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| Thread: The Perfect Encampment |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV |
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 22, 2007 04:51 PM |
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People, let's try to stay focused here. Moving around in your town is still overpowered in my opinion and I fear it would hardly be workable since there is hardly any room for towns an nearly all maps anyway. Also moving the town around kind of messes up the system of the game, where your hero moves around and needs to come back to the town every once in a while to stock up on troops and spells.
Either way I have come up with a new proposal on the creatures of the town. Again this is just a proposal, it is up for debate and it is not final in any way. I will descibe them generaly and will include a few (!) abilities to add some more of an idea on the units.
1
Poacher
Basic Gnoll infantry armed with hatchet
Upgrade
Trapper
Gnoll infantry carrying a cutlass
-Netting(able to throw a net to a creature 1 tile away, prevents enemy from moving)
2
Flailer
Gnoll armed with a ball on a long chain.
-Shooter; -Limited Range(Only able to shoot over half of the battlefield, range penalty wil work like normal(meaning the rangepenalty will be gone at the same range as normal shooters))
Upgrade
Crusher
Gnoll armed with a big spiked ball on a long chain.
-Shooter; -Limited Range; -Precise Shot
3
Skinner
Gnoll armed with metal fighting claws
Upgrade
Reaver
Gnoll armed with metal fighting claws on both hands
4
War Boar
Armoured Gnoll rinding on a giant boar/warthog
-Large Creature
Upgrade
Charger Boar
Armoured Gnoll riding on an angry, armoured, giant boar/warthog
-Large Creature; Raging Charge(able to charge enemy for full damage and knocking aside creatures between this unit and the target, will decrease initiative drasticly next round(usable against castlegates, but not normal walls))
5
Beholder
Basic Beholder without eyestalks
-Shooter; -Caster[Weakness]
Upgrade
Beholder Seer
Blue-silver glowing beholder with eyestalks
Shooter; -Caster[Weakness, Decay, Icebolt]; Mental Barrier(Beholder recieves only 60% of both physical and magical shooting attacks){ment to counter realy low defence}
6
Roc
Gnoll riding on a Roc bird
-Large Creature; -Flyer
Upgrade
Huricane Roc
Gnoll riding a white Roc with armoured tallons and back
-Large Creature; -Flyer; -Huricane(creature is abel to create a whirlwind in a 3x3 space, clearing space of all creatures and damaging them slightly)
7
Werewolf
Monsterous brown wolf
-Large Creature; -No Retaliation; -Fear Attack
Upgrade
Rabid Werewolf
Monsterous black wolf, with longer claws and bigger teeth
-Large Creature; -No Retaliation; -Fear Attack; Lunacy(no effect yet)
Hero
Witchdoctor
Like I said before, I listed only a few abilities, they need more.
I also wanted to keep in the Beholders and have come up with a rough story for the reason they are with the Gnolls.
Basicly the Beholders are an intelligent, telepathical and magical race, but they have a very delicate bodystructure, meaning they can hardly defend themselves when it comes to a outright war. Originally cave dwellers, the Beholders fled there when the Dark Elves came to reside in the caves, knowing they would loose an all-out strugle against them. The Beholders fled to the plains, where they discovered the Gnolls. The primitive Gnolls, while physically very capable, had hardly any magical skills. The Beholders quickly impressed the Gnolls with their magic and persuaded them to take them into their Encampments, trading their magical and intelectual skills for being protected by the Gnolls.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 22, 2007 05:12 PM |
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i see, so the beholders make a pact with the gnolls, for protection, the gnolls learn magic.
i've seen similar things in other games.
WOW: naaru and dreani, naaru make a pact with the dreani so that the dreani are protected as long as they start recruiting races for the naarus army of light.
Rise of legends: the Cuotl, a race of aliens, control the local populace to make them think they are gods!
the line-up is good, but i have an alteration. the Beholders are supposed to be really powerful, right. so put them in lvl7 and have the werewolves come down a level to lvl5, as no race has a caster for lvl 7.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 22, 2007 07:00 PM |
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Quote:
the line-up is good, but i have an alteration. the Beholders are supposed to be really powerful, right. so put them in lvl7 and have the werewolves come down a level to lvl5, as no race has a caster for lvl 7.
