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| Thread: Heroes 3 Town Rating -CASTLE- |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV |
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 03, 2016 01:52 PM |
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Online means something else than playing on internet. Means human vs human, which means brain vs brain, not brain vs dead AI brain. You could also include to this hotseat or lan play, is same as online, as concept. That's why multiplayer should be first observed when you give ratings. Is like keeping boxing a punching bag then claim you strike hard.
Then, and only then, give your opinions about how good is a town on a given map pattern, under x conditions, if you had your morning coffee, with reloads and such. Then people simply don't play water maps because is a waste of time, a) you lose turn when embark, b) water terrain is discriminated in editor, is clearly racist. I agree that water maps can be GREAT if done well, but then must be heavily edited, to take care of game fluidity and compensate this terrain lack of features.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 03, 2016 02:56 PM |
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Multiplayer is taking place in a very special environment, that is by its very nature geared to be balanced on one hand, and is supposed to offer a maximum of playing action within a minimum of time/turns.
Even human vs. human is offering an incomplete picture, because it's an indirect comparison most of the time.
A game like HoMM has to be asymmetrically balanced which means, for example, that you will have cheaper/faster-to-build towns with less powerful creatures. Ideally, there should be a game format that is balanced - a middleground of a playing environment in which everything tends to even out.
Obviously, the larger the map and the more enemies to fight, for example, the more Skeletons Necropolis will have raised/converted.
When evaluating a town, I used to start with, "suppose you have no idea what kind of map you will play (and here the interesting thing is, that it suddenly doesn't matter anymore whether it's MP or not) - how the map will look and so on; all parameters are random. What town would you play and why?"
I did that because I think, with this way of looking at it you'd rate towns for their general versatility and quality.
For example - you'd get a RANDOM hero(es) as well, so the question isn't, what hero gives me exceptional play, but instead what town will offer me RANDOMLY the best heroes?
That doesn't mean, the rating cannot look completely different when you KNOW what you are up against, but it doesn't mean either, you can conclude from the very special MP environment to general
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 03, 2016 04:20 PM |
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When you rated towns you totally ignored the randomness factor, which means how your hero develop in interaction with ANY map, despite the skills probabilities, what skills he will almost always get, despite the low percentage chances, how can certain towns deal with early fights, what artefacts are easy to find then what dwellings usually are generated more by generator thus will advantage one or another faction.
I think heroes should stay far away from perfect balance and symmetrical maps, because there are those random parameters -which can change from a game to another -that bring players back for one more game, in my opinion.
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Anil
Known Hero
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posted May 03, 2016 04:26 PM |
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I'm very confused. Some people think, castle is bad town ?! wierd for me.
Castle has the highest total unit strength.
Halberdier: Best lvl 1 unit.
Marksmen: Above average.
Griffin: Best lvl 3 unit.
Crusader: Above average.
Zealot: Average.
Champion: Above average.
Archangel: Best lvl 7 unit.
i really wonder what is your town rating?
Me:
1) Castle (without Armageddon)
2) Conflux (without Armageddon)
3) Dungeon
4) Necropolis
5) Rampart
6) Tower
7) Fortress
8) Stronghold
9) Inferno.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted May 03, 2016 04:42 PM |
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Anil said:
Halberdier: Best lvl 1 unit.
Best at what? Same goes more or less for the rest. Halbediers may have best A/D/dmg/Hp combination for any level 1 unit, but how useful are they considering their speed anyway? I'd prefer Sprites, Centaur Captains and Master Gremlins. I like e.g. Crusaders because of their huge damage potential, with growth 8, 2 strikes assuming a soaked up retal and ~10 dmg, we're looking at 160 dmg total! Frenzy it for 4x damage and their damage exceeds the hp growth of any unit apart from the Phoenix iIRC. Also that's why I would e.g. find the GE to have more potential usefulness than the Royal Griffins despite Griffins having the best stats overall for a level 3 units when also considering their speed. Or Dragon Flies that allows Fortress to be faster than Stronghold and Tower could also be mentioned.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted May 03, 2016 05:03 PM |
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Anil said:
I'm very confused. Some people think, castle is bad town ?! wierd for me.Castle has the highest total unit strength.
It seems weird to you because you have probably not played online or vs a player who has experience playing online.
