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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Comments on skill system and suggestions for new 1s
Thread: Comments on skill system and suggestions for new 1s
shassz
shassz


Adventuring Hero
posted July 09, 2006 06:26 PM

Comments on skill system and suggestions for new 1s

The skill system of H4 was a great improvement compared to the 1 in H3. Secondary skills connected to primary skills was a great idea. H5 went further and dropped the secondary skill system for a way more flexible ability system, where you can choose between ability combinations. I think abilities are great because you dont have to advance in them for like 5 levels, you just choose it and you get it.
Though a real weak point of this system is the lack of choices, and thats y I made this topic. I would like to suggest some new skills and abilities and see the ideas of other people.

Some abilities I love and made possible by this new system:

-teleport assault,power of speed ~simply fantastic makes slow tanking creatures great attackers 2
-mark of the wizard ~a whole lot of new ways to use spells
-counterspell ~Stopping any spell effect, and let might decide the battle
-warlock`s luck ~luck for spells.. How could they missed this in previous parts?
-guardian angel, last stand ~fantastic end battle abilities
-soulfire, spirit link ~regenerate manna on battlefield? wow..
-elemental balance ~the countersummon
-marked of the damned, corrupted soil ~dont move pls
-howls ~no more moral bonus for you
-imbueing ~enchanted arrows. Nice!
-stand your ground ~Did you say defense?

Some suggestions about bringing back skills from previous parts:

-Stealth and illusion as a skill. Skill advancement is something similar like it was in H4. Abilities:
   -Illusory movement: Activated map ability. Creates a hero illusion on the map. It can move and it looks like the same from map but it does not have any troops. This can deceive even those who can see you by their stealth ability or by some revealing magic.              
   -Cloner: Hero gets the spell phantom forces and can cast it for half manna and only wasting half of its initiative.
   -Twisted army: This is a magical ability so it costs manna to cast it. On the map and in the Inns at the castles it shows a much larger or smaller army(heros choice and the change is level dependant) than the hero really has. Requires Illusory movement.
   -Cover of darkness: In the tactics phase the hero can select some(level dependantly) creatures who are invisible till their first attack.
   -Deceiver: When the hero casts "twisted army" it can also select how should its creatures and the hero itself look for the viewers(with some restrictions of course). So shooters can look like other shooters. A black dragon can look like a bone dragon. They preserve their look for the battle. Twisted army gets a higher manna cost. Twisted army is required for this ability.

-Bringing back summoning H4/nature magic/summoning 2ndary skill as an ability for summoning magic. Summons some of the factions creatures daily. The tier of the creature is summon magic proficiency dependent and choosable, so you can get daily summons of tier 1 even if you can summon tier 3.

-Diplomacy should be a skill not a part of leadership. Inferno, Necro, and Dungeon heroes could use it well. Abilities
    -Lord of x: Skill available to heroes with unit specialty. The chance that the chosen units will join is the diplomacy chance(10,20,30) + 5%/hero level
     -Conspirator: There is a 10% + 2%/hero level chance that the hero can convince 3%/hero level of nme units not to fight. It costs money to convince them.
     -Noble: The hero knows the exact number of nmes in his field of view. The market exchange rates and artifact shop prices  drops in  castle and on the map as well. Requires Conspirator.
     -King of the hill: The hero has a network of conspirators in the territory. Every known castle can be sabotaged for the right ammount of money thus lowering the creature growth for that week with some percent for money of course. Maximum percentage depends on hero level. Requires Noble.
     -Phantom army: The power of the hero`s army is counted with twisted army taken into account when calculating for surrender chances with neutral creatures. Twisted army and conspirator required.

-Nobility of H4 should be integrated into leadership as an ability or some abilities. My suggestions would be.
    -Favoured unit: Weekly bonus from favoured unit. Hero must be at the castle at the end of the week. Lower tier gives more bonus.
    -Captain: The hero can buy units for a lower price from his faction`s castle. Discount is level dependant. Requires estates.

Some more misc. suggestions:

-Remove dark relevation..
-More special ability only spells and spell combinations. Examples:
  -Cloudsqeezer: Can cast thunderstorm which lasts several turns. Every turn a lightining like the regular lightining spell with stun effect strikes a random nme unit.
  -Sky captain: Thunderstorm`s manna cost gets higher although every 2nd turn a forcefull blow of wind toss a random nme unit away. Requires Cloudsqeezer.
  -Torturer: Can cast nemesis. Lowers the creature`s moral 2 and renders it unable to reitiate. Requires Master of pain.
  -Death`s hand: Can cast Atrophy on a creature. The stack lose 3% of their hps every turn. Requires Torturer.

