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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Renegades Review+Tactics
Thread: Renegades Review+Tactics This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted April 08, 2007 12:31 PM
Edited by GenieLord at 15:20, 09 Apr 2007.

Quote:
Good work GLord, interesting and tidy.

Only 1 important note, the Large Shield ability is mistake. The Vindicator hasn't it. I have checked the hard coded codes in Heroes 5, it's a bug. You can see that it's written, but the creature hasn't it...


Thanks.

The Vindicator has 'Large Shield' ability in my game and in Elvin's game.
Many people have just said he has this ability.

Anyway, I'm going to play HoF now, so I'll do a final check.
Edit: Checked, he has the ability.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 08, 2007 01:07 PM

He has - the damage the shooters do to vindicators are pathetic. I see no other reason than big shield ;p

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted April 08, 2007 01:49 PM

He has the ability.
It isn't written when you right-click on creature, but you'll find it if you get into the creature's profile.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 08, 2007 02:22 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 14:23, 08 Apr 2007.

Ah yes, since the topic is about renegades.. let's do some fantasy, guys!


Let's say that in the 2nd expansion, you can choose between normal and renegade unit. (you probably won't be able to, but who cares ;P).

Let's say you've got irina and you're going for battle griffins only, against a might hero. Somehow, you've managed to get more griffins than usual (external dwellings, diplomacy etc.).

Let's say you have divine strength, righteous might, endurance and ressurection spells with expert light magic and guardian angel.

Finally, your enemy is not a mage.

What can we see here, then? A powerful stack that does 1,5 times his previous damage every retaliation, with endless retaliation, buffed to oblivion, defending each turn for extra DEF, and ressurected every turn. Soon enough, it will OHKO every melee stack that attacks it with a simple retaliation!! Joy

And now, let's say Irina has got dark magic too, and vampirism spell No, that's too scary.

How does that sound?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted April 08, 2007 02:37 PM

Good enough to make my day! Of course expert defense is obligatory!
____________
You are truly a monster, Blizz. Truly
-Gnomes2169

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VokialBG
VokialBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted April 08, 2007 02:43 PM

WoW, hmmmm how about Deep Hydra, 6 enemies around the creature and casted Vampirism
____________

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted April 08, 2007 02:49 PM

Could work but they are still vulnerable...
____________
You are truly a monster, Blizz. Truly
-Gnomes2169

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 08, 2007 02:54 PM

Than what about Laszlo+Vindicators+same spells as for battle griffins+haste+TRAINING ABUSED TO MAXIMUM? Getting huge number of griffs is not so easy: upgrading peasants and archers is cheap and easy.

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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted April 08, 2007 03:57 PM

How about Klaus, vampirism and champions...

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 08, 2007 04:00 PM

hey, haven hero+paladins+training+vampirism spell seems RIDICULOUS anyway

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted April 09, 2007 02:04 PM
Edited by ThE_HyDrA at 14:05, 09 Apr 2007.

Good work here guys! Pretty comprehensive reviews. Seeing as AoH is lacking the comments of the other towns (Fortress will be coming, too), I'd like to post my comments here, so that you can critique them before they go up on the site. If I've missed something glaringly obvious, or perhaps you'd like to add in your own point, now is your chance.

A group of rebels that have managed to distance themselves from the mainstream Haven aligment, known as the Renegades, have  managed to hone their attacking capabilities while compromising their defensive ones. The formation of the Renegades sees a  few common names return from previous series, such as Crossbowman and Zealot, and also the birth of a Life-Draining level 7  creature.

Enforcer
The Enforcer combines the strengths of both its contemporaries (the Peasant - Taxpayer, and the Conscript - Bash), along with  the Conscript's stats +1 attack. They're mainly defensive units due to their low Initiative and Speed, but try to maximise  their Bash ability by either Soldier's Luck or splitting the stacks up.

Crossbowman
The 2-8 damage range of the Crossbowman makes it a prime candidate for the use of Divine Strength. Considering the no-range  penalty, the Crossbowman will always be able to deal maximum damage. However, Precise Shot is lost, and therefore it's not as  effective as the Marksman at targeting enemies closer than 3 tiles away.