The Beholders are good, but not that good.
Also I planned the Werewolves to be a creature, recently discovered and summoned by the Beholders, the Gnoll believe them to be Demi-gods sent by the moons. The Beholder know better, but leave the Gnolls to believe that, in order to accept them.
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baklava
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posted January 22, 2007 07:47 PM |
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Quote:
Rise of legends: the Cuotl, a race of aliens, control the local populace to make them think they are gods!
Actually it's not a race of aliens, it's THREE aliens  They came, got fancy robots, and made the local population worship them... How cool is that? 
@Topic
How exactly do flailers shoot? Flails are quite heavy, they can't wear a few of them and then throw them around. Especially gnolls.
(btw flailer is a horrible name, and crusher is not far from being awful too... why not call them brigand/marauder?)
Skinners are pretty similar to berserkers, hurricane rocs SERIOUSLY need a name change (what's wrong with good old thunderbirds?) and the idea of werewolves at level 7 is frightening... Btw I think the word you were looking for werewolves' ability is lycanthropy, not lunacy. My idea for lycanthropy is that their attacks have a chance to have life-draining effect.
My lineup would be:
1 - Poacher/trapper
2 - Brigand/marauder (renamed flailers/crushers)
3 - Werewolf/Rabid werewolf
4 - Beholder/Grotesque Beholder
5 - Roc/Thunderbird
6 - Crusher/Juggernaut. The name doesn't explain so I will - RHINO RIDERS  Fasten your seatbelts Dorothy, cause Cansas is going bye-bye... That would at least explain why Gnoll riders are stronger than dwarven ones...
7 - I don't know about level 7... We could put in some giant earthworms, like those from Dune...
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 22, 2007 08:04 PM |
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Quote:
The Beholders are good, but not that good.
Also I planned the Werewolves to be a creature, recently discovered and summoned by the Beholders, the Gnoll believe them to be Demi-gods sent by the moons. The Beholder know better, but leave the Gnolls to believe that, in order to accept them.
ah, now i see. i think it would be better if they are at lvl6 (too be honest, the roc rider isn't very good) and have a different creature. wolf dragon might be a good idea, or a lunar dragon alternativly.
the witchdoctor hero sounds interesting. i have an idea about a special skill. gnolls are often associated with dogs, so its simple.
racial skill- house of dogs
the gnolls train dogs as specialised creatures, be they hunter dogs, attack dogs, or even dogs that are magical! witchdoctors can summon these trained beasts into the battlefield, boalstering the forces of the gnolls. the ultimate goal of any witch doctor is to summon a Kitsune, a legendary silver fox with nine tails, who is one of the moons messangers on earth.
it basically works like summoning, but only with four creatures. basic allows you to summon war dogs, advanced allows you to summon a magi dog (hero gains 1/2*the amount of magi dogs on the battlefeild additional mana), expert allows you to summon Shakugu (a massive grey raccon like dog with one tail who can attack with porcupine spines from its tail) ultimate allows you to summon kitsune (See description above, a powerful spellcaster)
basically its a gnoll tradition that has never left them.
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baklava
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posted January 22, 2007 08:15 PM |
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Magi dogs? Racoon-like dogs with spiked tails? The dog idea isn't bad, but needs work... Besides, witchdoctors don't have much in common with dogs...
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 22, 2007 09:43 PM |
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Quote:
How exactly do flailers shoot? Flails are quite heavy, they can't wear a few of them and then throw them around. Especially gnolls.
(btw flailer is a horrible name, and crusher is not far from being awful too... why not call them brigand/marauder?)
They don't exactly shoot as such. The way it works is this: The Gnoll swings the ball around on a short length of chain in one hand and hold the end of the chain in the other. When the Gnoll wants to 'shoot' he releases the hand swinging the ball; thus throwing the ball through the air by the momentum it already had, hitting the enemy and dragging the ball back on it's chain. The Limited Range is due to the limited lengt of chain and the shots actualy equals the stamina of the Gnoll, because it is like you said quite heavy.