Looking at individual units can be good for certain investigations, but is overall avoided because of the example Ohforfsake gave. Not to mention that you rank the town after numbers and not actual play.
My personal list goes like this (for Jebus L/XL): Necro and Flux banned.
1. Tower
2. Inferno
3. Stronghold
4. Dungeon
5. Rampart
6. Castle
7. Fortress
The towns in the top 3 tier tend to shift for me depending on my mood for them but this is my overal attitude as it is now.
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Anil
Known Hero
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posted May 03, 2016 05:14 PM |
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Edited by Anil at 17:15, 03 May 2016.
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OhforfSake said:
Anil said:
Halberdier: Best lvl 1 unit.
Best at what? Same goes more or less for the rest. Halbediers may have best A/D/dmg/Hp combination for any level 1 unit, but how useful are they considering their speed anyway? I'd prefer Sprites, Centaur Captains and Master Gremlins. I like e.g. Crusaders because of their huge damage potential, with growth 8, 2 strikes assuming a soaked up retal and ~10 dmg, we're looking at 160 dmg total! Frenzy it for 4x damage and their damage exceeds the hp growth of any unit apart from the Phoenix iIRC. Also that's why I would e.g. find the GE to have more potential usefulness than the Royal Griffins despite Griffins having the best stats overall for a level 3 units when also considering their speed. Or Dragon Flies that allows Fortress to be faster than Stronghold and Tower could also be mentioned.
Yes Halberdier is best lvl 1 unit. Speed is not big problem in large maps. You can take tactic skills and speed speed-enhancing artifact. Also Halberdiers more cheap than Centaur Captains.
Master Gremlins are useless in long games.
Grand Elves and Dragon Fly both good but i prefer Royal Griffin. Elves and Dragon Fly are more fragile than Griffin.
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Anil
Known Hero
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posted May 03, 2016 05:17 PM |
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Ebonheart said:
Anil said:
I'm very confused. Some people think, castle is bad town ?! wierd for me.Castle has the highest total unit strength.
It seems weird to you because you have probably not played online or vs a player who has experience playing online.
Looking at individual units can be good for certain investigations, but is overall avoided because of the example Ohforfsake gave. Not to mention that you rank the town after numbers and not actual play.
My personal list goes like this (for Jebus L/XL): Necro and Flux banned.
1. Tower
2. Inferno
3. Stronghold
4. Dungeon
5. Rampart
6. Castle
7. Fortress
The towns in the top 3 tier tend to shift for me depending on my mood for them but this is my overal attitude as it is now.
why inferno 2.nd best town?
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted May 03, 2016 05:21 PM |
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Anil said:
Yes Halberdier is best lvl 1 unit. Speed is not big problem in large maps. You can take tactic skills and speed speed-enhancing artifact. Also Halberdiers more cheap than Centaur Captains.
But how relevant is your stack of Halbediers when you've speed boosting arts, or just expert tactics? Halberdiers, if you even upg. Pikemen, will mainly slow down your army and won't add that much after first week, or perhaps second week depending on the map. And again I ask, what are halbediers best at exactly? The way I see it, it is a unit meant to soak up damage, which they're the best among level 1 units at doing, but doesn't make them spectacular in my opinion.
Anil said:
Master Gremlins are useless in long games.
No. But to be clear, what kind of time period does "long games" mean?
Anil said:
Elves and Dragon Fly are more fragile than Griffin.
I'll remember that next time I move my GE's into melee as the meat shield I thought they were. 
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Anil
Known Hero
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posted May 03, 2016 05:36 PM |
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Edited by Anil at 17:37, 03 May 2016.
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Because Master Gremlins have low hp low defence, also meele penalty. Unit is vulnerable. Only useful in early game.
Long Games= Large, XL maps...
Speed and shooters more valuable than durability in only early game, but later, durability more valauble.
Which unit do you prefer? Dread Knight or Cyclops King ?
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted May 03, 2016 05:45 PM |
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I meant in weeks. How long do you imagine a game has to take, before MG's become useless? In a full fleshed main battle with 7th level units, their low damage isn't relevant I agree, but that doesn't make them irrelevant throughout the game anyway.
