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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Creature Specialists - Worth it or not?
Thread: Creature Specialists - Worth it or not? This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted February 17, 2007 05:58 PM bonus applied.

Creature Specialists - Worth it or not?

Since specialists give only ATT/DEF to units, not speed, hp and damage like in heroes3.. The question is: are they worth a shot (let's leave the starting skills aside here, for it's the most important factor in chosing the hero, usually..)

Let's do a quick summary.. the first number is the bonus to damage/week.. the second is the bonus to survivability. Heroes are LVL15. (+8 ATT/DEF)

Dougal: +40, +16%
Laszlo: +25, +6%
Irina: +40, +9%

Orson: +19, +7%
Lucretia: +36, +9%

Gilraen: +24, +18%
Ossir: +64, +20%
Ylthin: +36, +4%

Grawl: +16, +16%
Jezebeth: +35, +12%

Yrwanna: +19, +24%
Kythra: +46, +9%

Havez: +19, +16%
Razzak: +40, +9%
Narxes: +28, +9%


Ingvar: +16, +10%
Karli: +23, +12%
Ebba: +28, +5%
Erling: +38, +7%


Obviously Ossir offers the most significant boost to already strong unit.. he makes it more tough too, which is important since master hunters are fragile. But the others? ...

What do you think?

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sq79
sq79


Famous Hero
posted February 17, 2007 06:02 PM

Quote:
Since specialists give only ATT/DEF to units, not speed, hp and damage like in heroes3.. The question is: are they worth a shot (let's leave the starting skills aside here, for it's the most important factor in chosing the hero, usually..)

Let's do a quick summary.. the first number is the bonus to damage/week.. the second is the bonus to survivability. Heroes are LVL15. (+8 ATT/DEF)

Dougal: +40, +16%
Laszlo: +25, +6%
Irina: +40, +9%

Orson: +19, +7%
Lucretia: +36, +9%

Gilraen: +24, +18%
Ossir: +64, +20%
Ylthin: +36, +4%

Grawl: +16, +16%
Jezebeth: +35, +12%

Yrwanna: +19, +24%
Kythra: +46, +9%

Havez: +19, +16%
Razzak: +40, +9%
Narxes: +28, +9%


Ingvar: +16, +10%
Karli: +23, +12%
Ebba: +28, +5%
Erling: +38, +7%


Obviously Ossir offers the most significant boost to already strong unit.. he makes it more tough too, which is important since master hunters are fragile. But the others? ...

What do you think?


Lucretia, ingvar, havez and irina are great as well
Dougal was awesome in 2.0, now he is tamed since training has been reduced greatly.






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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted February 17, 2007 06:27 PM

Quote:
Since specialists give only ATT/DEF to units, not speed, hp and damage like in heroes3.. The question is: are they worth a shot (let's leave the starting skills aside here, for it's the most important factor in chosing the hero, usually..)

Let's do a quick summary.. the first number is the bonus to damage/week.. the second is the bonus to survivability. Heroes are LVL15. (+8 ATT/DEF)

Dougal: +40, +16%
Laszlo: +25, +6%
Irina: +40, +9%

Orson: +19, +7%
Lucretia: +36, +9%

Gilraen: +24, +18%
Ossir: +64, +20%
Ylthin: +36, +4%

Grawl: +16, +16%
Jezebeth: +35, +12%

Yrwanna: +19, +24%
Kythra: +46, +9%

Havez: +19, +16%
Razzak: +40, +9%
Narxes: +28, +9%


Ingvar: +16, +10%
Karli: +23, +12%
Ebba: +28, +5%
Erling: +38, +7%


Obviously Ossir offers the most significant boost to already strong unit.. he makes it more tough too, which is important since master hunters are fragile. But the others? ...

What do you think?



Its weird how Erling raises Their att so much but do nothing for def, its so weird... the same is for Razzak, but do the golems need the extra Def, for me no.. Actully that shows of at a lot of heroes, why do thier att raise so much when their def dont.. a mysteri to me! And well Ossir seems powerfull !

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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted February 17, 2007 06:33 PM

Good post.

I think the creature bonuses are clearly worth it (middle to late game).  The larger your armies the better the gain will be from the bonuses.

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alchemist85
alchemist85


Hired Hero
Disciple(s II) of Desert
posted February 18, 2007 02:16 AM

Quote:
Its weird how Erling raises Their att so much but do nothing for def, its so weird... the same is for Razzak, but do the golems need the extra Def, for me no.. Actully that shows of at a lot of heroes, why do thier att raise so much when their def dont.. a mysteri to me! And well Ossir seems powerfull !


