|
| Thread: Armeggedon spell? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
erccmmo
Tavern Dweller
|
posted July 26, 2006 03:00 AM |
|
|
*crys about how unnecicarilly complicated this all is*
|
|
juventas
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted July 26, 2006 03:38 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Are you serious? Armageddon - and all destructive magic - sucks in late game. If you're fighting a large size army, Armageddon will not help you one bit. But try to use Divine Strength on your legion of Marksmen ...
I keep getting the impression that this only applies to the campaign. I can't ever get a game where a spellpower 27 empowered implosion can't take out most of a stack. The armies simply aren't big enough. It's like I can't break the level 27 barrier without artificially extending the match. Maybe when those extra large maps come out...
____________
|
|
Snap
Hired Hero
|
|
posted July 26, 2006 06:54 AM |
|
|
Pretty useless spell, unless you are a campaign AI hero  I was playing the Necro campaign, mission 3. The generated AI heroes were all pretty high-level, and they all had some high-level spells. When I caught one of the mages inside a castle and he realised that he wasn't getting out of there alive, he started casting Armageddons. He cast 3 of them before I finally managed to kill the last of his troops. Same thing later happened with the Sylvan hero.
So I think they just put it as a suicide spell for the AI.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted July 26, 2006 12:11 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Pretty useless spell, unless you are a campaign AI hero I was playing the Necro campaign, mission 3. The generated AI heroes were all pretty high-level, and they all had some high-level spells. When I caught one of the mages inside a castle and he realised that he wasn't getting out of there alive, he started casting Armageddons. He cast 3 of them before I finally managed to kill the last of his troops. Same thing later happened with the Sylvan hero.
So I think they just put it as a suicide spell for the AI.
Hey armageddon has a history that goes way back.You MUST treat it with the respect it is due.Or else!
Believe me it can save the day!For you too,not just the AI
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted July 26, 2006 12:20 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I keep getting the impression that this only applies to the campaign. I can't ever get a game where a spellpower 27 empowered implosion can't take out most of a stack. The armies simply aren't big enough. It's like I can't break the level 27 barrier without artificially extending the match. Maybe when those extra large maps come out...
Well it may only use 40*sp but there's still empowered spells and the 7
tier creatures are harder and slower to obtain with less Hp than in H3 or even H4.(Titan,black dragon 300hp->190,240 respectively)H4 even had 275hp phoenixes dammit!In a multiplayer/single player map it is doubtful someone will obtain a legion of smth.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted July 26, 2006 03:37 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Are you serious? Armageddon - and all destructive magic - sucks in late game. If you're fighting a large size army, Armageddon will not help you one bit. But try to use Divine Strength on your legion of Marksmen ...
I keep getting the impression that this only applies to the campaign. I can't ever get a game where a spellpower 27 empowered implosion can't take out most of a stack. The armies simply aren't big enough. It's like I can't break the level 27 barrier without artificially extending the match. Maybe when those extra large maps come out...
I mostly play single scenarios. I do play the campaigns, but that's not what interests me in game. And admitted, there are no really large scenarios as yet that will make you have superpower armies ... But hopefully, that will come. My problem with Destructive magic is that Destructive magic becomes proportionally less usefull during the game, and at the same time, it will depend on your spellpower that will be proportionally increasing through game. Thus, when you have most use of Destructive magic, you rarely will have the Spellpower to make it do much of a difference, and once you get a significant spellpower, the armies will probably have grown past the point where it matters anyway. Schools like Light Magic will grow more usefull as your armies grow, and in the same time your caster level will grow, giving you abilities to boost your caster efficiency. Thus, Light Magic and Dark Magic will grow more and more usefull through the game, and in the same time, you'll be an ever improving caster, which makes for me a much more attractive combination.
|
|
juventas
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted July 26, 2006 05:32 PM |
|
|
If you take Enlightenment with your Warlock, your spellpower scales nicely with the armies. Most maps have several Spellpower shrines sitting around as well, so you'll always do enough damage to make a difference. I'm not sure what kind of MP games you're playing, but they must be somewhat longer than mine if Destructive magic becomes useless after a while. In the map Dragon Pass, I was able to get a Spellpower of 36 (after artifacts, of course). With that, an Empowered Implosion could kill 250-270 marksmen. With Emerald Slippers, even more.
But I agree that after a certain point Destruction becomes less useful. The only thing that scales well are the masteries, and they don't affect quite as many units as the Light and Dark masteries (unless you use Armageddon, which will halve your own troops' defense as well). In order to scale the spells better with armies, the masteries should be more powerful. Ice should reduce initiative by even more than .3, lightning should work on all four units that get hit (chain lightning is a weak enough spell). Fire is pretty good as it is.
____________
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted July 26, 2006 07:48 PM |
|
|
I don't think mastering should be more powerfull than they are ... But something else could be done to make Destructive magic remain usefull - or more usefull. The abilities could add also some kind of sorcery like ability - that you use less initiative on casting spells of that class. This could stack with Sorcery to make you a very quick caster.
