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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Death tactics
Thread: Death tactics
Fortress_fan
Fortress_fan

Disgraceful

posted December 25, 2006 09:07 AM

Death tactics

General tactics: (Usually playing on Expert difficulty)

On day one I usually recruit a thief to explore the region. I use the fist week to concentrate on my necromancer hero (it should at least be on level 4 at day 8). Lords is not to hire, but a Death knight is more important to support my necromancer hero with tactics (OFFENCE!). I also usually send out imps to take minor treasures around the map and leave weak and slow skeletons in garrison.

Choices:

On level 2 I usually take the Cerberus. They are an above-average level 2 creature which does petty high damage (16x3). Ghosts are not bad but they are to fragile and weak and they have lower hit points (only 15) than the cerberi (24) which means that the 7 cerberi have 33 hit points more on a population than 9 ghosts (basic population). That means 330, 660 and even 1320 hit points in the long run. The ghost has also more defensive and therefore weaker specials (insubstantiality and aging attack occurring sometimes vs. cerberies no retaliation and three-headed attack).
I recommend all players to take cerberi instead of ghosts.


On level 3 it is a clear choice for me: Venom spawn. The spawn has massive 100 hit points (vampires have only 75 which is petty low), a poisoning ranged attack and 16-24 damage (vs. weak vampires 12-18). On top of that, the spawn is the only ranged attacker in Necropolis, and the best third level shooter (very close between it and the Cyclopes). Vampires can be animated through necromancy anyway (which is very weird, vampires bite humans to make them become vampires, they aren't animated), if you would want them for some reason. Overall, Vampires are decent creatures, above-average, but they pale when compared with the venoms spawn. The only wrong thing with the Venom spawn is that they fit better in Asylum, Nightmares should be level 3 Death, they are demons.


I am not longer so sure of the devils superiority over the bone dragons. I just played through the von Tarkin campaign and Bone dragons (why are the Kreegan dwellings disabled except imps?) saved me on some difficult battles (mostly the final battle of Rylos). But I take Devils anyway they are perfect hero-killers (Teleport, Life Ward, superior attack).

Building order:
Day 1: Kennels
Day 2: Spawning pit if Tower of Darkness 1 are pre-built (otherwise I build it)
Day 3: Chaos Annex
Day 4: Temple of the Damned
Day 5: Tower of Darkness 2 (mostly)

Anyway, what’s your strategy with the necropolis?

____________

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tenzor
tenzor


Adventuring Hero
posted December 27, 2006 12:20 PM

Quote:
General tactics: (Usually playing on Expert difficulty)

On level 3 it is a clear choice for me: Venom spawn. The spawn has massive 100 hit points (vampires have only 75 which is petty low), a poisoning ranged attack and 16-24 damage (vs. weak vampires 12-18). On top of that, the spawn is the only ranged attacker in Necropolis, and the best third level shooter (very close between it and the Cyclopes). Vampires can be animated through necromancy anyway (which is very weird, vampires bite humans to make them become vampires, they aren't animated), if you would want them for some reason. Overall, Vampires are decent creatures, above-average, but they pale when compared with the venoms spawn. The only wrong thing with the Venom spawn is that they fit better in Asylum, Nightmares should be level 3 Death, they are demons.




OMG, why are you ever comparing only damage or hitpoints? As you may know, damage is multiplied by attack in HOMM IV so 'weak' creature with dam 1-2 and attack 50 will inflict more damage than creature with dam 10-15 and attack 5. Also hitpoints cannot be compared without defense so easily (with exception of checking unit's capability of surviving attack spells), inflicted damage is divided by defense of attacked unit.
Try to compare attack and defense coefficients (attack * damage, defense * hitpoints) of best lev3 units:
Attack:
1. venom spawn - 520
2.-3. vampire, cyclops - 450
On short range, attack coef. of venom spawn is only 260, of course. Cyclops would be real winners here in case of succesful area attack (more than 2 units partially hit), but 'weak' vampires are still 3rd best attackers of all 3lev units.
Defense:
1. venom spawn - 2600
2. cyclops - 2280
3. vampire - 2250
But vampires have no retaliation ability, so real deffense coeff. should be 4500 as they will get only half of damage per round
Due to draining life ability and its combination with other specs, I am sure that vampire is more useful than venom spawn in most of situation. But no doubt that venom spawn is still excelent unit.
Note: I have only plain version of HOMM4 (no Equilibris or datadisk versions) installed.

