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| Thread: A solution to the Training problem? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 28, 2006 11:51 PM |
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A solution to the Training problem?
Well, there's been lots of talk about Haven being seriously overpowered because of the Training ability, which lets you train your Peasants into Marksmen. Since Marksmen are pretty powerfull (Bless them, and you have a level 2 unit doing 8 points of ranged damage) and you can obtain a weekly growth of 68 in this way, there's a problem. A way to change the Training skill that would make sense within the boundaries of the game occurred to me, and it goes like this:
The Nature Of Training
Trainig should be changed, so that instead of training your units AFTER you buy them, you train them BEFORE you buy them. Effectively, what you do with Training is to modify weekly growth rather than to change units.
This makes good sense, because you can consider the new units available at Day 1 as those enlisted and schooled during the former week. With Training, you simply train some of these new recruits into better units.
Limits To Training
The Training Skill would need a new description and way to work. It could go something like this:
Training: Allows you to train Human units as Peasant > Archer > Footman > Priest > Cavalier. By Training, you change the weekly growth by moving units on a 1-by-1 basis from one level to the next.
Basic: Hero can maximally Train 10 % of Weekly Growth or 100 XP + 5 % per Hero level of units. The XP refer to the Experience Value of the unit type that the unit becomes after upgrade.
Advanced: Hero can maximally Train 20 % of Weekly Growth or 150 XP + 5 % per Hero level of units.
Expert: Hero can maximally Train 30 % of Weekly Growth or 200 XP + 5 % per Hero level of units.
Ultimate: Hero can maximally Train 40 % of Weekly Growth or 250 XP + 5 % per Hero level of units.
Example:
Consider a level 20 Knight with Expert Training. This Hero can train up to 30 % of Growth, but only 400 XP points worth of units (200 XP + 20 x 5 % x 200 XP = 400 XP).
Weekly growth is: 44 Peasants / 24 Archers / 20 Squires / 6 Priests / 4 Cavalier.
Let's say the Player wants to maximize his Marksmen. The Hero can train 30 % of Growth, which corresponds to 0.3 * 44 = 13 Peasants. Since the Archer has an XP value of 12, this corresponds to 156 XP, which is well within his the Hero's capability.
Next, the Hero wants to train Squires into Priests. His maximum number yields 0.3 * 20 = 6 Squires, and since the XP value of the Priest is 70, this corresponds to an XP value of 420 XP. However, the Hero only has 244 XP left of his 400 XP limit, and this only allows him to train 3 Squires into Priests.
Thus, the new Weekly growth would be: 31 Peasants / 37 Archers / 17 Squires / 9 Priests / 4 Cavalier.
Other Factors
One could include other factors to modify this, such as:
- Cost: Could put fee for each trained unit depending on level.
- Hall Of Heroes: Increase Training XP limit by 50 %.
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This is only a suggestion and work in progress, but when this thought occured to me, I found it very exciting. I deffinitely think it would work - it would still be a healthy boost of the Haven army, but would be much more controllable than the current system - for instance, you will not have the option to train a large group of Peasants that joined your army from neutrals, and Peasant Huts surrounding your town will not meen virtually boundless supplies of Marksmen.
All comments are very welcome.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 29, 2006 12:42 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 00:49, 29 Oct 2006.
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Nice one! I had thought myself that numbers were the problem but hadn't thought of tying it to counterstrike ability.That should reduce the training menace and I can't see why it wouldn't work.The only thing that can be debated is the percentage of troops trained.For now with money being the only obstacle to training all 44 peasants into 44 archers there is the chance that under the right circumstances(and lots of gold ) haven beats everything.That should not even be a remote possibility and a cap is needed.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted October 29, 2006 10:33 AM |
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Not bad on paper. Dunno how it would work in practice, though.
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TemjinGold
Known Hero
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posted October 29, 2006 12:56 PM |
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Would that be per castle? Per hero? It's definitely a good start but I can see how a small string of low level heroes could circumvent the restriction...
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted October 29, 2006 12:59 PM |
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Now you only have to convince Ubisoft to implement these changes, and release as free patch instead of commercial expansion pack. Or mod it yourself, and convince large percentage of players to use this and not other training-fixed mod. Whichever you think is easier.
Thank gods my Dominions3 copy is en-route. I played Homm serries since Homm1, but it's dead as far as I'm concerned.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 29, 2006 02:15 PM |
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Quote:
Would that be per castle? Per hero? It's definitely a good start but I can see how a small string of low level heroes could circumvent the restriction...
That's a good point. To make it work, there should only be one Hero abile to train in each castle, and that would mean that you had to tie the Hero to the Castle, just like the Nobility skill of Heroes IV. Which I think is a fine solution - in that way, your Hero can only work as "trainer" in one town. Of course, since the Hero is not needed to be present (otherwise, the skill would be useless), one Hero could be training in several towns, but the 1 Town / Hero might be another usefull restrictor. Otherwise, one could also just say that you applied the bonus from your highest level Hero only, if the other solution would be too restrictive.
Unfortunately, I don't think there's any way to MOD it. If this should be implemented, we would have to make Ubisoft buy this idea and implement it in a Patch or Upgrade.
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 29, 2006 02:44 PM |
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I don't like the idea of only one hero being able to train. It makes the racial a thing to avoid for other heroes and the ability Expert Trainer completely useless. Which is a prerequisite for abilities such as Retribution, Death March, Fiery Wrath and Elemental Balance.
Training must be changed, but there isn't room for too drastic a change.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 29, 2006 03:19 PM |
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Well, I don't think this is too drastic. Actually, I think this is a very good way to get Training down to a reasonable level. Of course, that's just my 5 cents.
