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Heroes Community > Tournament of Honor > Thread: ToH and HOMM 5
Thread: ToH and HOMM 5 This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
zilonite
zilonite


Famous Hero
posted March 21, 2006 06:02 PM

ToH and HOMM 5

Just wanted to ask about the ToH and HOMM 5 - will there be any changes in ToH after the new game will come out? For example, changes in reporting system, will the ToH still support HOMM3 and HOMM4 etc. May be Vesuvius or somebody else can make up a little preview about it? :-)

And for all other players - how about suggestions for ToH, facing new times? For example, in another thread I saw a suggestion about game reporting that the game should be reported before it starts as well as after it ends, which seems to be a good idea for me.
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vesuvius
vesuvius

Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
posted March 21, 2006 06:11 PM

Hi Zilonite, there is some tweaking in the automation, but the most significant will be the implementation of the duel matches into the ranking -- so that it can be reported for winloss points, but it will carry less value for the main ranking of course.

My biggest concern with this is honor -- players in theory could decide to report a duel game as a full game, just to boost the points and such and increase their records.  Issues I'm considering....

About homm3/4, unless homm5 really sucks, I will no longer have rankings for h3/h4.  History and veteran icons will of course carry over.  In theory it is possible for a veteran to carry over up to 10 veteran icons, covering the 10 seasons since ToH opened.

This thread seems to be a good one to discuss ideas, so go ahead guys and post ideas here.

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zilonite
zilonite


Famous Hero
posted March 22, 2006 06:02 PM

Quote:
the most significant will be the implementation of the duel matches into the ranking -- so that it can be reported for winloss points.


I would vote against adding duel games to ToH rankings for at least two reasons:
1)guess the same idea, why small maps were not accepted - the luck factor is too big for both players to show real skills here and to take those games too seriously;
2)hard times for honor council authority - its almost certainly that it would not be possible to save any duel games, so honor council will be helpless to force somebody to report their loses.

Yet generally those seems to be good news. As life changes, toh need some changes, too, and its good that Ves is working on this all. So keep it up, man!
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jb239
jb239


Famous Hero
posted March 23, 2006 06:19 PM

Not sure how Duel matches will be.. but it might be best to make them into some sub tourney.

You can make it simple by keeping it automated, but have someones regular score and then duel match score seperate. It can also help differentiate who is the best duel match player.

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vesuvius
vesuvius

Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
posted March 26, 2006 07:00 PM

but what if Duel matches were considered of much lesser value, such as 4 or 5 base points, as opposed to the main 30 points?  And it could be so that there is no point differential calculation.  So no matter what rank you're playing, it would be 4 pts for win 3 pts for loss etc...
Since its more luck-based, then you wouldn't have to worry about playing someone of much lower rank and losing to luck.

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Arangar
Arangar


Famous Hero
Weak ranger - lost viking
posted March 27, 2006 12:47 PM

That would introduce noob farming though...



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Arangar
Arangar


Famous Hero
Weak ranger - lost viking
posted March 27, 2006 01:01 PM

Quote:
Not sure how Duel matches will be.. but it might be best to make them into some sub tourney.

You can make it simple by keeping it automated, but have someones regular score and then duel match score seperate. It can also help differentiate who is the best duel match player.


I agree with this, but I guess we will have to wait and see if the duel mode is suited for competitive play

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zilonite
zilonite


Famous Hero
posted March 28, 2006 11:02 AM

Quote:
That would introduce noob farming though...



Agree on that - those 4 points, which top10 players can get for free might be way too easy, if compared with, e.g., ~10 points, which top10 can take playing against top40-50 player (still should be fairly hard game+fairly long game+risk of losing a looot more).

However, if rank system still applies in duels, then may be 10-15% of the normal game points can work out good and addict more ppl to toh
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Xarfax111
Xarfax111


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
posted March 29, 2006 10:16 PM

I think there should be place for a small line for every report, instead of a honor button. That would give a better picture of the player.

Like:

"Was fun to play with, nice and fair"
"Gave me a hard but fair fight. Full recommandation"
"Nice and fair"
"Best player ever"
....etc.

Or:

"Does everything for a win, not my style"
"Annoying language during game"
"Dropped two times and never came back"

So more player would try to get 90% positive Feedback. You also would see who played whom, and how it ended. Bad feedback wouldnt be that much as some would just see if someone can lose or not. But if there will be a bad feedback then you can compare your experience with it.

At least it would reduce those pointhuggers that do everything for a win.


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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 30, 2006 01:04 PM

Quote:
I think there should be place for a small line for every report, instead of a honor button. That would give a better picture of the player.


Agree with that, but it wont stop people misrepresenting the facts, purely because they can.