Well, their def raises just as much as att. But dommforge mentioned SURVIVABILITY. It's obviiously connected with def, which for creatuers like golems, footmen or minotaurs is already high. So adding extra 8 points doesn't change survivability too much (cause it's already high).

I guess doomforge wanted to show the progress of creatuers led by creature specialist, to show if it's worth.


And about Ossir. It shows he's very important hero in Sylvan faction. He boosts survivability of fillar of their army. I think Hunters are one of main power of Sylvan especially in early/mid game (but also in late), so protecting them (by extra def points) is the point
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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 18, 2007 03:52 AM bonus applied.
Edited by Shauku83 at 04:01, 18 Feb 2007.

All creatures get +40% to their damage, so it is obvious that the creatures that do most damage in the first place will get the biggest bonuses.

As for survivability. There it is just the opposite. If you change that percentage into HP gained through the bonuses to defence you will see that the tanks benefit most HP wise. All receive only 71.4% from the damage they are supposed to get because of increase in defence. So, a weekly population of Squires will have effective HP increase of 208! Master Hunter will have an effective HP increase of 78.

I think that if you compare effective Damage then you should also compare effective HP.

If I remember correctly your survivability calculation were made for 100 damage? That is not fair... as you can see that even though Master Hunters get much less effective HP from the defence bonuses, comparativily they gain the most to 100 damage.

Change that damage to 300 and you will see how great that +8 defence is to Squires and how useless for Master Hunters (in both cases all Master Hunters die... )

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alchemist85
alchemist85


Hired Hero
Disciple(s II) of Desert
posted February 18, 2007 12:50 PM

Quote:
Change that damage to 300 and you will see how great that +8 defence is to Squires and how useless for Master Hunters (in both cases all Master Hunters die... )


Yeah... But isn't it that most of creatures would die after 300 dmg attack? How would you compare then e.g Furies and Hunters if both are going to die? The same?
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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 18, 2007 03:27 PM

All I am saying is that this fixed damage favours the creatures with low HP, as you can see from the chart. And no, not clearly all die after 300 damage, just the most fragile ones. I am not supposing that the damage should be changed to 300. I think all damages favour the group who has HP in the range of the damage (therefore the defence bonus will LOOK like the greatest for them)

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted February 18, 2007 03:37 PM

I guess you are right Shauku83, still, I see no other way to calculate it. Ok, we could use fixed 1000 damage and creature with attack 40 to use the same formula for every unit.. But it's not natural, I'd say. Creatures like archangels usually have higher defense than the attackers, why to cripple them with not realistic formula? And 100 damage is something around average damage per week in the game, and since the numbers calculated are also a weekly population, I see no reason to use higher numbers. It fits here, well, I don't know what numbers to use here otherwise.

But yes, charts are always flawed and fixed numbers are never good..

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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted February 18, 2007 03:58 PM

Excellent point Shauku83.  You're right on the money.

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Card_Ximinez
Card_Ximinez


Famous Hero
no
posted February 18, 2007 04:06 PM

You forgot a few Dungeon creature specialists:

Vayshan: Scouts/Assasins
Sorgal: Dark/Grim Raiders

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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted February 18, 2007 04:08 PM

Quote:
You forgot a few Dungeon creature specialists:

Vayshan: Scouts/Assasins
Sorgal: Dark/Grim Raiders


I think the assassins specialist is a joke.  The strength of the assassin is the poison.  The specialist does NOTHING to improve this.  Now, if he had a special ability to increase poison damage by 30%, THAT would be the hero to get.

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dschingi
dschingi


Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
posted February 18, 2007 04:20 PM

IMHO

You want the highest attack bonus for the creature stack which already deals the highest damage (not just its base damage, but how it is really used in battle: how often does it attack? can it attack in first round of the battle? ...). That's because it counts by percentage like Shakau83 already explained.

You want the highest defense bonus for the creature stack which gets attacked most. That can be tanks if your opponent really attacks the tanks, but if not it can also be your Master Hunters e.g. they are not protected well, or your opponent has a lot of ranged creatures.
Example: you have a stack of 30 Master Hunters and 10 Treants, your opponent has 10 Titans. Now if I had to choose, I would give a defense bonus to the Treants, not to the Hunters. The Hunters are more important for attack at the start of the battle, but they will die very soon anyway. A defense bonus for them would just delay their death a little longer. If you see the whole battle, the Treants will be attacked many times more, thus the defense bonus is better for the Treants. Now if you had 130 Hunters it would be different... (The numbers of the creatures here may not be a good example but i think you understand what i want to say)


If you consider these 2 points it should be clear that Ossir's specialization is a good one because Master Hunters are both a major attack force and primary target for your opponent.
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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 18, 2007 04:32 PM

Lets think about it... Hmm.. How about comaparin levels of creatures diferently? Like level 1 creeatures have an average weekly HP of 216. So the damage done to them could be 50% of it...

