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| Thread: More about infernal units |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 23, 2007 03:41 PM |
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More about infernal units
Let's do a little review of the underestimated hellish force.
imps
I.M.P. - I Must Perish. Ridiculously weak, will die to anything, but they come with a powerful mana destroy speciality, which tops all the level1 creatures abilities in the game. For every 4 imps, enemy loses 1 mana point.. Excellent against particulary strong magical heroes with low mana points. Offensively, the unit isn't bad, but it's WAY too vulnerable to be of any use except mana destroying.
Rating: 7/10
familiars
A bit more durable (but still poor), and their ability now gives us the drained mana rather then destroying it. Well, knowledge is one of demonlords' prime stats, but still, a throng of imps can give the demon heroes enough mana to toss puppet master and frenzy like MAD while wasting a lot of mana points for hellfire, so.. definitely worth to upgrade those guys. Again, do quite a lot damage for a level 1 unit and offer initiative high enough to drain the enemy hero before he/she can act. Very valuable. Never use them in creeping.
Rating: 8/10
horned demons
Poor, poor units. However, they make a fine meatshield - for, say, Deleb while she is destroying the creeps with ballista. You will eventually want to recruit 2-3 populations of these things, later there is no need for meatshields cuz your army grows strong. Horned overseers suck in everything. Horrible crap.
Rating: 2/10
Horned Overseers
A little upgrade, but they still SUCK. yes, S-U-C-K. Explosion isn't that strong and before they perform it, they will be long dead. No need to upgrade - it doesn't increase their HP so standard horned demons tank equally well. Save the cash & resources for something better.
Rating: 1/10 (for the upgrade)
Hell hounds
Those creatures are fast, and... umm.. fast. That's right, they don't offer anything except their speed.. Very fragile and they do little damage because of their low growth. Also, they offer 0 (zero  ) specials. Weak unit. Period.
Rating: 3/10
Cerberi
Now, that's a nice upgrade! Still die like flies, BUT.. let's see. No retal - goodie. Triple attack - yum! +1 point of speed - yeah, you can reach the front line in 1st turn. The point of these creatures is to charge, attack 2-3 targets, possibly triggering luck and hellfire, which ends up in massive first-round damage, and then die. Death doesn't limit their usefulness, though - if the enemy is careless enough to kill them completely, Arch devils can raise pitlords from their bodies. If he kills the majority, they can still be a pain with huge initiative and hellfire even with greatly reduced numbers. So.. in other words, a good creature, if augmented with luck, hellfire and tactics. You may want to gate if the enemy ranged forces are weak.
Rating: 7/10
Succubi
Poor. Seriosly. They are weaker than level3 master hunters in almost every aspect - except the durability, which isn't high anyway. If you plan to use them, upgrade ASAP. Otherwise, forget it. Poor damage, easy to kill, no specials. Bah.
Rating: 3/10
Succubi Mistresses
An upgrade that offers +10 HP and chainshot only. Is it worth it? yes! If you have hellfire, chainshot will be a source of cheap, quite powerful damage, since it can trigger with every jump of the flame. Good thing, and +10 HP never hurts, making them at least mediocre in terms of survival. Oh, gating is a good idea - even more hellfire-triggering fun!
Rating: 6/10
Hell Charger
16 init - wow. With power of speed, it's 21! Amazing. Too bad that att/def is very poor, and the HP is bad too, making it hard to trigger the fear attack. May need hellfire to cover the poor damage output. Except for that, it's a good creature. Try to attack after your damage-soakers (like devils) to avoid counterstrike. They are too fragile to survive it.
Nightmare
Costly, but worthy upgrade, making almost every aspect of the hell charger better. More HP, higher ATT/DEF.. and 8 speed, enabling them to do a first-turn attack. Fear triggers more often, too (thanks to more HPs). Very good against low-hp, annoying units, since they can disable them completely with fear. Fright aura is a good thing too, especially if the enemy doesn't have leadership. A very potent attacker overall, and suprisingly durable aswell.