Having said that, if you approach it the right way and play games honorably, the problems should be limited. Lets face it, 99% of the time we know why certain players have "low honor" or "disgraceful honor" (dropping, avoiding saves, map viewing, save viewing, dishonorable play etc etc). We know that these problems "follow" certain players around. Perhaps a small comments bar in the form of choices might suffice. I still think the system works ok though.

and pleade no reporting duel games for main ranks
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Arangar
Arangar


Famous Hero
Weak ranger - lost viking
posted March 30, 2006 02:09 PM

Xarfax111: I doubt such a thing would help at all. What prevents dishonorable players from saying bad things about you then? I sure don't want any bad comments on my record. That's like the biggest reason why I don't play "lower ranked" players I don't know - they might put dishonorable just because I "crushed" them.. with fair play (but how can a "noob" tell what's fair?)

So here are 2 scenarios:

1. You play an honorable opponent and win with fair play - his report states that you're a daym sweetheart - but why would you care about this? This guy will play you again no matter what your record says - mission accomplished - you don't need any line for this

2. You play a dishonorable player - you report that he's abusing/cheating/is annoying - whatever- and he reports likewise about you (why wouldn't he? He has nothing to lose)

Now you're stuck with this "report" on your record and you have to defend yourself before every game with players that do not know you.

And the dishonorable player? It will be his word against your word ->

..now we're back where we started.. except you're even more pissed off.

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Xarfax111
Xarfax111


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
posted March 30, 2006 03:05 PM

...well Arangar, thats EXACTLY the point: With the comment you will try even harder NOT to play asholes then before. That will keep the asholes out of the tourney.

You will talk with other players youve good experience with about other players. You would only play players which other players did recommend. Especially THAT will really help you to get what you want: A nice pleasant game.

People would thing twice BEFORE they start to BOW a rule they made up ...like in case of H3 make a hit and run which may suits to the rule made up but NOT to fair play...or think twice before make some lame catapult destroying castle sitting.

What do you think how many honorable players would play a ashole with the following comment on his record:

"He prefered to sit like a coward in his castle and destroyed may catapult. My congrats to his win"

Or a comment i couldve give to a win Frank insisted me to report years before:

"I was drunken and did upgrade the Gargs instead of the Mastergremlin day1. We only played that day but he wanted me to report his win"

My guess is that THOSE kind of wins show what a peep is all about. The current system couldnt do that.

I promise these small lines, will give 100% more nice and fun games then there ever were in toh-point-hugging times.

At least i would implement it for a test-phase, and if it doesnt work properly you can still turn it off.
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Maximus
Maximus


Famous Hero
Bronzed God
posted March 30, 2006 05:31 PM

maybe a system akin to something like ebay

i mean, report game win/loss, then feedback on honorable, neutral, or not honorable and show who made this post on players profile page along with any extra comments they may wish to add.

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Ghasteater
Ghasteater


Known Hero
posted March 30, 2006 07:55 PM

Comments for every game is nice.

Quote:
"Does everything for a win, not my style"


It is about me.

Quote:
What do you think how many honorable players would play a ashole with the following comment on his record:

"He prefered to sit like a coward in his castle and destroyed may catapult. My congrats to his win"


I  will play.

Seems that things will bebetter to honor/dishonor point.

Everyone have his own style.

Someone likes that someone not.

And i not afraid slow players, but dislike play huge maps e.t.c...




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dimis
dimis


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
posted March 30, 2006 09:26 PM

My vote to Xarfax's proposal

I really like the idea Xarfax has. I also don't think there will occur storing issues. I mean, think about a player with 1000 games and a different 'description-string' for each game he had. Let's say each string consists of about 50-60 letters. This means that each player needs about 50-60 kBytes of space for that purpose. Even if there are 20.000 people, we are talking for about 1 GB. However, if there are problems with the equipment, I can donate a hard disk of about 5 GB (something like that - I don't remember the exact capacity since I don't use it) for that purpose (you can use this statement and simply mail me the mailing address so that I can ship it over to you). On the other hand, since reading about a thousand reviews for this player is unrealistic, perhaps people can read other people's comments after the game and are urged to vote once () on the review that suits them most. I mean, if people are urged to do something like that, later, these reviews will be viewed in order of votes and of course, this will speed up the process when someone wants to view the status of his opponent before the game.
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valkyrica
valkyrica


Supreme Hero
posted April 01, 2006 08:10 AM

Arangar is right on the point here.

Comments are utterly useless really, and the "ebay" system has its flaws as well. Even there are people with 99% rating that have thousands of items shipped in the most perfect of conditions, but sometimes they'll screw up one of them.
And when they do and you're on the receiving end, do you really care that they've had 1000s of satisfied customers while you were the one that got the boot ? NO.

As Ghasteater, there's different styles for different people. There's the rusher style, there's the constant disconnect style (which I do not condone), the build-huge army style, the let's clear our area style, the friendly-we'll-attack-when -we-agree style, etc.

When 2 different styles play, one of them is bound to be unhappy with the game. Ended too fast, he couldn't get all ths spells, other player sat in town for a week, etc.

Moreso, after each defeat you are boiling mad, I know I am, on the luck, on myself, on the other player, we need to blame something/someone, we're human beings. When we are mad we do rash things, that we'll later regret and cannot erase.

