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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 31, 2006 02:31 AM |
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Ok, I guess I will try to throw my 5 cents in the discussion here. I'm not that keen of a faction consisting entirely of mechanical units - some of these are certainly too "modern" to suite my taste for HOMAM (Battlecopter!  ), but the combination of Gnomes and Mechanics does make sense.
First of, a general comment: As someone noticed, the Lay On Hands ability of the Alchemist seems completely out of place, because these creatures are mechanical. An easy and very nice way of fixing this would be to do the following:
- Give Mechanic / Engineer the Repair ability (like Gremlins), to make him "heal" Mechanical units.
- Give Alchemist / Scienties ranged ability, to make him use Firearms or Explosives.
I think this would suite both units much better!
Now, I think the discussions concerning abilities are really interesting - especially the contributions from Actionjack are really excellent  - but a lot of the things would need to be systemized. What I do here is therefore not as much to offer new ideas as try to systemize the ideas mentioned above:
Class: Inventor
Class Skill: Crafting
Basic: Hero becomes proficient in Mettalurgi.
Advanced: Hero becomes proficient in Engineering.
Expert: Hero becomes proficient in Alchemy.
(Ultimate: Cuts down prices on improvements or something.)
Crafting allows the Inventor to develop new parts and improvements for his Mechanic Units. Each Machine can be ecquiped with 1 Metallurgic device, 1 Engineering device, and 1 Alchymistic device. (The idea is that these devices will work like the Academy mini-artifacts, but instead of having one Artifact that gives multiple properties, these are separate devices.)
Metallurgic Devices affect Attack and Defence value plus possibly HP. Examples could be Armoured Plates or Armour Spikes to increase Defence or Attack, respectively.
Engineering Devices affect Speed and Initiative and Retaliations. Examples could be Windeup Wheels or Hydraulic Gears to increase Speed and Initiative, respectively.
Alchymistic Devices affect Damage and area of effect. Examples could be Explosive Grenades to make ranged units target 2x2 area, Flaming Oils to make ranged projektiles have a chance of Igniting target (fire damage over subsequent rounds). Can't come up with anything to affect none-ranged units at the moment, but sure someone will have ideas!
Inventors Guild
As a special building in the town, one could have an Inventors Guild, that would come in 3 levels like the current Runic Guild. The Inventors Guild would give access to 1 or 2 Inventions of each level (depending on the total number of Inventions available - the offered number should be less than the total number).
Level 1 Guild: Provides Mettalurgic inventions.
Level 2 Guild: Provides Engineering inventions.
Level 3 Guild: Provides Alchymistic inventions.
One could imagine that a device or feature can only be offered to units if the appropriate skill has been "Invented" in the Guild.
As said, this was just a suggestion to how some of the ideas from above might be better fitted into the framework of the game. And yes, this would make this skill *very* similar to the Artificer skill - which is of course a bit boring, but perhaps not the worst thing - I think the concept of developing technologies Age Of Empires style would be very hard to incorporate into the game.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted December 31, 2006 12:46 PM |
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well. Alcibaides, you seem to have brought the racial skill under wraps.
when i was thinking of guilds, i wasn't thinking
Quote:
Level 1 Guild: Provides Mettalurgic inventions.
Level 2 Guild: Provides Engineering inventions.
Level 3 Guild: Provides Alchymistic inventions.
i was thinking
engineers guild: provides basic inventions. (improved armour etc)
mettalurgy workshop: allows the heroe to access mettalurgic inventions at the engineers guild (galvanising iron)
alchemy workshop: allows the heroe to access alchemic inventions at the engineers guild (transmutation potions etc)
clockwork workshop: allows the heroe to access clockwork inventions at the engineers guild (clockwork wheels etc)
gunpowder workshop: allows the heroe to access gunpowder inventions at the engineers guild (pigeon bombs etc)
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted December 31, 2006 12:50 PM |
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OMG I'm out of discussion for a day and there's 2 pages to read  A sign of an interesting project... I'm flattered 
OK, I think you guys started to complicate engineering a bit too much. But it's still extremely interesting 
Since we haven't defined units' abilities yet, let's first define those and then discuss engineering upgrades.