Rating: 9/10
Pit Fiend
Well.. it's slow, it doesn't have any good abilities, and it's low on mana. Try not to buy them until you get the upgrade, it's WAY better.
rating: 4/10
Pit Lord
Although still slow, this creature has many uses. The offensive spells they carry are very strong in the earlygame, when creatures' numbers are low. Vorpal swords give them huge boost to damage/week, since it makes them kill exactly 1 creature more.. yeah, go for level 7s. And, Vulnerability is underused, but suprisingly good against creature specialists. Still, Pit Lords are next to useless without teleport assault, because they move once per year. But, with the TA they suddenly become extremely deadly.
Rating: 5/10 without Teleport Assault and 9/10 with teleport assault.
Devils
Their dwelling is cheap, and the devil itself is among the best unupgraded level 7 creatures. It's fast, very strong and sooooo easy to get. Obviously get them as soon as you can, they pack quite a punch.
Rating:8/10
Arch Devils
I love those creatures. They often get criticised for not offering much beyond what ordinary devil offers, and it's in fact true. Except for being tougher, they are almost the same creatures. But.. the summon pit lords ability is absolutely great, making it possible to augment your army even more. This way, fallen cerberi will quickly become a good use! Arch Devils are extremely strong offensive units (210 dam/week) and demonlords' overgrown attack makes them very, very useful. Too bad the upgrade itself costs like HELL, so you'll probably upgrade them very late.
Rating: 8+/10
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dschingi
Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
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posted January 23, 2007 04:13 PM |
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Edited by dschingi at 16:14, 23 Jan 2007.
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Nice review
Personally I don't play much with Inferno but it seems you got all important things mentioned . Well, you forgot to rate the Hell Charger.
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open source for an open mind
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 23, 2007 04:22 PM |
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Quote:
Let's do a little review of the underestimated hellish force.
familiars
A bit more durable (but still poor), and their ability now gives us the drained mana rather then destroying it. Well, knowledge is one of demonlords' prime stats, but still, a throng of imps can give the demon heroes enough mana to toss puppet master and frenzy like MAD while wasting a lot of mana points for hellfire, so.. definitely worth to upgrade those guys. Again, do quite a lot damage for a level 1 unit and offer initiative high enough to drain the enemy hero before he/she can act. Very valuable. Never use them in creeping.
Rating: 8/10
Arch Devils
I love those creatures. They often get criticised for not offering much beyond what ordinary devil offers, and it's in fact true. Except for being tougher, they are almost the same creatures. But.. the summon pit lords ability is absolutely great, making it possible to augment your army even more. This way, fallen cerberi will quickly become a good use! Arch Devils are extremely strong offensive units (210 dam/week) and demonlords' overgrown attack makes them very, very useful. Too bad the upgrade itself costs like HELL, so you'll probably upgrade them very late.
Rating: 8+/10
If you played heroes other than Deleb you would see that familiars are needed in creeping at least in the first two weeks. Without a ballista and only hellhounds and horned demons available the familiars are the only ones you can depend on. Just because you start with a good number of them(plus second hero, imp dwelling) you can easily block low tier arhers with just basic gating or steal retaliations from walkers. Their good damage, speed and initiative help but you'll also need motd (snd attack with gated ones) and hellfire to get a weaker retaliation. They simply MUST be preserved.
A bit too obvious, they have a nasty damage range but with their and the demonlord's attack you should not care much about it. Decent unit but with the pitlord summoning they become great indeed. Because the pitlords will appear on your opponent's side so he'll be forced to take them out. They can gate more pitlords on their own which makes them deadly(add swarming gate *snicker*). And just because an archdevil can summon up to 2 pitlords even a few of them become a greater threat so they are targetted instead of the other more vulnerable units. If not they can and will turn a battle around. Unfortuantely they cannot deal with ranged fire placed in the corner but gated units and ceberi can take care of that.
