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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Resource costs REALLY changed in 1.3
Thread: Resource costs REALLY changed in 1.3 This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Fofa
Fofa


Famous Hero
Famous? Me?!
posted September 16, 2006 06:12 AM

O.O Ai ai yi!!!! Look at those changes! Things are more expensive now. . .

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 16, 2006 11:00 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 14:03, 16 Sep 2006.

Just read the charts and all I can say is that I am greatly disappointed.. because they lowered the gold costs, yes, but they raised the need for resources WAY too much!

Inferno: Cerberi dwelling costs WAY to much wood. No longer you can go for blazing stables early, because it takes too much resources. Hall of sins is too costly!!!! You can get devils, yes, but archs are still pretty much impossible to get. VERY bad changes, that will greatly block inferno's development, leaving all to abusing deleb because all you can get is level 2 dwelling, pathetic..

Dungeon: Now it's totally impossible to get the dragons, so forget about them. 15 sulfur 15 crystal? Where am I supposed to get that when piles are smaller in h5? (2-3 resource per pile? lol -_-). Ridiculous sulfur costs of shadow matriarchs' dwelling doesn't really help.

Academy: You still need tons of gems, and getting raksasha dwelling has been made very hard to get, leaving you with almost nothing but those pathetic colossi. Aww. What's the main tank unit now, djinn?

In other words: 1.3 brought us even worse balance when it comes to dwelling costs! You'll be lucky to get, say, raksasha rajas in 4th week, while haven will already have 250 marksmen! gogo defeat 250 marksmen with 2 raksashas lol

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Elvin
Elvin


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Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 16, 2006 12:54 PM
Edited by Elvin at 13:45, 16 Sep 2006.

@Doomforge:My thoughts exactly.Necropolis however seems fine apart from the bone dragon and its horde dwelling.Within firstst week it's certain you'll have built vampire dwelling,zombies and skellie archers ready for conquest at the beginning of the second.It is also easy to upg vampires 1st day for better results as the resourses won't be missed by other dwellings.The only dwelling you may have to skip for a while is ghosts as you cannot know for sure if you'll get the 10 mercury for wights.If you do it is essential that you build them right away(ghost 16 hp,2-4 dam-spectre 19 hp,4-6 dam!) as they can now be terryifying.Liches you'll get 2nd to 3rd week which is normal.Unfortunately if you plan on upg creatures the dragons will never come into play.Even with resourse silo and a mercury mine they are just too expensive and in this regard dragon tombstone is a joke(+10 merc).Not taking into account upg them or even buying them.
What strikes me as weird as of 1.3 is that while cheap tier 7 dwellings are even less accessible due to resource costs.Not all but still...At the same time tier 6 needs a lot of resourses some needing 10 of a rare resource which means if your opponent gets the right mine or is lucky with a windmill and you don't you are at a serious disadvantage.Against AI you are royally screwed because you'll still face upg tier 7 before you even build unupgraded ones most of the time.Apparently Nival's people haven't played previous homm... Different resourse demands are good but not to this extent-they'd better change a few things.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 16, 2006 01:12 PM

Quote:
By the way, what do the four numbers on the bottom line of each table indicate? I looked at it before, but I can't seem to figure out what they represent.


The numbers are from left to right: Total cost of Gold + Wood/Ore + Precious Resources / Gold Cost / Wood + Ore consumption / Precious Resources. Gold Cost is calculated as total gold divided by 500, Wood Ore is Wood + Ore / 2, and Precious Resources is Crystal + Gems + Mercury + Sulfur. This is how they compared building costs at AOH for Heroes 3, and I just addapted this was of calculating total cost.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 16, 2006 02:06 PM
Edited by Maurice at 14:06, 16 Sep 2006.

I've made a detailed overview for myself on the cost for the various factions to build up their town to maximum level. I will just list the totals here; these are the costs to upgrade the town from level 1 all the way up to maximum level, including every and all buildings.

The displayed numbers are as follows: Wood, Ore, Mercury, Crystal, Sulfur, Gems, Gold.