Now, Alc, what you're suggesting would still be too similar to artificer skill. Adding abilities with every upgrade would be cooler. I agree with giving one improvement of each kind to every unit, but how would it look when you have two stacks of the same unit with different artefacts of the same class, and you want to merge those stacks? One of the artefacts must be destroyed... Perhaps just give the player an option which artefact to destroy and get a refund in resources...
Now about defining BASIC creature abilities (again, let's first do those and then turn to engineering ones): I added Repair Twice ability to the mechanics. I didn't know whom to give the Enraged ability (every town must have a creature with it) so I gave it to gyrocopters... I also gave gyrocopters no retaliation, and strike&return to the battlecopters. We could give them bombs (area effect) with engineering upgrades.
Gave unlimited retaliation to beetles&spiders, and Armoured to Steam Engines/Tanks (had to...). Still thinking up some abilities for the other units...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 31, 2006 01:10 PM |
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Quote:
I didn't know whom to give the Enraged ability (every town must have a creature with it) so I gave it to gyrocopters...
Certainly, every town doesn't HAVE to have a creature with this ability, in fact several (most?) of the towns HAVEN'T got creatures with this ability (or so I think, prove me wrong!). Adding an ability to a creature without any sensible argument why it should be so is a BAD idea - like the Gargoyle and the Zombie having the Enraged abilty - but hey, there are Animates and Undead, so they have no mind, and thus are immune to Mind Affecting effects - and thus should never be able to have the Enraged ability!! And same is true for Gyrocopters - seriously, an enraged helicopter!? Nah, doesn't ringt true, does it? [If you want to give it to someone, give it to either the Mechanic or the Alchemist!]
Btw. an alternative - and imo. less radical look for the Gyrocopter:
Less radical design for the Tank:
 
And yes, I'm a Leonardo Da Vinci fan! But I actually think that's one of the best ways to implement the Mechanical concepts into a medieval setting.
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted December 31, 2006 01:20 PM |
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well nice tanks, i still prefere my old Panzer war tank anyday but still, as fun as this is (not read page 2) is their anything that could go at all in H5? well history, were they live, why they went to war etc etc.
(i got my password back )
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Visit my Site!
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted December 31, 2006 01:46 PM |
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Quote:
Certainly, every town doesn't HAVE to have a creature with this ability, in fact several (most?) of the towns HAVEN'T got creatures with this ability (or so I think, prove me wrong!).
Footmen, demons, zombies (!), blade dancers, gargoyles (!!), hydras, defenders (or some other dwarven creature, I can't exactly remember). Proof enough?
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And same is true for Gyrocopters - seriously, an enraged helicopter!?
The driver is enraged. He becomes like "waaaagh motherland" and in his rage starts shooting and driving more efficiently. Only melee creatures have the enraged ability, so alchemists and mechanics are out of question.
I also like Da Vinci but those devices are too fragile to be used in an army. And anyway, if steam tanks and gyrocopters work for Warhammer, why wouldn't they work for Heroes? Nival took a lot of ideas from Warhammer anyway.
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well history, were they live, why they went to war etc etc.
Coming soon
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted December 31, 2006 01:54 PM |
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Just few tiny little things that I noticed:
1. Your Stone/Siege Thrower is not a shotter?! 
That's very strange.
2. The Alchemist/Sceintist is a shooter.
What does he shoot?
Not every intelligence creature is a shooter...
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted December 31, 2006 02:18 PM |
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Quote:
1. Your Stone/Siege Thrower is not a shotter?!
Oops... Changed it now 
And about the alchemists... Well I have no idea. I guess you're right about that too.  I didn't think about that...
Added gnome racial description to the master post. Not the most important thing but I had to do it too...