Generally a swift mighty army that can disrupt enemy strategies. But not as straightforward as haven, it has some aces up its sleeve.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 23, 2007 04:35 PM |
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You say that several of these units have no "special abilities" - that's not true, because they all have Gating. And like Elvin very truely said, don't underestimate the importance of Gating - and Familiars - in early game. Gating allows you to summon extra stacks - sure, their numbers will be small, but that's not the point, because they will: 1) Block shooters, and 2) absorb retaliations. Thus, you want to have the enemy retaliate on the gated stacks and then move in with your Familiars and Cerberi to do the real damage - without suffering the consequences. This tactic actually works very well and ensures low losses for Inferno to my experience.
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What will happen now?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 23, 2007 04:49 PM |
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I did not include gating here because every unit has it and no need to mention this.
Besides..
I dunno Elvin, I dont need to use so desperate strategies as wasting my familiars at creeping without Deleb. Id rather not lose them, since I do not need to use them. Nebiros + dogs works wonders.
Sure, you can take like 6(or more) emerald dragons with 7 imps, but I can do it with 7 horned demons aswell, and I'd rather waste them instead of IMPs.  (no deleb required btw)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 23, 2007 05:13 PM |
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Nebiros and dogs you mean tactics and cerberi? Because I'd gladly do it if I had the wood and sulfur. Sadly I can't upg hellhounds and build dwellings as the sulfur required for succubi and hellchargers is too much. Most of the times I can't find enough though it's a sure thing if you are to take a sulfur mine! 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 23, 2007 05:32 PM |
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Buy resource silo and sulfur problems will be only a distant memory. Surely worth that 5k gold if the map ain't rich.
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 23, 2007 07:01 PM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 19:03, 23 Jan 2007.
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Horned Overseers are not that bad IMO. There is not much use for them in creeping, true. Not until as protectors of Succubus in an armies conflict. No, not as meathields anymore, but they need the power to kill. A weeks population of Horned Overseers do the same average damage than Familiars and Cerberus! Now lets quikly compare, Familiars are praised for their good damage 2-3, with the growth of 32. Horned Overseers are bashed at damage 1-4 and growth of 30 (32 with horde). Average damage is exactly the same! Even their attack rating is the same 3. What they trade is initiative to HP, which gives them their separate roles.
The upgrade to Horned Overseer gives them 83% more damage, which really is huge. Normally enemy fast creatures can easily come and block Succubus, as Horned Demons pose a threat of no fear. I am saying that it is not the case anymore when upgraded. If Familiars do good damage, then my same definition will Horned Overseers do too.
Just worth more than 1/10 imo
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 23, 2007 07:06 PM |
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as you wish! 1+/10 sounds better? 
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FreshHope
Adventuring Hero
Defender of Light
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posted January 23, 2007 07:20 PM |
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Quote:
as you wish! 1+/10 sounds better?
Ha thats a good one  Well i agree with most of it, and i too cant find horned demons nor horned overseers useful enough compared to imps/familars, but thats perhaps i havent been paying enough attention to them. 1+/10 is good
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Where there is Faith, Hope arises.
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 23, 2007 07:59 PM |
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Quote:
as you wish! 1+/10 sounds better?
Uses the Homer tone "Why you little.." 
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 24, 2007 09:44 AM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 10:55, 24 Jan 2007.
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Quote:
as you wish! 1+/10 sounds better?
I don't understand why you rate marksmen as being better, except for their ranged attack.
Without training, they're nothing. Without Squires & Paladins, they're nothing. So you get the idea...
I'd rate Horned Overseers better than 2/10.. their damage is great and init 8 is not THAT slow. They are much better than Minos
Anyway, Succubi have specials: Ranged Retaliation. Analyze some things better before rating them
I'd like to make an inferno review myself, but I lack the time right now.  and some creatures you said there (like Pit Fiends, Succubi, Horned xxx) are just too underrated.
But nice work overall
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 24, 2007 11:05 AM |
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Quote:
I don't understand why you rate marksmen as being better, except for their ranged attack.