HAVEN: 185 - 170 - 26 - 41 - 26 - 36 - 123,400
Common: 355, rare: 129

ACADEMY: 121 - 146 - 34 - 29 - 39 - 59 - 130,900
Common: 267, rare: 161

SYLVAN: 210 - 95 - 21 - 73 - 21 - 77 - 105,500
Common: 305, rare: 189

INFERNO: 145 - 110 - 66 - 26 - 78 - 26 - 112,800
Common: 255, rare: 196

NECROPOLIS: 190 - 180 - 105 - 34 - 39 - 29 - 99,000
Common: 370, rare: 207

DUNGEON: 130 - 120 - 22 - 75 - 77 - 18 - 113,800
Common: 250, rare: 192

A few things to note:
- Most mage guilds require respectively 0, 1, 2, 3 and 5 rare resources each per level; Dungeon deviates from this with a 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 scheme and Necropolis still has the old scheme of 0, 1, 3, 5, 10. I wonder if they simply forgot to change the Necropolis mage guilds?
- Sylvan has 2 more buildings than other towns, Dungeon has 1 more building;
- Haven's need of rare resources is extremely low, compared with other towns, while needing a lot of money. The difference doesn't seem to warrant such a gap, however;
- Necropolis has a great need of Wood and Ore, while also being at the top of the Rare resource needs. To counter this, they need much less gold to build up fully. If the Mage Guild costs were reduced as the other factions, they would need 32 Rare resources less, which would be much better in line, I'd say.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
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What if Elvin was female?
posted September 16, 2006 02:40 PM
Edited by Elvin at 14:43, 16 Sep 2006.

Quote:


A few things to note:
- Most mage guilds require respectively 0, 1, 2, 3 and 5 rare resources each per level; Dungeon deviates from this with a 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 scheme and Necropolis still has the old scheme of 0, 1, 3, 5, 10. I wonder if they simply forgot to change the Necropolis mage guilds?
- Haven's need of rare resources is extremely low, compared with other towns, while needing a lot of money. The difference doesn't seem to warrant such a gap, however;
- Necropolis has a great need of Wood and Ore, while also being at the top of the Rare resource needs. To counter this, they need much less gold to build up fully. If the Mage Guild costs were reduced as the other factions, they would need 32 Rare resources less, which would be much better in line, I'd say.


Since dungeon has different costs than other towns it may well be that necro was not changed in purpose.I'll explain myself:Necro can rush with skellie archers and vamp lords,has buffed ghosts,can build liches easily and even if unlucky you can still get wights with resource silo.Now if necros can attack early with such a full army AND be in possesion of say berserk it would be...serious trouble.After all necros with mass curses can do pretty well with mage guild 1-3.If you go destructive you can still get icebolt/circle of winter for cold death and summoners can do fine with phantom forces,raise dead,wasp swarm and the mine spell.Not sure if it is warranted but it could be a reason.Unless their sloppy instincts kicked in ofcourse
A lot of money?Less as of 1.3 and in hard you already have 10 sulfur for hall of heroes and training.But they are prevented from upg mage guild quickly.Adding even these few resources is a good step and training costs may not even be the same,I'll let you know when I play haven.
Actually necros don't really need resourse demands lessened,just a reduction in mercury.A generous one if possible
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 16, 2006 06:49 PM

I have updated tables on previous page with full 1.3 details. Some problems are actually better now - Academy ore problem is less severe - while others are even worse - not only has Necropolis Mercury demands gone up from 83 from my old plans to 88 (!), but also Wood and Ore have increased to a staggering 100+ each! And if the Mage Guild thing is on purpose, it seems they've tried to strangle Necropolis by insane resource demands rather than by nerfing the skeletons and necromancy percentages - making skeletons even more important than previously. What can I say? Well ... not the path I'd chosen.

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Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted September 17, 2006 12:18 AM
Edited by Elvin at 00:19, 17 Sep 2006.

Quote:

A lot of money?Less as of 1.3 and in hard you already have 10 sulfur for hall of heroes and training.But they are prevented from upg mage guild quickly.Adding even these few resources is a good step and training costs may not even be the same,I'll let you know when I play haven.



Seems I was wrong.It's not the sulfur cost but the overall wood and ore needed to build up to tier 6 and castle.It really forces you to delay building training facilities while the costs for training remains the same.That is 44 peasants/24 archers for around 6500,20 footmen for 39000(!),6 priests for 25200 What I notice is that with hall of heroes and exp trainer,training a week of priests is about the double of what you'd pay for a week of angels which is not so bad.If you can wait that long with no xtra marksmen or angels that is.
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Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted September 17, 2006 01:29 AM

Next to my testing were the elves.At first with pixies,blade dancers and hunters I thought that sylvan was pretty ****ed up at 5,10,15 wood respectively.But it is well structured:Rangers get easily luck,def->vitality,deadeye shot and get to build druids starting their 2nd week with 2 ranged,a walker and a flyer.One of the main differences with 1.2 is that you cannot upg hunters on 1st day,2nd week so you have to go for unicorns,treants,citadel,blooming grove(which is better to build in 1st week anyway).Actually you can't upg anything(without facing the consequences) so you try to get lvl 15 for the capitol.Treants will probably be built in week 3 unless you prefer them to citadel and to add lvls to the city you'll have to either go marketplace->resourse silo(recommended for getting to greenies early-can spare the money since sylval buildings are cheap) or avenger's guild->av brotherhood(if you are to face a rush).If you upg something you won't be able to build dwellings or castle fast.Treant saplings for 10 wood will have to wait for a while too.Even on hard you may not be able to build every day due to wood shortage so if you can somehow get resourcefulness before getting the wood mine you may want to risk it.
So far it seems that tier 6 usually make it to week 3 so you'll have probably built capitol by the time you get them.Treants will be built eventually but others may face some problems...
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alcibiades
alcibiades


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Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 17, 2006 10:48 AM

Yeah, Wood costs for Sylvan are incredibly high. I think it's overall fair to have high starting prices for Pixie, Blade Dancer and Hunter Buildings, and it balances well because the Druid building only requires Ore - but I think the upgrade prices are a bit too high. As you say, you can only upgrade after a fair amount of time, and that's gonna give you a problem with some units. Especially the upgrade of the Blade Dancers at 15 wood seems way overpriced.