In a nutshell, comments aren't necessary, if you are dedicated to the game, you'll get to know pretty much who's worth playing or not.

And to prevent noobs getting crushed, well that's gonna happen regardless of the other player being nice or not.
Except for the times when the "new" player is a shadow of an old one, proving himself to be strangely gifted !

The other problem is, even if it's not that big of a deal, it clogs up the calls to the database, getting 1 more field back from the query, setting that field in a separate table if the database's normalized, etc.

Minor thing, but they all add up, assuming a huge player base with the game.

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Xarfax111
Xarfax111


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
posted April 01, 2006 04:19 PM

I think you really dont understand the ebay system at all. Of course even the highest ratings, CANT prevent you from being the one that made a bad deal. But the Chances are LOWER. Ebay is all about the probabilies.

Lets say in practise. Youve two peeps with 50 comments. One has 1 bad comment and one has 10 bad comments. Well the chancesare higher with the first peep to have a good deal, dont you think?? Same thing would be with the players.

I actually didnt know that "disconnecting on purpose" was actually a matter of "style" (i thought it is cheating)...lol...true is that people have different tastes, but the examples you made are hilarous ...if a player "loves to sit in a town" iMHo it would be good that it is stated on his record, other players will be warned, what a lame peep that is....

I dont like to loose too! Ive had several games when i was pissed for hours cause ive lost that game, few when i did even bite into the table. Still i did press the honor button for this dude, if he played with honor. Everything else would just show low sportsmanship and a weak character. If you really suffer, as you stated, that u cant handle a loss like a man, then i would like to advice you to work on this lack of character.

So the good thing with the system is that i also works the other way around! Means..if someone gives constantly bad comments the other players, the players will see that too! Everyone will quickly see that this peeps acts like a little child when he looses and he will get lesser and lesser games.

To avoid very strange statements it might be a good idea to fix the lines you can make from a +3 to a -3 rating. Lets say +3 would be "Very fair and nice game" to -3 "Unpleasant game and low sportsmanship". This would also drastically reduce the data amount.

Still im with the "ebay system", and if i would be Ves and could put it into practise, i would at least give it a 3 month try, how it works in practise.

Xarfax1









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zilonite
zilonite


Famous Hero
posted April 02, 2006 12:15 AM

Thumb up for Xar's suggestion, yet in the most simple possible form (e.g., this pre-set review system seems fairly good).

I would even expand the suggestion into more general one - to add to TOH player profile as much info as Ves only can secure technically.



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Arangar
Arangar


Famous Hero
Weak ranger - lost viking
posted April 02, 2006 01:34 PM

Quote:
I actually didnt know that "disconnecting on purpose" was actually a matter of "style" (i thought it is cheating)...lol...true is that people have different tastes, but the examples you made are hilarous ...if a player "loves to sit in a town" iMHo it would be good that it is stated on his record, other players will be warned, what a lame peep that is....


I just hope you realized what he really meant, and decided to comment on it just to make your point clearer, not to toss.

We have this system in place already, it's called "the honor system". The other safety guard is called "the community".

What will happen when h5 comes out? I don't see how this will work in a large community. Don't compare ebay with heroes please, two different things.

There are so many things that could make "noobs" call you dishonorable/cheater/abuser that it would destroy the community when h5 comes out.

Example:
So I agree to play 2 min turns, but spend more than that in combat. My opponent, however, decides to wait for capitol, and attacks only when his fights are easy and fast. -> he will confuse this with bad play/dishonor/I-am-wasting-his-time. He picks a "bad" line, and is banned from the community - since I'm already a known player, he's unknown.

There are so many more examples like this. It takes time for new players to adapt to the "pro" playstyle. By using a system like Xarfax's we will lose all these new players (And alot of them would adapt if given time!) I'm sure the system would work in the old h3 community, but it could definitely cripple a new one.

Just my 2cp.





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vesuvius
vesuvius

Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
posted April 03, 2006 08:05 AM
Edited by vesuvius on 3 Apr 2006

well, the comments thing is an interesting idea, and can be implemented pretty easily (already there is a comments section, but only I see it) -- I get the feeling the player info page would be too clustered, and the fact that this whole thing is built on a windows based server, it does not leave much more room in processing power.  Right now the database already has over 24,000 members, and I wonder how active homm5 online will be -- the script handling the win, loss, played against trackers are tasked enough, and I can only imagine how big the player rankings tables might become.

Right now I pay over $45,000 in server costs per month(nothing to do with ToH) but the ToH server is on a totally different service (paying $80 or so a month).  If moved it to my high profile servers in New York, I would have infinte space and processing power, plus the fastest speeds on the net.  But the sacrifice is: I'd need the entire programming redone, from a windows based system to a linux based one.  And with a database of 24,000 members and tons of records, the transcription of all this is a nightmare.

So in conclusion, I've been debating on staying with my current server for TOH, getting them to modify the programming for homm5, or having it completely redone.  One would cost me $500, the other over $8000(and weeks of transferring medal records).

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