Quote:
Without training, they're nothing. Without Squires & Paladins, they're nothing. So you get the idea...
Say, cerberi without hellfire and luck are nothing aswell. The point is to include every possible power-up. Sure, I could just write down their stats and comment like - attack - good, defense - bad, but you can see that without any of my comments, and no need to just copy the stats from www.heroesofmightandmagic.com.
Quote:
I'd rate Horned Overseers better than 2/10.. their damage is great and init 8 is not THAT slow. They are much better than Minos
Really. Better than minotaurs? Nice joke! Minotaur guards do thrice of their damage And with teleport assault being used on pitlords, how do you want to make them actually move?
Quote:
Anyway, Succubi have specials: Ranged Retaliation. Analyze some things better before rating them
Ouch, forgot that one.. But what do you want me to do, look at some stupid charts and write an "analisis" from them? I write from my experience!
Quote:
I'd like to make an inferno review myself, but I lack the time right now. and some creatures you said there (like Pit Fiends, Succubi, Horned xxx) are just too underrated.
I generally underrate non-upgraded units, with exceptions of course. Why to bother with weaker version, if you can get 3749342 times more useful? Of course, as I said, with exceptions.
Quote:
But nice work overall
thanks
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 24, 2007 11:09 AM |
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Really. Better than minotaurs? Nice joke! Minotaur guards to thrice of their damage And with teleport assault being used on pitlords, how do you want to make them actually move?
They don't have to move, they have to act. And init 8 is just 2 times slower than Nightmares -- whereas Nightmares attack 2 times, Horned Overseers will attack, protecting succubi.
Just because you use TA on Pit lords doesn't mean they are faster than Horned Overseers or more useful as creatures
Quote:
I generally underrate non-upgraded units, with exceptions of course. Why to bother with weaker version, if you can get 3749342 times more useful? Of course, as I said, with exceptions.
Because the upgraded dwellings are very expensive too 
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 24, 2007 11:14 AM |
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But if you take the horned overseers, you can't divide succubi into two stacks, and they work better if splitted & gated to a total of 4 stacks, wrecking havoc with chainshot..
Or, you can split pitlords to a big & small stack and use the small one as a caster (say, vulnerability) and the big one offensively..
But you need a slot, otherwise wasted on horned overseers..
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 24, 2007 11:33 AM |
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Hehe :)
Here's an awesome demonstration of the power of Cerberus versus crappy Arch devils. There are 451 Arch devils, and only 6 cerberi. Clicky
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 24, 2007 11:35 AM |
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Seen that before.
Want me to make a vid - 7 familiars vs crappy 7 emerald dragons? : ] No puppet master or dark magic involved!
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 24, 2007 11:37 AM |
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I wasn't replying to you.. just to show others who haven't seen that thread. and I was joking about devils being crappy, I know PM did all the job
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 24, 2007 11:47 AM |
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Quote:
Seen that before.
Want me to make a vid - 7 familiars vs crappy 7 emerald dragons? : ] No puppet master or dark magic involved!
That would surely be interesting... No Dark? Go ahead.
Or you can explain it if no vid is available... And I remember you saying that it can be done with (we all love 'em) Horny Demons as well?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 24, 2007 11:55 AM |
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yeah, familiars may just be safer.
You need a few levels and excruciating strike.
Because of the power difference, you will face only 1 stack of emerald dragons (most probably)
Start with 7 stacks containing 1 familiar (or demon). Gate in a specific way (so that the original stacks will be protected). The enemy will have to blast the gated ones too.. triggering mark of the damned. Your hero should attack with his regular melee attack. With a bit of luck (excruciating doubles the damage, but has a 40% chance to trigger or so..) your hero will deal with the dragons before they destroy all your stacks. It's risky to take more than 7 this way ;p Ah, enemy stacks like to target warmachines, so it can buy you a round or two.
Emeralds are the most risky because they are the fastest, so your hero will perform less melee attacks before they kill all the familiars. It's better to fight black dragons this way
Of course you may fail, but it's not that hard in fact.
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