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| Thread: Studies about Microwave Ovens | |
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted February 15, 2006 03:52 AM |
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted February 15, 2006 09:39 AM |
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Not to discount what he says, but to put it in perspective....personally I'd be much more concerned with having a cell phone next to my head for hundreds of hours. And that goes for any other wireless technology.
The microwaves in a cell phone are very similar to the microwaves in a microwave oven. It's much lower power (I don't know how much, but I'd guess no more than a couple watts), but the cell phone transmitting antenna is right next to your head. And the power coming from that antenna is doing the same thing as the oven does. I've worked in the engineering departments of two different wireless companies (802.11 and wireless internet access). The engineers themselves avoided spending more time in the microwave lab than they needed. There's been no "proof" either way about whether low power microwaves can harm you. But there is at least enough evidence to warrant caution. With a cell/cordless phone, you're better off using a headset with the phone further away. (It's one of those inverse square things. Doubling the distance quarters the energy.)
High voltage power lines from the power company and high power television and radio antennas are also highly suspect because of radiated energy. The Vatican had a very high power transmitter and they ended up in Italian court because of it. I *think* they lost the case and either lowered the power or limited broadcast hours.
In the early 60's we heard the same types of warnings about television. Warnings about cathode rays (the CR in CRT) pointing directly at the viewer. When color TV started getting popular in the mid 60's, it was said to be even worse. And mothers would pull their children from directly in front of the TV. Now we sit with our faces right in front of the computer monitor for hours at a time. If you're using a CRT monitor, behind the screen where you can't see it is a "gun" shooting electron beams directly toward you. The screen is shielded, but some radiated energy still gets past. Is it harmful? I don't know. If I were to guess, I'd say watching those horses running around the map in HOMM is worse....watching video games is a really unnatural thing for eyes to do.
There are similar principles involved in ALL electronic devices. Any time electricity flows through metal, it transmits electromagnetic radiation.....always. The laws of physics say so. The reverse is also true. Any time electromagnetic waves pass through metal, it causes electricity to flow. For example, the electricity flowing in your computer transmits EM waves. When those waves pass through the fillings in your teeth, it causes electricity to flow in the fillings. Your fillings are literally a receiving antenna picking up EM waves from everywhere in the world.
Putting it all in perspective, we are completely surrounded by thousands of harmful, or potentially harmful things. Microwave ovens, cell phones, pollution, mass produced foods, pesticides and rednecks. We always hear of increasing rates of cancer, with some man-made product being suspected of causing it. But at the same time the average longevity continues to increase. Why? I don'know, but assume the advances in medicine are faster than the creation of harmful products. So technology is a double edged sword. And the overall increase in longevity is very telling.
We can't eliminate all the harmful things around us. We have to make decisions based on whatever information we can find and our own common sense. We have to evaluate the information as to it's pertinence and credibility. And most of all, we have to weigh that information against the lifestyle we want to live. Being a reactionary about every news report on the latest "medical evidence" will drive a person crazy. One day coffee is bad for you, and the next it has benefits. If I want to have a cup of coffee heated in the microwave, I'm going to have it....and enjoy every minute of it. If it makes me happy, what more can I ask out of life?
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Lady_Milena
Honorable
Known Hero
Grannie Sweet Cheeks
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posted February 15, 2006 02:58 PM |
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Quote:
[pesticides ...] and rednecks
... touche.
P.S. I do agree with this. I do agree cellphones, computers, TV, ACs and what not are not good for your health. But on the other hand, if we get rid of all of these, we'd have to go back to the stone era.
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God does not need exist to save us...
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted February 15, 2006 03:01 PM |
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Hmm . . .
Well if all that was true then I'd have been dead long ago, and my three children too. I use microwave ovens for everything. I use it for all the children's milk bottles, my lunches, dinners, and breakfasts too.