So level 3 creatures have an average HP of 358 (umm, Dwarves are missing actually) So I will make all creatures take 50% of that damage with attack of 10.

Against Master Hunters it will be 233 damage, and all die (in most calculation they all die, unless you choose the damage to be very low. They are so fragile)But wait, what about Ossir, can he help these killers? With Ossir the damage drops to 162! That means that Ossir allows 3 Master Hunters to survive the blow. It may not seem much, and it is not. But this attack in particular saves 5 Master Hunters total, if there were more than a weekly population. And percentage wise, the increase is from 0% to 21%.. actually almost the same result you got with that 100 damage

Squires will take 187 damage from the same attack, and 8 die. With Lazlo they will only take 132 damage and 5 die. Survivability increase is 3 Squires, which is 15%. A lot more than from your chart.

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted February 18, 2007 07:58 PM

The basic rule for better attack bonus is: High Damage (without Attack) for its weekly population and High Initiative (so that it will attack fast)

For defense bonus: High HP and... to be a pain in the ass for the enemy so that it will be targeted and you'll use the DEF bonus, of course.

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hellwitch
hellwitch


Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
posted February 20, 2007 03:48 PM

And what about Deep Hydras. Their survivability is even better from doom calculation because specials are not incuded. So in my opinion this statists show something that is not real.(i can judge them to 65% true).

P.S. I'm talking about other creatures because we can consider "specialist" bonus like a simple +8 A/D bonus.

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 20, 2007 04:02 PM

No matter how hard you try you can't get everything in charts. Like Pit Lords Vorpal Sword, there is no way it can be added to any calculations yet it increases their damage and usability considerably. Same goes for Area Attacks to an extent, and regeneration of Deep Hydras. What could be done is add a note behind every value. Like weekly population of Succubus Mistress does on average 79 damage to the FIRST target (full range). In total they do 148 damage, all targets included. But if there is only one target...

So all can not be included.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted February 20, 2007 04:26 PM

exactly, Shauku83..

Btw the missing assassin specialist:
Vayshan:
+14, +20%

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hydroman
hydroman

Tavern Dweller
posted February 20, 2007 06:15 PM
Edited by hydroman at 18:15, 20 Feb 2007.

Quote:
You want the highest attack bonus for the creature stack which already deals the highest damage (not just its base damage, but how it is really used in battle: how often does it attack? can it attack in first round of the battle? ...). That's because it counts by percentage like Shakau83 already explained.

You want the highest defense bonus for the creature stack which gets attacked most. That can be tanks if your opponent really attacks the tanks, but if not it can also be your Master Hunters e.g. they are not protected well, or your opponent has a lot of ranged creatures.
Example: you have a stack of 30 Master Hunters and 10 Treants, your opponent has 10 Titans. Now if I had to choose, I would give a defense bonus to the Treants, not to the Hunters. The Hunters are more important for attack at the start of the battle, but they will die very soon anyway. A defense bonus for them would just delay their death a little longer. If you see the whole battle, the Treants will be attacked many times more, thus the defense bonus is better for the Treants. Now if you had 130 Hunters it would be different... (The numbers of the creatures here may not be a good example but i think you understand what i want to say)


If you consider these 2 points it should be clear that Ossir's specialization is a good one because Master Hunters are both a major attack force and primary target for your opponent.


True story. You want attack rating where it will put out the most net damage during battle, and you want defense rating where it will block the most damage during battle. You might have a bonus to scouts/assassins, and that might yield the greatest survivability increase, but it's a bit pointless since the enemy will know this and focus on your furies first, making your defense bonus much less meaningful. If you had a bonus to maidens/furies, on the other hand, the percentages might be less, but you'd be getting the most out of it since the enemy will have to hit them and face your defense bonus.

You might also want to look at creature health, since 100 damage to a stack of treants (you might not even lose one) isn't as meaningful as 100 damage to a stack of marksmen (you're gonna lose a bunch). In the short term, i.e. right after the enemy creature attacks, reducing every bit of damage on your low hp units helps you put out more damage when it's your turn.

Other than that, I agree with most that has already been said; initiative, your play style (how often you use the unit offensively), weeekly growth/damage/hitpoints, special abilities, look at all that stuff when deciding which creature-boosting hero you want.
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PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted February 21, 2007 05:14 AM

I realize you guys are talking about the +attack and +defense but I want to raise another point.

Creature specialists start with many of their special unit.  Ossir Having those extra hunters a level 3 unit really helps your starting creeping.  Similarly Karli starting with all those splittable spearmen (and luck) makes creeping very easy.  Assassins or one unicorn don't help quite as much.
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.

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