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted December 31, 2006 02:29 PM |
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I have a simple problom with your town:
How's it going to look like?
It's going to be a huge room with houses in it?!
And sience when people live inside a labratory?
And If it will be a room, how can the camera look on it from the insdie, if there's no movement place?
And what will be the buldings?
A different kinds of test tubes?!
This is a very strange town, in my opinion.
And by the way:
I'm sorry for being so mean to you guys.
And in the end of the thing, I like your work.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 31, 2006 02:30 PM |
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Seems you're right about the Enraged thing. I still hold, though, that that doesn't meen you HAVE to make an Enraged unit.
Anyway - there are FAR too many ranged units here! Currently, the line-up is:
Level 2: Ranged.
Level 3: Ranged.
Level 4: Strike and return.
Level 5: Caster.
Level 6: Ranged Area attack.
That's simply completely out of balance.
My sugestion would be:
Level 2: Perhaps give inaccurate ability - for reduced damage at long range?
Level 3: Remove ranged ability. Why would this unit have to be ranged anyway?
Level 5: This unit could be ranged and/or have some spell-like ability similar to Fireball (like Greek Fire or Explosives).
Level 6: Remove ranged ability. This is a medieval tank, not a modern tank! It moves over things and tramples them, so it's more like a melee unit anyway.
And about level 4: This unit works by flying over and dropping items - therefore strike and return. To ballance it a bit, one might let ranged and flying units have retaliation.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted December 31, 2006 03:12 PM |
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Quote:
Level 2: Perhaps give inaccurate ability - for reduced damage at long range?
Ok, sounds fair
Quote:
Level 3: Remove ranged ability. Why would this unit have to be ranged anyway?
Well it would otherwise be crap. Don't forget it's a level 3 unit. How would you expect a gnome with a screwdriver to face a fully armoured dwarf on a bear, or a minotaur with two axes? I hence compensated the crapness of a gnome with a handgun.
Quote:
Level 5: This unit could be ranged and/or have some spell-like ability similar to Fireball (like Greek Fire or Explosives).
As GenieLord noticed, what would he shoot?
Btw how can there be Greek fire if there are no Greeks in Ashan? Alchemists will probably simply have curses and blessings. But quite a choice of them, because they neither shoot nor are too good at close combat.
Quote:
Level 6: Remove ranged ability. This is a medieval tank, not a modern tank! It moves over things and tramples them, so it's more like a melee unit anyway.
It has a canon inside. Canons shoot. It will have very little ammo anyway, about 4 or 5.
Quote:
And about level 4: This unit works by flying over and dropping items - therefore strike and return. To ballance it a bit, one might let ranged and flying units have retaliation.
Nah, strong level 4 units are compensated by crappy level 3 units... Plus a not-so-big growth. Besides, that would unbalance things even more, since the factions with more shooters and fliers would fight gnomes better then, let's say, dwarves who have no flying units and have only two ranged ones.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 31, 2006 03:30 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Level 3: Remove ranged ability. Why would this unit have to be ranged anyway?
Well it would otherwise be crap. Don't forget it's a level 3 unit. How would you expect a gnome with a screwdriver to face a fully armoured dwarf on a bear, or a minotaur with two axes? I hence compensated the crapness of a gnome with a handgun.
Then make him level 2 instead!
Quote:
Quote:
Level 5: This unit could be ranged and/or have some spell-like ability similar to Fireball (like Greek Fire or Explosives).
As GenieLord noticed, what would he shoot?
Btw how can there be Greek fire if there are no Greeks in Ashan? Alchemists will probably simply have curses and blessings. But quite a choice of them, because they neither shoot nor are too good at close combat.
He could throw potions of Explosives?
Quote:
Quote:
Level 6: Remove ranged ability. This is a medieval tank, not a modern tank! It moves over things and tramples them, so it's more like a melee unit anyway.
It has a canon inside. Canons shoot. It will have very little ammo anyway, about 4 or 5.