Guess I'm not dead yet.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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LordZXZX
Famous Hero
Overfished
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posted February 15, 2006 03:18 PM |
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I've heard of a person who microwaved a cup of water in the microwave then taking out the cup. Steam was coming out of the cup and the person went to look over the cup. Then hot boiling water splashed all over his face. Sounds scary, i heat water in the microwave often and never has that happened to me b4.
I also heard of some young girl who microwaved eggs. She got blind in one eye because the eggs exploded after she took them out and the eggshells went into her eye.
So, if u have children, teach them not to microwave eggs with their shells.
Besides, i prefer using a toaster oven anyways.
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Guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
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posted February 15, 2006 03:26 PM |
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Darn, there always seems to be a catch to everything. I didn't understand a good half of that article (all that scientific stuff) but I read enough to feel a little concerned. I, along with my family, also use the microwave every day. We reheat leftovers from previous nights, and I've got frozen dinners in the freezer waiting for their turn. It's kind of like a slap in the face to know what all of that microwaving can do to you.
Fortunately, I rarely use cellphones. Still, I don't like the idea of heating up my TV dinners with nothing but two sticks...
-Guitarguy
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted February 15, 2006 09:14 PM |
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Binabik, do you have any info about what kind of effect a standard radio phone (10-20m range) has in comparison to cellphone in terms of energy wave emmissions and their frequency?
If you do use a cell phone, it's best to hold it on the left of your head as the right side is the creative/intuitive hemisphere, which is more sensitive. Not saying this is scientifically proven.
I always felt like moving further away from a working microwave, and the microwaved vegetables do indeed have an artificial feel.
Also don't like staying in proximity of cellphone towers. I have a cellphone, which I've used reluctantly, until I've decided to stop - switched it off and put a voicemail message asking people to call my landline. Makes for a calmer life too Also don't want to have wireless lan and internet.
The computer is not in my bedroom and I've upgraded to LCD screen. First one gave me real eye pain - putting it on DVI cable gave a bit of improvement until I changed it to a good screen later. Now I aim to not use the computer after 9pm, find it a lot better for my eyes to do that.
I haven't had a TV for years. Interesting thing though, I can feel energy from the TV when it's on standby. When it's unplugged, I really do feel it's off. You don't have to trust me on that - appliances consume a few watts of power when on standby.
I'd say 90%+ of my cooking is on the electric pan, which is more efficient than stove top, and very fast/easy to achieve a stirfy+steaming effect.
I'm also silencing my comp at the moment - replacing the fans and PSU to very quiet ones, the noise is quite irritating when I'm not using the comp and it's on and downloading stuff.
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted February 15, 2006 09:54 PM |
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Wow.
For starters, this part is ridiculous:
Quote:
Motherly instincts are right
On a more humorous side, the "sixth sense" every mother has is impossible to argue with. Have you ever tried it? Children will never win against a mother's intuition. It's like trying to argue with the arm - appearing out of nowhere - that pinned you to the back of the seat when your mother slammed on the brakes.
Many of us come from a generation where mothers and grandmothers have distrusted the modern "inside out" cooking they claimed was "not suitable" for most foods. My mother refused to even try baking anything in a microwave.
[...]
Chalk one up for mom's perception, because even though she didn't know the scientific, technical, or health reasons why, she just knew that microwave ovens were not good based on how foods tasted when they were cooked in them. She didn't like the way the texture of the microwaved food changed either.
This part is horrible, put has nothing to do with science:
Quote:
Microwaved blood kills patient
In 1991, there was a lawsuit in Oklahoma concerning the hospital use of a microwave oven to warm blood needed in a transfusion. The case involved a hip surgery patient, Norma Levitt, who died from a simple blood transfusion.
It seems the nurse had warmed the blood in a microwave oven. This tragedy makes it very apparent that there's much more to "heating" with microwaves than we've been led to believe. Blood for transfusions is routinely warmed, but not in microwave ovens. In the case of Mrs. Levitt, the microwaving altered the blood and it killed her.
