilities of social mobility or emmigration to more promising lands are almost impossible, when extreme Islamist organizations are the only ones who seem to care about the poor masses, when the West comes and meddles in internal Middle Eastern affairs, when the West neglects the problems of the Middle East (this and the former seems, at first glance, to be contradictory, but they are not: positive intervention is often seen as a good, while negative intervention is not), and so on and so forth, then there's no wonder that there's not much needed to set off an explotion.
So, if one looks at the demonstrations, the death threats and whatnot as the results or consequences of an isolated incident, then one is missing the whole picture, and if one is not seeing the whole picture, then one can never solve anything.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 09, 2006 08:00 PM |
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I believe that the only problem in this situation is that some people let religion rule how they live. When you let people who lived thousands of years ago set the standard of how you should act today and let some fanatics interpret the religion for you, you lose the ability to use common sense and think for yourself.
These years religious people are trying to spread their standards to all areas of society (examples can be found in russ post above this). In USA its cristians in europe its to some extend muslims, and moderate people have to ask themselves if this is something they want in their society. Are these religious values as good as our western values? Therefore I find these cartoons very relevant and the reaction from the muslim world couldnt have given a better answer. There are huge problems in the muslim world, for example people in the middle east simply dont understand the concept of freedom of speach and the fact that the danish goverment is not responsible for these cartoons.
All in all I think it was a good thing that these cartoons were published because we now have a better knowledge about how huge (not all) groops of muslims think, and knowledge about a problem is the first step to improve things.
And to all of you that didnt know this: There is no god!
God was invented by people with the same intelligens as us but with much less knowledge, so they invented god because they needed answers to all the big questions and to lifes cruelties. If you lose your 3rd child to some disease its much nicer to believe that it was gods will and that you will meet them in heaven, than that they are just gone. Today we know about the big bang, the evolution and vira and bactirias but people aparently still need to drug their minds.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Nebuka
Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
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posted February 09, 2006 08:25 PM |
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I actually find Milena's post to be quite awful.
Full of ludicrous comparisons, gross generalisations, and some flawed opinions presented as facts.
Quote:
And Consis, there is a question for you. Say, you were gay and having an interracial relationship, would YOU go down to south Texas holding hands and kissing with a black guy and telling everyone in town you're the happiest gay couple?
I'd love to see that.
I'd also like to see how many seconds you'd last alive. :-D Of course, you're always free to do THAT with a straight friend of yours just for the sake of experiment.
Oh my...
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted February 09, 2006 08:35 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad on 9 Feb 2006
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I agree with Nebuka.
Quote:
To get back to the topic, why are Muslim people so enranged? To cut it short, drawing an image of the Prophet is as bad as banning all crucifixes, statues and what not for the Catholics.
Not really. Banning a few images of Christ in some irrelevant newspapers in Iran is more like it.
Quote:
Not only is the Prophet drawn but the cartoons ridicule him. To all the Muslim this is as bad as stripping the Americans of ALL their savings in the bank. As I mentioned above, that's the thing that comes first in the nifty row mentioned above.
Biased...?
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted February 09, 2006 08:43 PM |
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Quote:
And to all of you that didnt know this: There is no god!
God was invented by people with the same intelligens as us but with much less knowledge, so they invented god because they needed answers to all the big questions and to lifes cruelties. If you lose your 3rd child to some disease its much nicer to believe that it was gods will and that you will meet them in heaven, than that they are just gone. Today we know about the big bang, the evolution and vira and bactirias but people aparently still need to drug their minds.
Unfortunately, many religions are what you've said above. Religion is a well that's been spit in so many times there's barely any water left in it.
However... you said that the god does not exist.
You seem to like scientific approach (just like me), that means you wouldn't make any statements until you have a proof.
According to Google, god is "A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people". I'd really like to see your proof that no being of supernatural powers or attributes exists. Actually, I'd settle with just a partial proof of that (which is "no being of supernatural powers or attributes exists in our universe"). That should make it easier for you to prove this since you only have to prove it for our universe, there is no need to prove it for all of the other universes (if they exist) or any other kinds of existence. ty.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 09, 2006 08:52 PM |
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And how do you proof the existance of such a superpower being?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Nebuka
Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
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posted February 09, 2006 08:56 PM |
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I think burden of proof lies on those that believe in him/her/it.
But that should be some different thread, right?
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 09, 2006 09:15 PM |
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This thing about being insulted and so its ok to burn
flags, issue death threats, assault embassies: I'm
insulted by videos of beheadings, I'm insulted by
demonstators carrying signs saying "remember 911" as if
that will happen again because of a cartoon. In fact,
my religion, which is the religion of me, is totally
offended by the lack of tolerance from narrow minded
fundamentalists...ok, I'm intolerant of intolerance, but
as yet, I have no plans to bomb anybody because of it.
If anybody read that link I posted earlier, you would have
seen that an Egyptian newspaper printed the cartoons. Hey,
lets boycott Egypt. There is so much hypocrisy in all this
fake religious rage I feel like upchucking. The Arab world
regularly prints charicatures with the Star of David
mocking Jews and Israel, yet nothing comes of that.
As far as the existance of God being provable, forget it,
it is a matter of each persons personal experience.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 09, 2006 09:50 PM |
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I dont feel I have to prove anything as long as there is no prove that god exists and there are so many indications that he dosent. Wouldnt the world be a better place if a good god had influence? Would a god let his priests rape chidren? Would he let the bible or koran be full of obvious errors. As I explained earlier people have a need for a god therefore they believe.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted February 09, 2006 10:17 PM |
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Edited by Russ on 9 Feb 2006
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Quote:
And how do you proof the existance of such a superpower being?
Good point. This is exactly why you won't see me make any claims about his/her/its existance - I haven't seen a proof sufficient enough to prove me either of those claims.
Shiva said it really well:
Quote:
As far as the existance of God being provable, forget it,
it is a matter of each persons personal experience.
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted February 09, 2006 10:25 PM |
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I have a question: Do the muslims really call christians and westerners "infidels"? I've heard that but I can't really think they do, I mean - thats an insult if they do, right?
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 09, 2006 10:48 PM |
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Quote:
I have a question: Do the muslims really call christians and westerners "infidels"? I've heard that but I can't really think they do, I mean - thats an insult if they do, right?
Yes, we are all infidels..wait, none of you believe in
my religion, the religion of me. I'm gonna have to issue
a big fat wa against all you unbelievers. Yall better
go into hiding, or I'm gonna unleash a wave of terror
like the world has never seen before..first stop, I'm
gonna blow up Ubi...so no more Heroes v
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Nebuka
Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
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posted February 09, 2006 11:03 PM |
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I believe in you!
Want me to burn some embassies? Just yell. 
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neko
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posted February 09, 2006 11:26 PM |
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Quote:
I have a question: Do the muslims really call christians and westerners "infidels"? I've heard that but I can't really think they do, I mean - thats an insult if they do, right?
similiarly, christians to a certain extent believe that other religions are "pagan" religions, which is not dissimiliar to "infidels". "there can only be one God" as enforced in countless religions, only serve to prove my point.
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http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=16986
Hylozium
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