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Fortress_fan
Fortress_fan

Disgraceful

posted December 28, 2006 02:11 AM

Let's make a quick calculation

The Vampire has 30 defence and 75 HP
The Venom spawn has 26 defence and 100 HP
A Hydra does average 44 damage (29-60) and has 30 attack. It also processes the no retaliation ability.

Attacking Venom Spawn: 51 HP lost first attack, 102 HP lost second attack (VENOM SPAWN DIES). With a bit of luck however, it would have survived

Attacking Vampires: 44 HP lost first attack, 88 HP lost second attack (VAMPIRE DIES).

Well, both dies against a hydra, but this show that a Venom spawn can last longer than a Vampire.  In a real battle however, the Venom spawn would have decimated the enemy before it coud reach it and it would have some creatures defending it.

Quote:
Vampires are more useful than Venom Spawns


Consider that:

¤ The Venom Spawn is a shooter

¤ The Venom Spawn is Necropolis ONLY Shooter

¤ The Venom Spawn can poison


¤ Vampires is flying, but Necropolis already have a level 1 flying unit (Imps), a level 2 flying unit (Ghosts) and two flying level 4 units (Devils teleport, which is even better). So there is no shortage of flying units in the Necropolis and that ability is nothing compared to ranged attack.

¤ Vampires have no retaliation, just as the cerberi. There is no real shortage of such units either, considering that ghosts are useless level 2 units and should never be taken. Vampires, with their low HP will easily be shoot down from a distance, so the difference is minimal anyway.

¤ Vampires are undead, so you cant mix them with Order or Chaos.

¤ Life drain only drains half of the inflicted damage (100% in Heroes III). This means that it won’t help Vampires crappy HP much.

¤ You can raise Vampires with necromancy anyway


So therefore, always take Venom Spawns before Vampires.

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tenzor
tenzor


Adventuring Hero
posted December 29, 2006 01:16 AM

Quote:
Consider that:

¤ The Venom Spawn is a shooter

¤ The Venom Spawn is Necropolis ONLY Shooter

¤ The Venom Spawn can poison


¤ Vampires is flying, but Necropolis already have a level 1 flying unit (Imps), a level 2 flying unit (Ghosts) and two flying level 4 units (Devils teleport, which is even better). So there is no shortage of flying units in the Necropolis and that ability is nothing compared to ranged attack.



I know that there are another flying units in Necropolis army, but this is still useful ability. Attacking units, especially the ranged ones is much more easier in many situations.

Quote:

¤ Vampires have no retaliation, just as the cerberi. There is no real shortage of such units either, considering that ghosts are useless level 2 units and should never be taken. Vampires, with their low HP will easily be shoot down from a distance, so the difference is minimal anyway.



Please don't talk about 'shortage', no retaliation means that unit has 2 attack per round while the enemy only one - combat value is therefore raised (by 41% by average) and I have mentioned in previous post, vampire is the most durable 3lev unit due to high stats AND no retaliation. Of course, this is true only in melee combat, but vampire's low HPs are balanced by high defense, so I disagree that vampire can be easily shot down (3rd most durable unit from 18 lev3 ones if attacked by range).
I don't dispute 3 facts: 1. venom spawns are even more durable in range combat than vampires, 2. vampires can be easily killed by spells causing direct damage, 3. venom spawn is extremely useful, dangerous and tough unit (and unfortunately the only one shooter of Death)

Quote:

¤ Vampires are undead, so you cant mix them with Order or Chaos.



You must use only 'inferno' units then if you don't want to do this (skeletons, ghosts and bone dragons are undeads as well)! With necromancy skill, you can raise skeletons, ghosts and vampires, so this is IMHO very bad idea.

Quote:

¤ Life drain only drains half of the inflicted damage (100% in Heroes III). This means that it won’t help Vampires crappy HP much.



