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| Thread: High tier creatures overpriced? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 20, 2007 01:17 PM |
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To clear this up: I'm not saying tier 7s should have 752 HP (like the Skeletons vs Angels now) because they are not 'fragile' (i.e. they are not weakened for every 4 HP, like Blink said) but they seriously need an improvement there because it's too low now. Something like this:
Magma Dragons: 440
Black Dragons: 340
Archangels: 300
Archdevils: 290
Emerald Dragons: 280
Titans: 250
Spectral Dragons: 220
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Halm
Hired Hero
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posted March 20, 2007 02:03 PM |
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Edited by Halm at 14:04, 20 Mar 2007.
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@Zombielord
Be carefull, just increasing the Hp will make all lvl 7 to tanks. This can't be the best solution. 
And the 4 Hp argument is only relevant as long as we are speaking of low numbers of creatures...
I think I made it clear that my favorite creatures come from tier lvl 1-3.
If you have similar favorites, there is no need for discussion. And yes that's right then it won't provide anything new information.
I didn't knew that's already common knowledge that all lvl 7 are to expensive compared with the lvl 1. The skeleton isn't an excpetion.
But problably as already said, the developers wanted weak lvl 7th for better (player vs player) balance or whatever.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 20, 2007 02:06 PM |
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Quote:
Be carefull, just increasing the Hp will make all lvl 7 to tanks
Not tanks for their price, but tanks for their 'unfair' growth. I hate this game's growth system because my favorite creatures (low level) are useless compared to the high level ones (and I'm not talking about the price, but about the growth that limits me)
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 20, 2007 02:08 PM |
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ZombieLord, don't you think that's a bit much? And, regular hero attacks will become even more ridiculous (440 damage to magma dragon?  ). Not mentioning excruciating strike, which will do 1000 dam when it triggers. Ridiculous 
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 20, 2007 02:14 PM |
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Well, the Hero Direct Damage can be modded It's too god damn high for high level creatures IMO
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Halm
Hired Hero
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posted March 20, 2007 02:40 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Be carefull, just increasing the Hp will make all lvl 7 to tanks
Not tanks for their price, but tanks for their 'unfair' growth. I hate this game's growth system because my favorite creatures (low level) are useless compared to the high level ones (and I'm not talking about the price, but about the growth that limits me)
For me it's simply effdmg vs effhp and your changes would make me using them as tanks if I have them in my army ... (Even the Ai would do the same).
0,25 0,30 0,22 0,24 0,29 0,36 0,11
->
0,18 0,21 0,16 0,17 0,20 0,29 0,07
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 20, 2007 02:46 PM |
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Quote:
Well, the Hero Direct Damage can be modded It's too god damn high for high level creatures IMO
Can it? Which files?
Anyway, I currently run a MOD which changes the Level 7's slightly, and so far, I'm not seeing any big problems with the level 7's being uber powerufl. This is what I've done:
Haven: Angel 210 HP / Archangel 250 HP
Inferno: Devil 199 HP, Speed 9 / Archdevil 233 HP, Speed 11
Necropolis: Bone Dragons 150 HP, Speed 7 / Spectral Dragon 180 HP, Speed 8
Dungeon: Red Dragon 225 HP / Black Dragon 275 HP
Academy: Giant 200 HP / Titan 220 HP, 16 Mana, Chain Lightning
Sylvan: Emerald Dragon 225 HP / Sapphire Dragon 225 HP
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 20, 2007 02:48 PM |
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@Halm: I said that you are right, because higher tier creatures 'cheat' in growth. Example: the Zombie IS the real tank, and not the Wraith. But, because Wraith is level 6 while the zombie only level 2, the Zombie has low growth (15, but according to their price it's ****) and thus Wraith is more 'tanky'.
15 Zombies cost 975 Gold while 2 Wraiths cost 3600. So you see? they really have low growth even if it's 15...
I hate the fact that this game has so much of a difference between tiers. I hate the tier idea, just make all the creatures equally powerful with one weekly population (7 Assassins should be as strong as 1 Black Dragon ). And ofc, reduce the costs of the high level creatures this way (and the dwelling's too)
I know my above suggestion is not HoMM-ish but that's what I'd like
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 20, 2007 02:52 PM |
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Quote:
I hate the fact that this game has so much of a difference between tiers. I hate the tier idea, just make all the creatures equally powerful with one weekly population (7 Assassins should be as strong as 1 Black Dragon)
as much as I like your suggestions (usually ;p), I hate this one! The tiers were never meant to be equally strong.. wtf, that would lead to the same units with different appearance, YUCK!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 20, 2007 02:55 PM |
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Quote:
I hate the tier idea, just make all the creatures equally powerful with one weekly population (7 Assassins should be as strong as 1 Black Dragon).
I'm totally against this idea! The point with high level creatures are that they are more powerful than the lower level ones. They are more powerful, more expensive, have better abilities, come in lower numbers, and have costly dwellings - and come into the game at a later stage. In this way, you WILL wanna build your town to higher levels, instead of just conquering new towns and make an army of level 1 and 2's only. I think the current system is fine, because the higher resource demands of higher levels reflect the fact that in late game, you have more mines, more income sources, more powerful heroes, etc.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 20, 2007 02:57 PM |
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Quote:
as much as I like your suggestions (usually ;p), I hate this one! The tiers were never meant to be equally strong.. wtf, that would lead to the same units with different appearance, YUCK!