Post your ideas and/or comments pls

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Klaital
Klaital


Known Hero
posted July 09, 2006 07:02 PM

Why you want to get rid of dark revelation? I love that skill, free level-up is sweet.
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shassz
shassz


Adventuring Hero
posted July 10, 2006 12:29 PM

Quote:
Why you want to get rid of dark revelation? I love that skill, free level-up is sweet.


Cause there are much usefull skills and it robs place from them. Although you get 1-2 free primary skill points, but you also get a higher level cap for next level.

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G3
G3

Tavern Dweller
posted July 10, 2006 02:21 PM

Zombie Lord - Improvement to skeleton archers, raises zombies instead of skeleton archers. 8)

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OOPMan
OOPMan


Adventuring Hero
posted July 10, 2006 02:45 PM

Cloner is a BAAAAAAAD idea. As has been discussed elsewhere, Phantaom Forces should not be encouraged, as it is currently not well balanced...
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted July 10, 2006 03:57 PM

Quote:
The skill system of H4 was a great improvement compared to the 1 in H3. Secondary skills connected to primary skills was a great idea. H5 went further and dropped the secondary skill system for a way more flexible ability system, where you can choose between ability combinations. I think abilities are great because you dont have to advance in them for like 5 levels, you just choose it and you get it.
Though a real weak point of this system is the lack of choices, and thats y I made this topic. I would like to suggest some new skills and abilities and see the ideas of other people.

Some abilities I love and made possible by this new system:

-teleport assault,power of speed ~simply fantastic makes slow tanking creatures great attackers 2
-mark of the wizard ~a whole lot of new ways to use spells
-counterspell ~Stopping any spell effect, and let might decide the battle
-warlock`s luck ~luck for spells.. How could they missed this in previous parts?
-guardian angel, last stand ~fantastic end battle abilities-soulfire, spirit link ~regenerate manna on battlefield? wow..
-elemental balance ~the countersummon
-marked of the damned, corrupted soil ~dont move pls
-howls ~no more moral bonus for you
-imbueing ~enchanted arrows. Nice!
-stand your ground ~Did you say defense?

Some suggestions about bringing back skills from previous parts:

-Stealth and illusion as a skill. Skill advancement is something similar like it was in H4. Abilities:
   -Illusory movement: Activated map ability. Creates a hero illusion on the map. It can move and it looks like the same from map but it does not have any troops. This can deceive even those who can see you by their stealth ability or by some revealing magic.              
   -Cloner: Hero gets the spell phantom forces and can cast it for half manna and only wasting half of its initiative.
   -Twisted army: This is a magical ability so it costs manna to cast it. On the map and in the Inns at the castles it shows a much larger or smaller army(heros choice and the change is level dependant) than the hero really has. Requires Illusory movement.
   -Cover of darkness: In the tactics phase the hero can select some(level dependantly) creatures who are invisible till their first attack.
   -Deceiver: When the hero casts "twisted army" it can also select how should its creatures and the hero itself look for the viewers(with some restrictions of course). So shooters can look like other shooters. A black dragon can look like a bone dragon. They preserve their look for the battle. Twisted army gets a higher manna cost. Twisted army is required for this ability.

-Bringing back summoning H4/nature magic/summoning 2ndary skill as an ability for summoning magic. Summons some of the factions creatures daily. The tier of the creature is summon magic proficiency dependent and choosable, so you can get daily summons of tier 1 even if you can summon tier 3.

-Diplomacy should be a skill not a part of leadership. Inferno, Necro, and Dungeon heroes could use it well. Abilities
    -Lord of x: Skill available to heroes with unit specialty. The chance that the chosen units will join is the diplomacy chance(10,20,30) + 5%/hero level
     -Conspirator: There is a 10% + 2%/hero level chance that the hero can convince 3%/hero level of nme units not to fight. It costs money to convince them.
     -Noble: The hero knows the exact number of nmes in his field of view. The market exchange rates and artifact shop prices  drops in  castle and on the map as well. Requires Conspirator.
     -King of the hill: The hero has a network of conspirators in the territory. Every known castle can be sabotaged for the right ammount of money thus lowering the creature growth for that week with some percent for money of course. Maximum percentage depends on hero level. Requires Noble.
     -Phantom army: The power of the hero`s army is counted with twisted army taken into account when calculating for surrender chances with neutral creatures. Twisted army and conspirator required.