Do you think that 7.5 hit points sucked from victim with defense=30 (very high!) per vampire is not enough?. Vampire lords from HOMM III had mediocre combat stats, while HOMM4 vampires are very good (see my previous post again).
Lets assume that vampires stand agains units with equal combat strength (=number of units * attack * damage * defense * hit points).
Scenario a - vampires attack as first:
Most of units will inflict damage around 20% of HPs per attack if fighting against stack with equal combat strength. So vampires will cause damage of 40% HPs in 1st round (20+20) and they will lost 16% (no retaliation, enemy reduced to 80%, 0.8*20=16), but they will also regenerate their wounds - 16% of HPs in average per attack - so they are in full strength after 1st round!
Scenatio b - vampires get attacked:
vampires will lose 20% and regenerate 16%. Then they attack enemy with no retaliation - they will cause aditional 19.2% damage ((1-0.2+0.16)*0.2) and regenerate remaining 4%.
In battle against (average) enemy with double combat strength, scenario a:
vampires will cause damage 10% per attack, receiving 40%. As they begin round with no retaliation, enemy will then cause only 36% of damage to them, 16% is regenerated. After first round, both sides are reduced to 80%, but in begining of 2nd round, vampires can ressurect their HPs contrary to 1st round, so they will win without doubt.
scenatio b:
vampires lose 40%, enemies only 10%. Vampires regenerate 16%. Vampires attack enemy with no retaliation, cause 7.6% of damage, regenerate around 12% - so losses from 1st round are following: 12% vampires, 17.6% enemies. Who will win?
So, 100 vampires can kill e.g. 200 nightmares WITHOUT ANY LOSSES. They are even better when fighting against weaker units (due to their higher hp/combat value ratio).
So in result, no retaliation + life drain raise vampires combat strength to approx. 250% (by 150%] against units that are not mechanical, undead, elemental, without no retaliation or 2 attacks ability.
Do you still think that 'This means that it won’t help Vampires crappy HP much.'?

Quote:

¤ You can raise Vampires with necromancy anyway



Of course (with GM necromancy), and this is why I will build the venom spawn dwelling in case of long game / large map. But please don't force me to buy venom spawns everytime, especially when I am, for example, playing Death on small map against the Chaos

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Fortress_fan
Fortress_fan

Disgraceful

posted December 30, 2006 06:36 PM

Quote:
You must use only 'inferno' units then if you don't want to do this (skeletons, ghosts and bone dragons are undeads as well)! With necromancy skill, you can raise skeletons, ghosts and vampires, so this is IMHO very bad idea.


That is not a bad idea. Skeletons are slow and weak, ghosts are totally inferior to creberi because of their HP and because of creberis attack abilities (no retaliation, three headed attack). Venom spawns… well as I said before are more useful than vampires because they are ranged and have the poison ability. Bone dragons are totally inferiors to devils, they are perfect hero killers and have higher attack ratings than the dragons. So generally, the Inferno creatures are stronger than the Undead in Necropolis.

Quote:
Vampires are the most duable level 3 unit

Never heard about Goblin Knights?

____________

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tenzor
tenzor


Adventuring Hero
posted January 02, 2007 11:26 PM

Quote:
Quote:
You must use only 'inferno' units then if you don't want to do this (skeletons, ghosts and bone dragons are undeads as well)! With necromancy skill, you can raise skeletons, ghosts and vampires, so this is IMHO very bad idea.


That is not a bad idea. Skeletons are slow and weak, ghosts are totally inferior to creberi because of their HP and because of creberis attack abilities (no retaliation, three headed attack). Venom spawns… well as I said before are more useful than vampires because they are ranged and have the poison ability. Bone dragons are totally inferiors to devils, they are perfect hero killers and have higher attack ratings than the dragons. So generally, the Inferno creatures are stronger than the Undead in Necropolis.



Units raised by necromancy are for free, so why don't use them Yes, skeletons are slow and weak, but they can be used as canon fodder and as they are for free, you won't cry if you lose them
By the way, ghost are not so bad as you thing. They are insubstantial - their defense is doubled (to 30!) so this ability is almost as good as no retaliation. Aging + flying are also good and predestinate ghosts for tactical usage. By the way, if you will buy ghosts in the city, they have bigger growth and less expensive than cerberies. The only real weakness of ghosts are their low hps so they can be decimated by attack spells easily.
And raising vampires is often key to the victory.
Also, in combat, devils are weaker (but more tactical units) than bone dragons. Tell me one reason why the bone dragons are inferiors to devils (in HOMM4, not HOMM3, of course ). Devils have better attack and defense stats but they inflict less damage and have low hps for lev4. On the other side, summoning ice demons and teleport are good abilities.

Quote:
Vampires are the most duable level 3 unit

Never heard about Goblin Knights?