Not really, that's what the abilities are for.
That means other games are because they have a more 'fair' growth system? (I mean RTSs: the best unit usually is NOT that great as a tier 7 and its training time is huge and fair)
I've expected you to dislike my idea (all of you) because you're used to HoMM style
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted March 20, 2007 03:04 PM |
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Well I agree with ZombieLord (for "all-creatures" reasons).
Do you think that right now it's better than "using only tier 1s and tier 2s"? I don't think so.
Everyone complains about having the "same" "dominating" creature stacks (tier 1s and 2s) on the battlefield with the fair growth system, as Zombielord named it.
But now it's the opposite: I complain about having the "same" "dominating" creature stacks (tier 6s and tier 7s) on the battlefield with the unfair growth system.
Where am I getting at? Simply, you guys all love high level creatures. Who ever uses Assasins? Who ever likes Pixies and Sprites as their "awesome" power? Or Conscripts? No one.
With ZombieLord's fair idea it will become the opposite way --> less tier 7s, 6s and 5s.. so what?
I'm tired of the high-tier creatures' dominancy on the battlefield, really
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 20, 2007 03:13 PM |
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Quote:
Where am I getting at? Simply, you guys all love high level creatures. Who ever uses Assasins? Who ever likes Pixies and Sprites as their "awesome" power? Or Conscripts? No one.
Well, personally, that's the natural evolution of the game: In early game, you use the week units for creeping, in late game, you use the powerful units to take out the enemy. That's what makes the evolution through the game, and if you had nothing to work towards in the form of better and stronger units (overall), why bother upgrading?
Not to mention the fact that the game wouldn't work, if all levels of units were of the same strength. How much early-game play would there be, if you could recruit Black Dragons on day 2? The whole concept of wandering units on the map would also fall apart - what would be the idea of level 1's guarding the Ore Mine and level 7's guarding the Relic Artifacts, if they were of same strength? What about Dragon Utopias? That's why the Assassin has to be weeker than the Dragon.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 20, 2007 03:13 PM |
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Oh come on, 40 conscripts being equal to 2 black dragons? It's ridiculous! 40 fat wimpy men against two immensly powerful fire-breathing monsters and the wimpy men can win because some d*ck on a horse called knight leads them and the +3 att/def decides? oh, please.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 20, 2007 03:15 PM |
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Don't need to turn this into a 'fight'
I knew my idea 'sucks' for you
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted March 20, 2007 03:22 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 15:25, 20 Mar 2007.
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Quote:
Oh come on, 40 conscripts being equal to 2 black dragons? It's ridiculous! 40 fat wimpy men against two immensly powerful fire-breathing monsters and the wimpy men can win because some d*ck on a horse called knight leads them and the +3 att/def decides? oh, please.
No no you don't get it.
It's not 40 conscripts. It's more like a "fair" growth.
40 conscripts cost just 1200 gold, so of course they're weaker.
However you can increase this growth (not with a single peasant dwelling, but with more). However this is LIMITED to the stupid map maker's wish (i.e "external" dwellings).. in my multiple dwellings idea, you can BUILD it several times.
So you can have around 300 Conscripts per week (which are almost as 2 Black Dragons). Fair enough? I think so..
Btw I don't like the fat wimpy pigs, but neither the supreme tier 7s.. bleah, I'm usually into tier 2s and tier 3s, and when discussing strategy, they're simply too weak to hold any useful abilities (even if they have "awesome" abilities, you have too few of them). With some exceptions.
EDIT: alcibiades, you will evolve in the town even with the fair growth. But evolving does not mean "mutating your creatures to high-level ones".. As it is now, it's relatively like that, because you end up with "useless" low levels, and dominating high levels.. Why not evolve with BOTH creatures (i.e you need both of them). The low levels seriously need a boost in growth, NOT instantly, but somehow with multiple dwellings or anything.. but something at least!
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 20, 2007 08:26 PM |
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Edited by executor at 20:27, 20 Mar 2007.
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As Zombie Lord said, this would be no HoMM anymore, if we balanced the tiers. And that's one of the reasons why we (nearly)all LOVE HoMM for: that dragons, angels, titans and devils are relevant in lategame, not fat peasants .
RTS are other kind of games. It's well accepted there that (StarCraft example) Hydralisks are best units in the game, by 1v1 being among weak ones. And I like that in RTS. NEVER WOULD STAND THAT IN HOMM.
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted March 22, 2007 11:59 AM |
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Quote:
NEVER WOULD STAND THAT IN HOMM.
Why?
what's so special about "turn-based" in that it has to do with the creatures being recruited (i.e tier7 supremacy).. and no I hate level 7s mostly 
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 22, 2007 12:12 PM |
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there is no lvl7 supremacy.. level7 units are rather wimpy (exception: emerald dragons)
The game is obviously around level 5-6 units.
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 22, 2007 02:38 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
NEVER WOULD STAND THAT IN HOMM.
Why?
what's so special about "turn-based" in that it has to do with the creatures being recruited (i.e tier7 supremacy).. and no I hate level 7s mostly
It's not about turns or no turns. It's about HoMM. High tiers always dominated the gameplay sooner or later in EVERY HoMM released (try HoMM 1 or 2 - now that's domination). I think that this shouldn't be changed. And I also think that if such thing would be introduced (multiple dwelling/balancing between tiers), Heroes would lose majority of it's fans. Really.
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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