-Nobility of H4 should be integrated into leadership as an ability or some abilities. My suggestions would be.
    -Favoured unit: Weekly bonus from favoured unit. Hero must be at the castle at the end of the week. Lower tier gives more bonus.
    -Captain: The hero can buy units for a lower price from his faction`s castle. Discount is level dependant. Requires estates.

Some more misc. suggestions:

-Remove dark relevation..
-More special ability only spells and spell combinations. Examples:
  -Cloudsqeezer: Can cast thunderstorm which lasts several turns. Every turn a lightining like the regular lightining spell with stun effect strikes a random nme unit.
  -Sky captain: Thunderstorm`s manna cost gets higher although every 2nd turn a forcefull blow of wind toss a random nme unit away. Requires Cloudsqeezer.
  -Torturer: Can cast nemesis. Lowers the creature`s moral 2 and renders it unable to reitiate. Requires Master of pain.
  -Death`s hand: Can cast Atrophy on a creature. The stack lose 3% of their hps every turn. Requires Torturer.

Post your ideas and/or comments pls


Why would you consider the H4 system superior to H1-3?To get grandmaster eg chaos magic you required 12-13 lvls not considering its secondary in which case is sorcery(5 lvls).If you add them all you have little to invest in other skills.No more heroes with 3 magic schools,luck,logistics,archery etc which makes most of your heroes clones.Also all magic prerequisites are the same with a different name(herbalism=spiritualism=occultism) and all heroes start with same skills!?
Stealth was a nice touch but the abilities you propose are unfair-imba.Feel free to play baldur's gate with a wizard for such effects.Summoning wouldn't be bad,however in H4 it was for elementals(too good),woodland creatures.Conjure zombie would sound... Diplomacy can't be removed from leadership lest it would make it even less appealing.And it doesn't utilise the underhanded means you propose,that is not its spirit.Nobility is something I would like to see though not badly.
On your miscelanneous suggestions it would be better to make new spells with these effects since there are already many abilities.After all heroes games are meant to be easy to play but difficult to master.Let's not confuse even more the newcomers.If this line is crossed it's not fun anymore,that's why few enjoy chess
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shassz
shassz


Adventuring Hero
posted July 10, 2006 04:29 PM

Quote:
Cloner is a BAAAAAAAD idea. As has been discussed elsewhere, Phantaom Forces should not be encouraged, as it is currently not well balanced...


Well yea maybe special abilities should be removed from clones..

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shassz
shassz


Adventuring Hero
posted July 10, 2006 05:22 PM

Quote:

Why would you consider the H4 system superior to H1-3?To get grandmaster eg chaos magic you required 12-13 lvls not considering its secondary in which case is sorcery(5 lvls).If you add them all you have little to invest in other skills.



The point is you cant specialize in every skill, so there is a great chance heros differ. As you might see it in H4 you got great bonuses for a grandmaster level not really compareable with those of H3.
For example:
Expert archery  gave you 50% bonus for shooters, expert offense gave 30% meele increse in H3.
In H4 you got 50% for both with grandmaster offense.
You also needed a lot level up or some bonus giving critters to make some advance in 1 area. The basic idea for H4 skill system was grouping skills and in a way "force" players to specialize in them. I think its a great idea cause it makes a big difference between heros unlike H3 where might heroes took "these 6" skills and magic heroes took "those 6". There was not much difference between might heros maybe only the specials. There are a whole lot of other ways to play the H4 system as the above mentioned I just wanted to show that the main point in H4 system(both skill and building) was that the player must make decisions which highly affect the game play. Apperently most ppl didnt like it, though it wasnt balanced either, but I think it was a good idea.

Quote:

No more heroes with 3 magic schools,luck,logistics,archery etc which makes most of your heroes clones.



Well 3 magic school is simply stupid. I rather like specializing in 1 and get some abilities that others dont have. Clones.. H4 heroes was less "clony" than H3 1s.

Quote:

Also all magic prerequisites are the same with a different name(herbalism=spiritualism=occultism) and all heroes start with same skills!?



Yea since noone has 3 magic schools every specialized mages need boost for themselves.

Quote:

Stealth was a nice touch but the abilities you propose are unfair-imba.Feel free to play baldur's gate with a wizard for such effects.