It's very obvious that this form of microwave radiation "heating" does something to the substances it heats. It's also becoming quite apparent that people who process food in a microwave oven are also ingesting these "unknowns".
Because the body is electrochemical in nature, any force that disrupts or changes human electrochemical events will affect the physiology of the body. This is further described in Robert O. Becker's book, The Body Electric, and in Ellen Sugarman's book, Warning, the Electricity Around You May Be Hazardous to Your Health.
Blood is heated to 36 C, not boiled in a microwave! 
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted February 16, 2006 07:49 AM |
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Quote:
Binabik, do you have any info about what kind of effect a standard radio phone (10-20m range) has in comparison to cellphone in terms of energy wave emmissions and their frequency?
No. I took a one semester class in microwave theory in school and have read general information on the subject of health effects. But nothing specific to lower frequencies like that (low compared to cell phone). In general I think lower frequencies would not be as bad. But you have to take into account the transmitting power, proximity of the antenna and exposure time.
Is that a ham radio? It would be different in each country, but in the US about 70-80% of that band is allocated to ham radio.
Quote:
If you do use a cell phone, it's best to hold it on the left of your head as the right side is the creative/intuitive hemisphere, which is more sensitive.
I don't know why the right side would be more sensitive. Both sides are made of the same stuff. I would think alternating sides with the cell phone would be best.
Quote:
I haven't had a TV for years. Interesting thing though, I can feel energy from the TV when it's on standby. When it's unplugged, I really do feel it's off. You don't have to trust me on that
I believe that. TVs and CRT monitors build up a large amount of energy. Even after being unplugged it can take a long time for that energy to dissipate....like weeks, not minutes. That's why messing with the inside of a TV that's been off for a long time can be extremely dangerous.....possibly even deadly.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted February 16, 2006 09:15 AM |
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Quote:
Blood is heated to 36 C, not boiled in a microwave!
Yes! I was going to mention that Oklahoma case in my first post, but it was already long.
I know a little bit about this. I worked for a company which made blood freezing and thawing equipment. I did some of the design work on the thawing machine. This is medical equipment, so it has to be approved by the FDA (the US agency which approves medical equipment, drugs, etc).
During the testing process, the FDA looks for exactly what the article talked about....the destruction or alteration of blood cells. There is ALWAYS some destruction during the thawing process no matter what method is used. The FDA looks at the percentage of destroyed or altered cells and compares it to other existing methods. I don' really remember, but it seems like it may have been around 1-2% cell destruction.
Overheating the blood becomes very destructive. I don't remember the temperatures for sure, but I think the machine I worked on heated the blood to 34-36C. At somewhere around 38C an alarm went off. It not only stopped the process, but completely shut down the entire machine except for the alarm system. The alarm kept sounding until someone came and reset the machine. The purpose for this was so there wouldn't be any doubt that an over temperature had occured. All the blood in the machine had to be thrown away.
It wouldn't surprise me if the microwave in Oklahoma simply over-heated the blood.
BTW I googled this story. The Oklahoma story and all the other ones in Val's link are all over the internet, word-for-word.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted February 20, 2006 05:57 PM |
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Valeriy -
Just FYI this guy is a total quack. Recently (well, a few months ago) an "acquaintance" of mine tried to convince my wife that drinking diet coke (or more specifically, consuming aspartame and other artificial sweeteners) was disasterously deleterious to your health because they were, to quote, "neurotoxins". Long story short - I was bored one day and I wanted to see how common this misconception was and so I googled it and wound up at this guy's website (and a number of others). Most of the things he says, if not downright wrong, are completely oversimplified or presented wholly out of context. His website on Splenda is here: http://www.mercola.com/2004/jul/21/splenda.htm
If you're interested, I wrote a long essay on all the things that are wrong with his "science" at the RT: http://www.forumplanet.com/StrategyPlanet/homm/topic.asp?fid=5700&tid=1678836&p=2 It's on second page in the thread. (I've also written articles on the aspartame-neurotoxin myth as well, but I never posted them because I didn't think anyone on the RT would really be interested).