I would agree that the names are rather bad. But we can't use Brigand/Marauder, because we already used Marauder in the Perfect Stronghold and brigand is just a different word for bandit, which wouldn't make much sense.
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hurricane rocs SERIOUSLY need a name change (what's wrong with good old thunderbirds?) and the idea of werewolves at level 7 is frightening... Btw I think the word you were looking for werewolves' ability is lycanthropy, not lunacy. My idea for lycanthropy is that their attacks have a chance to have life-draining effect.
The thing wrong with Thunderbirds is that it makes no sense. How can a, fairly normal, gaint bird of prey(AKA the Roc) become a celestial creature with power over the weather (AKA the Thunderbird)? I can't think of a plausibel way of explaining that change, not even with the inclusing of magic. I also insist that if we include the Roc, it must be ridden, because there would be no reason for it to fight for the Gnolls if it's not forced to do so.(And but less important, if we don't do so there are to few Gnolls to represent racial unity)
And I did mean Lunacy, not Lycanthropy. Lycanthropy is a psychiatrical state of mind, where the patient thinks s/he is a dog/wolf. Lunacy, originaly was a legal-therm in 18-19th century Brittain, which ment that the person suffering from lunacy was driven mad by the moon or the changes of the moon; now-a-days it has been downgraded to mean the same thing as insanity. So Lunacy fit's Werewolves rather well. But werewolves on level 3 would work well and is worth considering.
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6 - Crusher/Juggernaut. The name doesn't explain so I will - RHINO RIDERS Fasten your seatbelts Dorothy, cause Cansas is going bye-bye... That would at least explain why Gnoll riders are stronger than dwarven ones...
I must say I like the idea of Rhinoriders better than boarsriders, but the name needs some work, basicly because Crusher has no real reference to rhinos and a Juggenaut/Juggernaught is by definition a big Mechanical thing and last time I checked rhinos were not mechanical. Also the Raging Charge skill would realy fit the rhinorider.
I must say I realy detest of using giant worms as a level 7. In anything such a creature is implemented it is hazzardous to all forms of life, it would make even less sense than a Thunderbird-transformating if such creatures would fight for and with the Gnolls.
As far as summoning dogs goes: WHY ? Summoning a pack of dogs would be worth considering as a specialty of summoning magic, but not as a racial skill. Like Baklava said, there is no connection between witchdoctors and dogs. I say that if we would use a Witchdoctor as a hero (which was part of the proposal) we should use Voodoo as the Racial skill.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 22, 2007 10:19 PM |
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i was trying to find a creature that was in common with gnolls, and dogs are one of them.
so sue me, it was just an idea!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 22, 2007 11:14 PM |
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Quote:
They don't exactly shoot as such. The way it works is this: The Gnoll swings the ball around on a short length of chain in one hand and hold the end of the chain in the other. When the Gnoll wants to 'shoot' he releases the hand swinging the ball; thus throwing the ball through the air by the momentum it already had, hitting the enemy and dragging the ball back on it's chain. The Limited Range is due to the limited lengt of chain and the shots actualy equals the stamina of the Gnoll, because it is like you said quite heavy.
Then you have the wrong names for these Abilities. Ranged and Precise shot give the completely wrong impression. Aim for an Ability like Reach instead, and define the reach length of the unit (typically 1 square, meaning that the unit can attack a unit two squares away. This worked fine in Heroes 4 for the Pikeman).
Quote:
The thing wrong with Thunderbirds is that it makes no sense. How can a, fairly normal, gaint bird of prey(AKA the Roc) become a celestial creature with power over the weather (AKA the Thunderbird)? I can't think of a plausibel way of explaining that change, not even with the inclusing of magic.
I entirely agree with you in that. I aimed for Thunderbird / Lightningbird once, but people generally thought that Lightningbird sounded strange. I liked it myself, however - but people seamed to prefer the traditional Roc / Thunderbird.