My stealth skill proposal is mainly a multiplayer game skill. Its main purpose was to add a new dimension to the game with deceiving the nme. Actually besides cloner no abilities give any bonuses to your army. They only show a false image of your army. For example:

-With deceiver ability you show a 25 black dragon image of your army and make your nme let you go while you only have 19 griffons.
-A use of twisted army can be a trap. Consider you have a large army and you cast twisted army to show a significantly(20% avrage decrease in creature size and hero capabilities..) smaller which will convince your nme to attack you and have some hard battle.

Quote:

Diplomacy can't be removed from leadership lest it would make it even less appealing.And it doesn't utilise the underhanded means you propose,that is not its spirit.



Leadership as it is in the name is about leading not about negotiating . Leadership should care about how you manage your troops and kingdom so it should have recruitment and resource related bonus abilities I think. For me diplomacy means how you deal with neutral or hostile creatures. Its also about how well you know your area and your neighboors there. I think my ability proposals for diplomacy skill has much in common with the plague tent ability introduced in H5. I mean y  should diplomacy only be used to help our allies if we can harm our nmes too with it. My diplomacy skill`s main purpose is to make the battles a bit more realistic with a conspiracy and respect system. I mean if Youre somekind of lord in your territorry how come creatures dont know you?

Quote:

On your miscelanneous suggestions it would be better to make new spells with these effects since there are already many abilities.After all heroes games are meant to be easy to play but difficult to master.Let's not confuse even more the newcomers.



I want to see more abilities so I dont think widely accessable spells are a good idea. Making an ability the prerequest of a spell makes it more unique enables it to be stronger and you will like it more cause others dont have it. I just love a game till I dont know all the rules. After Im familiar with a system I just want to change it a bit(thats what im trying to do right now), so I think we just do good for the newcomers if we make it a bit more complicated.

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shassz
shassz


Adventuring Hero
posted July 10, 2006 05:23 PM

Quote:
Zombie Lord - Improvement to skeleton archers, raises zombies instead of skeleton archers. 8)



Or zombie archers?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted July 10, 2006 09:06 PM

Obviously I dislike being led dowm a predetermined path so no wonder I believed the H4 system was lacking.The most effective thing to do was (grand)master a skill instead of taking several advanced,expert others(If you could get hypnotise why would you go for other skills?).The only important choice was whether to level up the secondary or just go straight for grandmaster.Ok there was the choice of taking 2 lvls of other skill to change your class but it was a bit random and while cool wasn't really effective.But some of them were great
As for the magic schools yes,I prefer abilities to be a part of them but not at the same time restrict my casting options.I could live without having control of all 4 schools but at least 2 should remain an (accessible) option.Variety is better than the mind numbing specialisation.Suppose you learn all there is to your classes abilities.From then on unless you find spell combos from different schools,you are left to use the same super strategy constantly or crappy variations for a change And as for the 'cloned heroes' issue,H4 was promoting it and allowed little room for creative thinking(that could be effective as well).If you have seen many H3 heroes clones that means little since I know that there are more than a few effective combinations(excluding sorcery,learning etc ofcourse) and I frequently used variations.(I also have seen some who used the same strategy all the time and cannot but feel disgusted-no fun,no semblance of adaptability,no creativity)It depends on the player's way of thinking.
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shassz
shassz


Adventuring Hero
posted July 11, 2006 07:21 AM

I think the main difference between our views that you like if you have access a whole lot of resources(skills, creatures, etc.) at a given time  thus giving you more options in a game. Thats true I agree that it gives greater freedom in 1 game, but the games are very similar to each other if you play 1 nation. In the H4 system you didnt have too much chance to dive into a wide range of skills, but you had the chance to have more specialized heroes which you could combine, so you can actually get back the wide range of skills in a more specialized and variable way. In H3 most might heroes were  very similar but they had a whole lot of choices themselves. In H4 heroes couldnt have that much skills but could specialize in something way more than in H3 and you could combine them. I do think that the second 1 has more potential becouse since in H3 you get hero 'buildings' and mostly you have 1-2 heroes who worth something, in H4 you get hero 'bricks' which from you can build hero combinations, and even split them again if you wish.

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G3
G3

Tavern Dweller
posted July 13, 2006 12:36 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Zombie Lord - Improvement to skeleton archers, raises zombies instead of skeleton archers. 8)



Or zombie archers?
Bah.

I never quite got where in the hell do skeletons suddenly get bows...Raising zombies or even ghosts makes much more sense than raising bows out of dead enemies.
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sphere
sphere


Supreme Hero
posted May 22, 2007 11:07 PM
Edited by sphere at 23:09, 22 May 2007.