Anyway, given how awful was "Dr Mercola's" article on Splenda (sucralose), I naturally find anything he writes suspect. A lot of the things he says about Microwaves don't make any sense. Even his description of how microwave ovens heat food is not very good... and the language is carefully phrased to make you fearful.
Here's an example paragraph of that. "Dr." Mercola writes:
Quote: "All wave energy changes polarity from positive to negative with each cycle of the wave. In microwaves, these polarity changes happen millions of times every second."
Comment: All EM waves do. Radiation from the sun does as well. This is nothing unusual about microwaves.
Quote: "As these microwaves generated from the magnetron bombard the food, they cause the polar molecules to rotate at the same frequency millions of times a second."
Comment: Basically all molecules absorb low-frequency radiation. It excites molecular rotational states. The microwave oven puts out radiowaves of a frequency that matches the absorption energy of water, so that water is selectively excited. This causes the water molecules to rotate. When they eventually slow down, they must get rid of that energy, and they do so by emitting heat, which heats up the surrounding food.
In that context, Quote: "This unusual type of heating also causes substantial damage to the surrounding molecules, often tearing them apart or forcefully deforming them."
Comment: "Tearing molecules up and forcefully deforming them" is the very definition of "cooking". When you saute a pork chop in a pan, you are denaturing proteins, which basically means that you are deforming the proteins from their native structures. There is nothing unusual about this. The same thing happens if you marinate meat in lemon juice.
I won't go through the rest of his crap point by point because I don't have the time right now, but here are two obvious "red flags":
1. The guy never cites anything. On first glance, it appears that he does, but look closer: Sometimes he refers to books, but books, unless they are basic text-books, are not REAL sources of information. To be credible, a scientist needs to cite peer-reviewed journals, and you'll find there is not a single such citation on this web page. When someone talks about "A study in 1988..." done by "researchers" but doesn't bother to cite the research, it means (A) he made it up, (b) he's only presenting a portion of the research that supports his claims or (C) the research was not considered good enough to actually make it into a journal. Interestingly enough, when I was doing my aspartame article, I found some people who actually did cite some peer-reviewed journals. But when I actually checked the cited journal articles, they were either totally misrepresented or taken out of context.
2. The guy is selling something. Any time you see "scientific articles" by some "doctor" who is also selling you "books and supplements", you should be wary. Enough said.
Anyway, I see this stuff a lot on-line. You have to be very careful what you believe. Most people with web-pages like this have no idea what they're talking about. But they are very good at using language and "phantom evidence" to convince you that they do, and to convince you that you should be "afraid, very afraid". I have a big problem with people who use such "pseudoscience" to dupe nonscientists into false fears and to purchase bogus products. My recommendation is that you look towards reputable sources for things that you should be careful about.
My own opinion is that microwave ovens are completely safe. They are shielded, so microwaves cannot escape to the outside to harm you (not that they would harm you anyway - the only way they could would be to "cook" you, and you'd have to have a lot of them to do so). Food that is cooked by microwaves is cooked in the same way everything else is: heat breaks down the food. The only difference is where the heat comes from.
About the only good point he makes in the entire article is the fact that microwaves can "superheat" liquids, and it's true I would not recommend heating baby formula using this method. But as for reheating left-overs... well, I think you're fine.
As for cell-phones: again, I don't really see how microwave radiation from cell phones can harm you. Microwaves are generally too low energy to cause cancer (or more specifically - to break bonds in your DNA molecules) - generally you need high energy UV or Xray photons to do that. I'd worry more about getting cancer from walking outside without sunscreen than I would about getting it from my cell-phone. Unless of course, you stuck yourself in a microwave oven... and then you'd have bigger problems than cancer.
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