And I've just tried some numbers here, which I think could be a start. The exact numbers to make it ballance properly should be tested. And the Expert Trainer skill would have to be changed accordingly, which shouldn't be any problem. If training costs money besides unit cost, Expert Training would still make sense, or you could change it to provide a bonus to the Level Count of the Hero with respect to Training, for instance.
And the thing about only one Hero being able to Train - well, the Hero doesn't have to be in the Town. In this case, I just said that you could either say that a) All towns use statistics of Hero with best Training capability, or b) Each Hero is tied to one town only. If you have several Haven towns, you'd need several Heroes with Training ability in order to train in all of them. That is the Heros 4 Nobility model. Of course, the latter is the more restrictive model, as you would need to level up several Heroes to get full benefit of the skill. However, there was never talk about only one Hero being able to train.
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TemjinGold
Known Hero
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posted October 29, 2006 04:44 PM |
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Restrict too much and you turn a broken ability into one that sucks.
Since only the Peasant -> Archer upgrade is broken, why not just change the cost for that? Make it cost 1 random resource per 5 archers trained (if you train fewer than 5, it still costs that 1 random resource). Expert Trainer lowers that to 1 per 7 trained (and/or let's you pick which resource(s)) and combined with Hall of Heroes it's 1 per 10 trained (just throwing out numbers here). Peasant to Archer would not cost ANY gold. As long as it doesn't cost gold, it should solve the problem nicely (by the time you can effectively make use of the market for this to not be a problem, there would be plenty of time to counter Haven).
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted October 29, 2006 05:38 PM |
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No.
Haven isn't based on resources so they would just spend them on training and it wouldn't balance anything. It would still be overpowered as hell.
As I wrote many times before, the ability to train archers from peasants should be totally disabled.
raising the costs would only help on small or sterile maps. Haven would still rule on larger/richier ones.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 29, 2006 06:11 PM |
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I don't think cost is the solution here. Ressources is not a master parameter that is the same on all maps, but will change depending on the nature of the map, just as Doomforge says. If someone is silly and makes a map with 20 Goldmines for each town (and there will be, we know that), Haven will be out of control. I think something is needed to regulate this and actually lower resource cost - heck, most players actually skip Angels to train Peasants instead, and that's not the idea with the game!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 29, 2006 07:51 PM |
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Still haven can clear a dragon utopia in a month's time to get the money while other factions can't without suffering casualties.Cost should not be the solution.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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PhoenixReborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted October 30, 2006 09:20 PM |
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I'd like to do away with training all together and come up with a different special. They've already got something going on with retaliation that is similar to necromancy in that the percentage raises 5% with each level of the skill...Couldn't they expand on that somehow?
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 30, 2006 09:40 PM |
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I don't think there's anything wrong with Training as such, it just needs the right tweeking. But if you want some input, I can give you this: I once made this for a Dwarven town, but since they've obviously moved in a different direction with their Dwarven town, and Haven is a very deffensive town, some of this could be very applicable on Haven:
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TemjinGold
Known Hero
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posted October 31, 2006 04:23 AM |
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OMG... Imp. Griffins would be immortal... (unlimited retal + doublestrike + lucky retal + etc...) 
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Ambidext
Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
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posted October 31, 2006 05:13 AM |
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I don't think there's a real need to tie one hero to one castle, only enabling one trainer. To recruit more heroes, you'll need more gold already. As pointed, spending additional 3k on a hero just to get 13 additional Marksmen a week is totally unwise. The 3k + additional gold required to train the Marksmen can be used to recruit higher tier creatures. You'll rather get 13 Marksmen than 2 Cavaliers and a few Imperial Griphons? I don't think so. During end game, it's possible to train ALL your Peasants into Marksmen and still recruit all other creatures. But by the time you have such power, if facing an equally skilled player, they'll have a large army as well.
I think what needs to be nerfed is the Marksmen's damage. 2-8 is too much for a tier 2. Especially when it's ranged. 4-5 will be nice. Of course, they should further increase the financial cost of training too.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 31, 2006 08:40 AM |
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Well, 3K for another Hero is a drop of water in the long run. There should still be a limit to make only one Hero's training skill apply to each town. Whether it be one Hero to count for all your towns, or just only one Town per Hero is secondary. But I still think Training could come out nicely in this way.
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hellwitch
Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
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posted October 31, 2006 01:03 PM |
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It could be more simple :
A hero will gain points for training like heroes get exp but when you train this points go down. If the hero have 0pt hero can't train. The maximizing of the training will be made from the cost of training point.
it will work as this:
1 lvl - 0 points.
getting 2 lvl - 2 pt i.e can train 2 peasants to archer(or 1 arch to footman)
getting 3 lvl - +2 pt
getting 4 lvl - +3 pt
....
Numbers can be modified for balance.
Other things will be like they are now with the Training skill. The hero will be limited on max number of trained units from its level.(i.e. this training points)
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hellwitch
Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
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posted October 31, 2006 01:09 PM |
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Other suggestion:
training will drain the hero movement, because time could need for training.Plus the restriction: only hero over 10 lvl can train.
And you will need to stay in the town (and spend your main hero time) for about 5 days to train 100 archers.Numbers again are a mather of balance.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 31, 2006 04:47 PM |
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Quote:
Other suggestion:
training will drain the hero movement, because time could need for training.Plus the restriction: only hero over 10 lvl can train.
And you will need to stay in the town (and spend your main hero time) for about 5 days to train 100 archers.Numbers again are a mather of balance.
Well, I think that would be very disrupting for Gameplay. It wouldn't be very fun to use Training, if you had to wait 5 days in town each time you wanted to use it.
The Point system could work, except for the problem with the level Cap (the XP boundary around level 30 means that you're very unlikely to get past this level). This means, that in a long game, at some point you've used your quota, and then the Skill is useless, which wont do.
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