Hey,

- Didnt really know where to put this but here it comes. Just a small improvement I would like to see in the ToTE or even in a 2.2.
- What about making some spells ( defensive, mostly ) and some of the skills "invisible" / none detectable to your opponant ?

- MoTN / MoTW / MoTD  ( imbue as to which spell )
- And in the pure spell section : ( just an example ) xx casts haste ... and thats it. You, as opponant don't get to see where or at which creature the other(s) has casted at. Just the fact that your adversary has just hasted something.
- I know that it's utopia, but, if implemented, it would make me a bit more anxious as to what I am  about to attack next. I know it would fill some gaps in the way the AI plays now ( greatly shown by Elvin and Alci here ).

- Can it be done ?


- Guz
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Stella
Stella


Adventuring Hero
Little girl with a BIG sword:)
posted May 22, 2007 11:27 PM
Edited by Stella at 23:28, 22 May 2007.

Quote:
Hey,

- Didnt really know where to put this but here it comes. Just a small improvement I would like to see in the ToTE or even in a 2.2.
- What about making some spells ( defensive, mostly ) and some of the skills "invisible" / none detectable to your opponant ?

- MoTN / MoTW / MoTD  ( imbue as to which spell )
- And in the pure spell section : ( just an example ) xx casts haste ... and thats it. You, as opponant don't get to see where or at which creature the other(s) has casted at. Just the fact that your adversary has just hasted something.
- I know that it's utopia, but, if implemented, it would make me a bit more anxious as to what I am  about to attack next. I know it would fill some gaps in the way the AI plays now ( greatly shown by Elvin and Alci [url=http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=22542]here[/url] ).

- Can it be done ?

- Guz

-
-
-
- Even if I don't see the spell's animation if I look at the creature and IF you know HOMM 5 well you'll quickly find out if any of its stats were boosted or reduced... (especially if there are multiple stacks on the battlefield of the given creature) You only have to memorize the most important stats like damage, init, attack and def. And since nothing urges you to meke your next step in a battle you can check all the creatures freely both enemies and allies... I think it'd only make the combat slower especially player Vs player cause each player would have to check over all the creatures on the battlefield to see which satats were tweaked.
- And before you say, that you shouldn't be able to see the enemy creatures' stats I'd have to say, that IF you can see the debuffs on your creatures just as well as the buffs why couldn't you see that of your enemy?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted May 22, 2007 11:29 PM

If you cannot see your opponent's move then it would become a guessing game However even if you could not see the effect, you could take a look at the units' stats or the change in atb. If you don't know what to counter, a part of the strategy is gone in my opinion.
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sphere
sphere


Supreme Hero
posted May 23, 2007 12:08 AM
Edited by sphere at 00:11, 23 May 2007.

Hey,

- Well to be honest, I was kind of expecting those sorts of replies. I know, I know it's not been fully thought through from my side and again an implementation of this sort would ( in some cases ) make the game into a guessing game, I fully agree. But having read so much about luck and what it does to this sequel of this Homm saga, I just thought it would take out or more correctly, delaythe overwhelming luck some can have from time to time ( yes I mentioned the luck factor ). Okay, forget about the spell "invisibility" for a second. Two armies ( size dosen't matter -- man did I really say that ? ) and one uses MoTN, you are totally blind as to what the opponant did ( besides you now know the MoTN is in play ) that will force you to make an alternative approach in your next move, to actually find out on what creature it has been casted upon. I find the idea most intriging, but thats just me.
- As to spells ( and skills for that matter ) what about the idea that only YOU can see what spells are active (  positive ) on your army ? you could still see the damaging spells/ skills off of your opponants army though. - Would make a room for a whole new skill section that would allow you to see the "whole battlefield status"
Ranger ( insight ) - Wizard ( knowledge ) Inferno - Brute force ability ( like a sort taunting )  ,- up those lines.  Dont get me wrong, I am not about to want to change the game as a whole or even less to take out the strategic element...at all. Just venting a few mometarily ideas.
- And for the " I can just look at the ATB for help ", well my question still stands ; Can it be done ?


- Guz
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted May 23, 2007 12:20 AM

No worries, some brainstorming usually brings out fresh ideas I just am not fond of this particular idea nor would I like the atb or unit stats to lie to me! Maybe it can be done though.
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ismail222
ismail222


Known Hero
The Cataclysm
posted May 23, 2007 05:18 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Zombie Lord - Improvement to skeleton archers, raises zombies instead of skeleton archers. 8)



Or zombie archers?


zombie archersthat would be fun lol...tanking archers xD
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