I have heard about them but never see them (I don't have any expansions)

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Fortress_fan
Fortress_fan

Disgraceful

posted January 03, 2007 01:34 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You must use only 'inferno' units then if you don't want to do this (skeletons, ghosts and bone dragons are undeads as well)! With necromancy skill, you can raise skeletons, ghosts and vampires, so this is IMHO very bad idea.


That is not a bad idea. Skeletons are slow and weak, ghosts are totally inferior to creberi because of their HP and because of creberis attack abilities (no retaliation, three headed attack). Venom spawns… well as I said before are more useful than vampires because they are ranged and have the poison ability. Bone dragons are totally inferiors to devils, they are perfect hero killers and have higher attack ratings than the dragons. So generally, the Inferno creatures are stronger than the Undead in Necropolis.



Units raised by necromancy are for free, so why don't use them Yes, skeletons are slow and weak, but they can be used as canon fodder and as they are for free, you won't cry if you lose them
By the way, ghost are not so bad as you thing. They are insubstantial - their defense is doubled (to 30!) so this ability is almost as good as no retaliation. Aging + flying are also good and predestinate ghosts for tactical usage. By the way, if you will buy ghosts in the city, they have bigger growth and less expensive than cerberies. The only real weakness of ghosts are their low hps so they can be decimated by attack spells easily.
And raising vampires is often key to the victory.
Also, in combat, devils are weaker (but more tactical units) than bone dragons. Tell me one reason why the bone dragons are inferiors to devils (in HOMM4, not HOMM3, of course ). Devils have better attack and defense stats but they inflict less damage and have low hps for lev4. On the other side, summoning ice demons and teleport are good abilities.

That is the problem i find with ghosts to, they are decimated so quickly so it isn't even funny. Even the AI knows how to kill 50 ghosts with sorcerer’s implosion. And Cerberi is more useful offensively (No retaliation, three headed attack).

Dragons may seem stronger, but the teleport ability is extremely useful. Lets say the opponent has a wizard (Order and Chaos magic, the best ones) which a full Academy army. On the other side you have a half-decent necromancer, 30 Devils and some fodder. How do you win? You take the devils and kill the wizard and *poof* you got the advantage.

I know this is very unlikely, but it shows how useful teleport is.

Quote:
Vampires are the most duable level 3 unit

Never heard about Goblin Knights?


I have heard about them but never see them (I don't have any expansions)

Don't buy them, no interesting features, and the only half-decent campaign is Baron Von Tarkins, the rest are prue crap.
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stachnie
stachnie


Known Hero
posted January 03, 2007 02:15 PM

I am a fan of Death in H4. My typical build order is (if I have enough resources, of course):

Day 1 - Cerberi
Day 2 - Vampires

I give Vampires to a Necromancer and try to advance him to GM Necromancy ASAP. Usually it happens at level 10 (sooner if I find a Death altar or so). Only then I hire a Death Knight.It works on any difficulty level (of course, on Impossible and if the map is not very rich it takes much longer to build Vampires but the build order is the same).

Venom Spawns are great especially on castle towers but Vampires have Life Drain and usually they take no casualities.


S.

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meph
meph


Adventuring Hero
Rampaging Rampart
posted January 23, 2007 01:18 PM

I prefer just taking all the undead units for the simple reason they can be raised. Imps are transformed into Skeletons, and then I take Ghosts, Vampires and Bone Dragons. One might say that I'd lack a shooter and all (and said one would be right), but that's nothing a bit of tactics and a battling hero cannot solve. In using a powerful Necromancer or two and at least one Death Knight, a lot of the non-shooting problems are solved already.
Besides, using only undeads make it easier to use stuff such as plague and all. Not that those are the best spells, but it's handy stuff.
Only true weakness Ghosts have is spells. Thus, once you face a spellcasting army, what you must do is take down said spellcasters first and then focus on the rest. You'll see your ghosts suddenly do a LOT more.
And Vampires>Venom Spawn. No questions asked. Venom Spawn is a formidable shooter, but the fact that the Vampire regenerates is just too good to pass up. Let it sop up some hits, prey on the weak while your Boneys hit the powerful, and then overwhelm with an army of Vampires. Good game.

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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted February 17, 2007 07:38 PM

of course vampires are more powerfoul than venom spawns, but venom s are more useful in battle

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