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Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted September 17, 2006 01:23 PM

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!Nival confirmed once again that she loves haven and HATES academy!Haven has a pretty easy start so why not give it a buff?Let's give retaliation strike permanent duration!!And they did.Normally I would love to see this useless feature gain something but at the same time they reduced the number of marks of the wizard to one at a time.Why?Does academy need to be even more nerfed because it wasn't weak enough to reach a laughable level?What is next a reduction in the titan's call lightning?
Infenno on the other hand got the good part of the deal with mark of the damned Easy to use,easy to improve through abilities and working for permanent duration?
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Shauku83
Shauku83


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Famous Hero
posted September 17, 2006 07:23 PM
Edited by Shauku83 at 19:25, 17 Sep 2006.

Alci, great charts. Helps a lot in planning your building order. A few corrections that I noticed, hope I remember correctly.
The Lich upgrade costs 3 of each resource, not 5.
Druid and its upgrade are both 10 ore instead of 15.

Also waiting for your renewed commentations, as the ones below the charts arn't up to date. (unless you still think the same way)

As for your Necromancers comment, I agree. The changes seem to improve the position of the Skelli Archers as the main force. However, the upgrade of the Ghosts is good.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted September 17, 2006 07:34 PM

Quote:
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!Nival confirmed once again that she loves haven and HATES academy!Haven has a pretty easy start so why not give it a buff?Let's give retaliation strike permanent duration!!And they did.Normally I would love to see this useless feature gain something but at the same time they reduced the number of marks of the wizard to one at a time.Why?Does academy need to be even more nerfed because it wasn't weak enough to reach a laughable level?What is next a reduction in the titan's call lightning?
Infenno on the other hand got the good part of the deal with mark of the damned Easy to use,easy to improve through abilities and working for permanent duration?


lol!

you must be joking ;p


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Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted September 17, 2006 07:37 PM

Quote:

lol!

you must be joking ;p




*sigh* I wish I was.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted September 17, 2006 08:42 PM

Actually, this is a great buff @ inferno.  Mark of the damned is much stronger than retal strike and with excruciating strike it is even more nasty. Good, may add some creeping power aswell.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 17, 2006 10:06 PM

Quote:
Alci, great charts. Helps a lot in planning your building order. A few corrections that I noticed, hope I remember correctly.
The Lich upgrade costs 3 of each resource, not 5.
Druid and its upgrade are both 10 ore instead of 15.

Also waiting for your renewed commentations, as the ones below the charts arn't up to date. (unless you still think the same way)

As for your Necromancers comment, I agree. The changes seem to improve the position of the Skelli Archers as the main force. However, the upgrade of the Ghosts is good.


You are right, I have fixed those things. Seems I either made a mistake when reading off AOH or they have changed the info since. Thanx for the notes. Also, can throw in a few comments as off vers. 1.3.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


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of Gold Dragons
posted September 18, 2006 11:25 AM

I also made this chart showing the total cost and distribution for each faction.



To give them credit, if you look at the overall cost (which is Gold/500 + Wood/2 + Ore/2 + Crystal + Gems + Mercury + Sulfur), it's actually very ballanced between the factions - even impressively so. So let's at least give them credit where credit is due. Bad thing is, that ballancing within some factions is very poor - most specifically so for the Necromancers.

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Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted September 18, 2006 12:14 PM

Good jod Alcibiades!
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chpr
chpr


Adventuring Hero
posted September 19, 2006 12:22 AM

guys these nival are the bigges idiots ever... 20 mercury for the bones dwelling! OMFG! OMFG! What is the logic? Bones are crappy, so lets make them impossible to get ?!? (20 wood and 20 ore not to be underestimated too) one big THANKS Nival for your idiocy!

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted September 19, 2006 08:22 PM

You know, what's worse, inferno got incredibly nerfed.. every building and upgrade requires 4-5 sulfur now LMAO! You need a silo and two sulfur deposits to get ONLY cerberi, nightmares, succubi mistresses and devils.. not mentioning ridiculous need for mercury. Sigh.
All we inferno players can do now is take deleb every time (she still rocks, even though the nerf) because you can't get nightmares early anymore, and skip one of the priceless units, probably cerberi, because its impossible to get all of them in time! Terrible. Ah yes, you'll never get arch devils And, you can forget about pitfiends/lords. Aww.

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