By the way, what you write pretty much emphasizes my point. Of course it's no bad thing to take out 250 Marksmen with an implosion, but in late game, a Mass Haste or Mass Slow is probably gonna benefit you more - at least you your opponent hasn't got Light Magic and hasn't got access to Expert Cleansing.
|
|
juventas
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted July 27, 2006 12:37 AM |
|
|
Well, my point isn't that Destructive is useful when you're facing a legion of marksmen. My point is that it rarely ever gets to those kind of numbers, even in the typical late game. It will be difficult to balance Destructive to large-army applications since many of the adjustments will make Destruction way too powerful for short games.
Think about this:
Small army: Both Dark/Light and Destruction are similarly effective. Destruction may be better if you have high Spellpower.
Large army: Buffing and debuffing reigns supreme. 1000 damage doesn't do much to 500 units. Mass Slow affects 7 units for up to 40%. Master of Ice reduces initiative by 30 points for up to 2 units.
If you try to balance for large armies, as per your suggestion, you can cast Master of Ice more times, and affect more units at a time. This will make Destruction more equal to Mass Slow because you can affect almost as many units. However, with small army maps, you can suddenly wipe out entire stacks more often. This makes it much better than Mass Slow when armies are small.
____________
|
|
Thanatos
Known Hero
|
|
posted July 29, 2006 05:19 PM |
|
Edited by Thanatos at 17:21, 29 Jul 2006.
|
Quote:
Light magic and Defense my lil' brother.
Inferno and Sylvan heroes can learn Fire Protection (50%), and with Protection (15%) you will have 65% reduction of fire damage, sounds good huh ?
But the spell system is a big mess, Rangers don't have any spell power and can not imbue ballista with it. Demon Lords are not friendly with Light Magic.
True, but that's not the main point with using Armageddon with Sylvan... it's Master of Fire. Fire Resistance also renders you immune to the Master of Fire effect so if you cast Armageddon with MoF you'll have a huge advantage for a short time as your opponents' entire armies' defense will be greatly crippled while yours is not. Your own units won't take all that much damage because of Sylvan's low spell power and Fire Resistance. Just make sure you do as much damage as possible before the MoF effect wears off. I never tried it so I don't know how effective it's going to be but I think it can be pretty effective with big armies... any comments? 
|
|
rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
|
|
posted July 29, 2006 07:03 PM |
|
|
How long does the Master of Fire effect last anyway?
____________
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 29, 2006 09:15 PM |
|
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted July 30, 2006 12:05 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Well, my point isn't that Destructive is useful when you're facing a legion of marksmen. My point is that it rarely ever gets to those kind of numbers, even in the typical late game.
That's only because there are only the crappy factory made maps and no map-editor and only those rediculously small map-sizes as yet.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted July 30, 2006 01:18 AM |
|
|
You DO have a point
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
|
|
posted July 30, 2006 08:11 AM |
|
|
Quote:
1 turn..
Of a hero, or of a unit?
____________
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 30, 2006 08:54 AM |
|
|
|
I think a hero.. but I may be wrong
|
|
rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
|
|
posted July 30, 2006 11:14 AM |
|
|
If it is a hero, than it's not bad.
____________
|
|
TemjinGold
Known Hero
|
|
posted July 30, 2006 03:02 PM |
|
|
Can anyone confirm that this doesn't work with the empowered version as one poster mentioned?
____________
|
|
Izzachar
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted July 31, 2006 01:33 AM |
|
Edited by Izzachar at 01:49, 31 Jul 2006.
|
Its 1 turn just as it says
So if you hero hasnt got sorcery it will last untill your heros next turn.
And yes its awesome. The master of fire ability alone is IMO a reason for choosing destructive magic with inferno. -50% defence along with attack skill + hellfire and cerebri and nightmares. You easy deal double damage to all lv 7 creatures and against haven and sylvian it lets you deal even more damage extra.
Since it lowers defence by 50% it means that an archangel with 31 in defence and a haven hero at lv 20 wich gives it about 10 extra defence. Would get a decrease in defence by 20. Lets say your nightmates attack them they have 18 attack (and lets say +10 from hero) thats 28.
Normally they would deal 41-28 = 13 difference in defence vs attack. = 39.4% damage reduction.
Now they deal. 41 * 0.5 = 20. 28 - 20 = 8 difference in attack vs defence. wich is an increase in damage by 40%.
so an attack for 100 damage that originally would deal 60 damage now deals 140 damage. Thats more then a 100% increase. about 130% more damage. And this goes for all creatures that attacks that creature even the ballista.
Now its not only angles that suffer from this paladins, treants and other high def creatures suffer from it alot. And all creatures off haven and sylvian hero will suffer greatly from this. Sylvian is lucky to have fire resistant ability.
Creatures with lower defence still get affected but nut as much a squire with that same haven hero would have an increase of damage at 50%.
Sorry for all grammar and spelling erros. was tired when posting this.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 31, 2006 08:34 AM |
|
|
yes, it is a good way to increase your damage, BUT you can i.e. cast frenzy in the turn you'd "waste" for fireball to achieve better effects, or maybe cast mass confusion, which will increase the power of your units in the long run. Puppet master totally pwnz heroes without cleansing (and it's not certain that it will be in the guild ~~) and units that cast cleansing (unfortunately, inferno is one of those towns that has no cleansing caster, and it's the biggest weakness of inferno afaik ;X)
I'd pick dark over destructive except when playing undead
|
|
|
|