Considering the growth rate of first level unit, I still don't see how Halberdiers stay relevant. They're not particular durable compared to other units iIRC (I believe their hp growth / week is around 450), only compared to first level unit. If your point is that it doesn't matter much if you have sprites, CC's or MG's in the fully fleshed final battle I'd agree, but then I'd say the same goes for Halberdiers and only focusing on the final ignores the just as important road to the final where those units can be very useful.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted May 03, 2016 06:02 PM |
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Anil said:
Because Master Gremlins have low hp low defence, also meele penalty. Unit is vulnerable. Only useful in early game.
Long Games= Large, XL maps...
Speed and shooters more valuable than durability in only early game, but later, durability more valauble.
Which unit do you prefer? Dread Knight or Cyclops King ?
As per your first question regarding Inferno - the reasons are:
1. Demon farming which gives you a heavy hitting demon stack.
2. The Devils can solo fights and in ways a normal army can't, this means you have 2 power-heroes cleaning the map.
3. Good synergy between Arch Devil's and Efreet's speed/fire immunity.
4. Lv 5 magi guild
5. Demoniacs, while not the best, are sturdy main heroes.
As for your view on Master Gremlins, they are one of the best lv 1s because of their high numbers and ranged ability. Due to this, they can actually deal more damage than your Titan stack in the end fight.
When it comes to long games, a L/XL map tends to have the end fight at around W3-W4, in some cases during the end of W2.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 03, 2016 06:17 PM |
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OhforfSake said:
How long do you imagine a game has to take, before MG's become useless?
The awser is: the moment the price of having their speed slowing your main becomes greather then the advantage of their firepower, it can be just the first week if you're lucky enouch with creature banks.
But this is even more truth for pikes.
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markmasters
Famous Hero
Dragon of justice
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posted May 03, 2016 06:22 PM |
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I think castle is best at medium sized maps. It mainly needs wood and ore to develop the town which gives quick access to a variety of troops.
Iv huge maps castle loses it's advantage, they are vulnerable to all spells and many units have below average hp and die quickly (except the sturdy units that slow your hero down perhaps).
On small maps I think fortress and stronghold can out-tech Castle
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Anil
Known Hero
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posted May 03, 2016 06:28 PM |
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Inferno is terrible weak town, lvl 1,2,4,5,7 are very weak. unnecessary upgrades (lvl 4, lvl 5)
+1 speed bonus for pit fiends. You need pay +200 more gold! Lol
Devils and Dwellings are incredibly expensive. More weak than Black and Gold Dragons, but more expensive. Also no immunity and resistance.
I never pick this town.
Maybe only good in small maps, because so easy build lvl6 dwelling and devils probably best non-upgrade lvl7 unit.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 03, 2016 06:36 PM |
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Anil said:
and devils probably best non-upgrade lvl7 unit.
Don't take me wrong, I love Archdevils but devils being relyable unupgraded level 7 is doubtable, cause mid game any enemy will have some free angels from cons to deal them 50% extra damage.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted May 03, 2016 06:51 PM |
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Anil said:
Inferno is terrible weak town, lvl 1,2,4,5,7 are very weak. unnecessary upgrades (lvl 4, lvl 5)
Lv 1, 2, 3 are weak which is good, cause you want to turn them into demons.
Anil said:
+1 speed bonus for pit fiends. You need pay +200 more gold! Lol
You overlooked the most important ability - demon resurrection. A unit stack with a total of 35 hp = 1 demon when risen. The more creatures you can rise, the more demons you will have after each battle.
Anil said:
Devils and Dwellings are incredibly expensive. More weak than Black and Gold Dragons, but more expensive. Also no immunity and resistance.
All 7 dwellings are expensive in their own way but I do not find the devil dwelling to be harder than any other 7 dwell to build. Not to mention that while devils are "weaker" than a gold or black dragon, their non-retaliation combined with teleport opens up many doors. Can your 1-3 gold/black dragons beat 140 Iron Golems for instance? No. But the devils can. They have their weak sides but as do every creature.
Anil said:
Maybe only good in small maps, because so easy build lvl6 dwelling and devils probably best non-upgrade lvl7 unit.
I find this town very tricky to use on a small map as encounters tends to happen before you can even get your Efreets.
Anil said:
I never pick this town.
After your reasoning, I can see why.
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