You should just be aware that having a town with that many ranged units will be a problem for gameplay.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted December 31, 2006 03:43 PM |
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Why would it? Low HP compensated with ranged abilities. What's wrong with that? It's just unusual
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Ma_trix
Adventuring Hero
Carpe Diem
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posted December 31, 2006 03:52 PM |
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There are some totally meele towns (especially Inferno with just one shooter) so why shouldn't there be much more ranged-orientated city? It just has to be balanced in aspects of HP, shoots and initiative.
I agree with Alcibiades in matter of changing levels of Stone Thrower and Mechanic - IMHO 2nd level for Stone thrower is a bit too low as for wall destroyer and 2nd level might fit Mechanic very well while he is mentioned to have low damage and low HP as a "payment" for his abilities (repairing? and?).
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 31, 2006 04:12 PM |
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You cannot compensate ranged ability only with low Hit Points. Ranged units are a huge advantage against neutrals, and a faction with too many ranged units on lower levels is going to have a huge advantage in early game. True, by giving the less HP the table can turn while fighting an army with a lot of fast creatures that can cross the battlefield in one turn - but that doesn't solve the problem, only underscores it!
Every town in the game have between 2 and 3 ranged units - even Inferno: You have to count the Pit Lord as ranged, because the Offensive Spellcasting ability is equal to ranged attack. True, Inferno probably has the least ranged firepower, but the only reason for this is that it's ballanced by the Gating ability, that allows you to call in enforcements everywhere on the battlefield - enforcements that it's costless for you to lose!
Just because it's not seen in the game before is not a reason it should not come - but tampering with some things will inevitably tip the ballance, and this is one of those things I believe one should be very carefull about meddling with. Of course, I might be wrong, but so far, nobody have been able to convince me that that's the case.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted December 31, 2006 04:41 PM |
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Quote:
I have a simple problom with your town:
How's it going to look like?
It's going to be a huge room with houses in it?!
And sience when people live inside a labratory?
And If it will be a room, how can the camera look on it from the insdie, if there's no movement place?
And what will be the buldings?
A different kinds of test tubes?!
This is a very strange town, in my opinion.
And by the way:
I'm sorry for being so mean to you guys.
And in the end of the thing, I like your work.
I know that quating myself is stupid. >_<
But you didn't answer my question.
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KnightDougal
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted December 31, 2006 04:54 PM |
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The Steam Tank shoud have got ranged ability. It is a modern tank, and not medieval.
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 31, 2006 05:39 PM |
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Everyone have their own opinion of things.. but again.. thats what a fourm is for!
Why not do this... using the creature line up that was first proposed by Baklava as a back-blue-print, challenge the creative memebers of the fourm to come up with filling it with their own design (stats, abality, strength, weakness, etc) on how such creature should be. Also might want to take in account the factional ablity of upgrading mechanics (regardless how that system might be) in your creature line up.
This way, its easier and better to see the overall design of what each person is aiming for, instead of arguing over each every little thing.
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KnightDougal
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted December 31, 2006 05:53 PM |
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I suggest Battlecopter and Gryocporters shoud have Mechanical and Ranged ability. It is shoots with a cannon! And they must have got Flyer ability! Amybody heard about a helicporter, what do not do flying? No?  Then why the Battlecopter and Gyrocporter do not have got Flying ability?!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 01, 2007 01:14 AM |
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Quote:
Everyone have their own opinion of things.. but again.. thats what a fourm is for!
Why not do this... using the creature line up that was first proposed by Baklava as a back-blue-print, challenge the creative memebers of the fourm to come up with filling it with their own design (stats, abality, strength, weakness, etc) on how such creature should be. Also might want to take in account the factional ablity of upgrading mechanics (regardless how that system might be) in your creature line up.
This way, its easier and better to see the overall design of what each person is aiming for, instead of arguing over each every little thing.
This is actually a great idea - if Baklave gives his to it!
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