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I also insist that if we include the Roc, it must be ridden, because there would be no reason for it to fight for the Gnolls if it's not forced to do so.(And but less important, if we don't do so there are to few Gnolls to represent racial unity)
Personally, I was never a fan of all these cavalry units. It seems so ... contrived. I mean, what's actually the chance of a Dwarf mounting a Bear? Or a Gnoll mounting a Rhino - or a Roc? But if it has to be, make it something earthbound at least, and let the Roc (or whatever we call it) fight as it is.
If you want the Gnoll represented, I'd still retain: Skip the Werewolf. Werewolfs are a very special type of creatures, and just like it wouldn't be appropriate for the Vampire to be included in the Sylvan ranks, just because it looks like an Elf, the Werewolf should not mix with the Gnolls if you ask me. Instead, bring back the Gnoll spellcaster - probably in level 3. There are currently no level 3 casters, so that would be obvious.
Also, I agree with Bixie and your original idea: Let the Beholder hold the place as level 7 monster. Sure, it's a change from previous Heroes games, but traditionally, the Beholder is an extremely powerfull creature. And there are no level 7 casters, so that would be very welcome. I think a nice line-up would be:
Level 1: Poacher / Trapper.
Level 2: Wolf (yay - the extermination of another neutral! - or you could use Boar if you prefer)
Level 3: Gnoll Priest (Moon Priest was a nice name)
Level 4: Flind / something (read subrace paragraph here - essentially your Flailer)
Level 5: Rhino rider (whatever name - but *not* Jugganaut, please)
Level 6: "Roc" (or whatever you call it) - or Manticore (yay - extermination of a neutral!)
Level 7: Beholder
You can swap levels 5 and 6, but with the only flyer on level 5, this factions going to be hard pressed during siege.
Acutally, the Rhino would be a cool mount for the Hero as well.
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alcibiades
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Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 23, 2007 09:53 AM |
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Quote:
About the flind:
Flinds are made-up by dungeons & dragons and ended up somehow in wikipedia...
Eh - and where did you think the Gnoll came from?
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baklava
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posted January 23, 2007 11:36 AM |
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Quote:
They don't exactly shoot as such. The way it works is this: The Gnoll swings the ball around on a short length of chain in one hand and hold the end of the chain in the other. When the Gnoll wants to 'shoot' he releases the hand swinging the ball; thus throwing the ball through the air by the momentum it already had, hitting the enemy and dragging the ball back on it's chain. The Limited Range is due to the limited lengt of chain and the shots actualy equals the stamina of the Gnoll, because it is like you said quite heavy.
So their chains have half the length of a battlefield? Doesn't sound so good to me... How about giving them boomerangs? That would rock... They'd totally be half African half Australian...
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But we can't use Brigand/Marauder, because we already used Marauder in the Perfect Stronghold
Right, I forgot... Sorry...
Alcibiades, what on Earth do you have against neutrals? Leave them be, don't mix Manticores or snow wolves with gnolls just to get rid of them...
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About the Beholder:
Beholders are magical lawful-evil beings that dislike stupid creatures, they would never work togheter with chaotic gnolls.. They also seem out of place here.
That's what I was trying to say all the time, but never mind. You'll get used to it in time Just like I did...
Let's say they use gnolls for their own purpose... They get most of the loot since they're some sort of their overlords.
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted January 23, 2007 11:40 AM |
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nice work Baklava, personally i think you should either update your 1st post or create a master post
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alcibiades
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of Gold Dragons
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posted January 23, 2007 01:41 PM |
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Quote:
Alcibiades, what on Earth do you have against neutrals? Leave them be, don't mix Manticores or snow wolves with gnolls just to get rid of them...
Like I said in another thread: I don't like neutrals, because it's a waisted opportunity for an otherwise perfectly good unit to enter the game. As a neutral it will only end up being unimportant, because you will never really use it in your army (except perhaps for a short while or in very special map settings).
I'm not trying to get rid of the neutrals because I don't like them - quite on the contrary, I try to give them a home, because that'll give them a proper place in the game. And yes, the current wolf is associated with snow, but there are wolfs on prairies as well, if I'm not mistaken, so that's just a technical detail. And for the Manticore - I don't see why this is a worse associate than a boar and a rhino. So for me, this is just a way of solving two problems at the same time: Making creatures for this faction, and in the same time the current neutrals get a proper place in the game.
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bixie
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Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 23, 2007 02:42 PM |
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Quote:
So their chains have half the length of a battlefield? Doesn't sound so good to me... How about giving them boomerangs? That would rock... They'd totally be half African half Australian...
boomerangs, yay. or even better are bolas, piece of string with three weight balls at the ends, often used to entangle creatures. that would fit with the tracker theme better!
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baklava
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posted January 23, 2007 09:42 PM |
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Quote:
Like I said in another thread: I don't like neutrals, because it's a waisted opportunity for an otherwise perfectly good unit to enter the game.
It's an even bigger waste to force it into a totally unrelated faction...
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And for the Manticore - I don't see why this is a worse associate than a boar and a rhino.
Well for starters, manticore graphics in heroes V are horrible. Second, they dwell in caves and I had some idea of rebuilding a faction similar to the heroes III dungeon after we finish the lab and encampment... That's why I was against including beholders here all along. We must make plans for the future, too... Otherwise we, the PS crew, may just find ourselves without a hobby 
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boomerangs, yay. or even better are bolas
We could make unupgraded ones have bolas and upgraded ones boomerangs... That would, like, ROCK! Giving Aussie stuff to gnolls is actually the thing that may just make them cool...
But that's just me.
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Ted
Promising
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Peanut Exterminator
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posted January 24, 2007 12:59 PM |
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aussie gnolls? i think you spent to much time on your computer baklava
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baklava
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posted January 24, 2007 08:37 PM |
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Nope, I spent too much time on weed... There's no way computers can give you ideas of Aussie gnolls
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alcibiades
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of Gold Dragons
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posted January 26, 2007 02:46 PM |
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Well, that's not quite true what you write there, but let me explain for you. I don't want a town consisting of only one type of units. I want towns with a primary race which will constitute 4 or 5 of the units and then 2 or 3 (magical) beasts allied/grouped with this race. Thus, the Humans have Griffins and Angels, the Elves have Unicorns, Treants and Dragons, the Dwarves have Dragons (and Thanes), the Darkelves have Hydras, Minotaurs and Dragons.
Thus, you could have Gnolls (humanoid) associated with Beholders and Manticores (beasts) as an example. You could have Nagas (humanoids) associated with Basilisks and Wyverns (beasts). You could have Centaurs (humanoids) associated with Gorgons and Thunderbirds (beasts). And you could have Orcs (humanoids) associated with Vultures and Behemoths (beasts). But I don't want Orcs (humanoids) associated with Goblins (humanoids), Ogres (humanoids), Trolls (humanoids) and Cyclops (humanoids).
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baklava
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posted January 26, 2007 08:50 PM |
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I don't want Orcs (humanoids) associated with Goblins (humanoids)
Ok, there's something you don't understand:
When God created the Earth, he created water, land, animals, trees, cellphones etc. Then he created humans (Accidentally. There's no way he intentionally created something as horrible and pointless as us). After that, he explained some simple things to us, cavemen at the time:
1) Rocks can be tough to digest, avoid eating them
2) You eat through your mouth and crap through your butt. Do not try to prove that wrong.
3) When you invent fantasy games, be sure you ALWAYS associate goblins with orcs.
Of course, there are those who made deals with the Devil such as guys from "Blizzard" and people who invented Age of Wonders, but those cases are rare. Orcs and goblins go together. That's the way it is.
Don't look at me, I didn't invent that system. I'm just saying how it's blasphemic to divide orcs and goblins.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 26, 2007 09:35 PM |
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hehehe
i'm baklava's blasphemor!
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