Vindicator
Despite the Vindicator's lower defense skill (8 vs 9), it is more effective in offensively-minded tactics via its extra 3  attack. This is consolidated by the Cleave ability, encouraging attacks on stacks in which it has a chance of killing at  least 1 creature. Unfortunately its Speed and Initiative are well below par, therefore needing at least the Haste spell to  unleash its power swiftly.

Battle Griffin
The most notable loss here is that of 'Battle Dive', instantly making the Battle Griffin a defensive creature, along with its  loss of 3 attack (compensated with 12 defense). Coupled with it's new ability, Battle Frenzy, which works in tandem with  Unlimited Retaliation, the Battle Griffin is certainly a creature that will be targeted with spells and hero attack, hence  the need to use spells such as Magical Immunity. Though it still possesses its excellent Initiative, unfortunately this can  be a hindrance, as Battle Frenzy's multiplier is reset with every action. The large damage range may also necessitate the use  of Divine Strength.

Zealot
Zealots are much more attack-oriented than their more conservative kinsmen, the Inquisitors, evidenced by their higher attack  (20 vs 16) and lower defense (14 vs 16). However, the main coup is the acquisition of Blindness, and the casting of Righteous  Might at Expert level for the loss of Haste, Divine Strength, and Endurance, which are themselves spells which play right  into the hands of the Haven army. This is a double-edged sword, as now the hero will have to revert to casting more menial  spells such as Haste and Divine Strength. However the Zealot's potential through Blindness can be optimised by splitting.

Champion
Unlike the other Renegades, the Champions have inferior attack and defense stats, losing 4 in the latter. What they do gain  is an added 5 to their upper damage limit, increasing their range, and again making them suited to Divine Strength. The major  change however, is the Champion Charge, which replaces Lay Hands, another effect that saves the hero having to cast a spell  with a similar effect. On its own merits, Champion Charge functions better with the Jousting bonus, (as the damage dealt then  carries on to the next stack) and is again a more offensive alternative.

Fallen Angel
The Fallen Angel also boasts fewer attack/defense points (35/31 vs 25/31), again making the Renegade unit more attack-based.  The main difference is the huge damage range, 25-75 vs 50 (once again taken care of by Divine Strength), and the replacement  of Resurrect Allies by Life Drain. Life Drain is an side-effect of the Fallen Angel's attack, and is not limited to being  used once per combat, injecting life back into one of the Renegades' main spearheads (maximised by 75 damage per Fallen  Angel). However, its (minor) drawbacks are that it cannot be used against the undead, mechanical, elementals and all life  drained goes to the Fallen Angel. Despite this, Life Drain is undoubtedly the more favourable ability.

Renegades Analysis
Walker: 3
Shooter: 2
Flyer: 2
Spellcaster/-: 1

Total Orientation: Undoubtedly attack-minded creatures, characterised by their large damage-ranges and attack-friendly  abilities and statistics. Luck and en-masse Bless spells are the hero's most useful tools, where the low initiative of some  units must be compensated for. The spread is the same as that of Haven, and, but for some small deficiencies, the Renegade  line-up is generally superior.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted April 09, 2007 03:17 PM
Edited by GenieLord at 15:34, 09 Apr 2007.

Sound like good (and comprehensive) summations about each creature. Good job.
Are these the ones you are going to put in the infromation pages of AoH, on the paragraph "Comments"?
However, they are very similar to those I wrote.

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dschingi
dschingi


Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
posted April 09, 2007 04:18 PM

Nice comments @ThE_HyDrA
However, are you sure about this: "They're mainly defensive units due to their low Initiative and Speed, but try to maximise  their Bash ability by either Soldier's Luck or splitting the stacks up."

Afaik splitting the stack also reduces the chance of Bash to trigger...
____________
open source for an open mind

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted April 11, 2007 04:37 AM
Edited by ThE_HyDrA at 07:56, 11 Apr 2007.

Thanks guys.

"However, they are very similar to those I wrote."

They are bound to be similar as we are speaking about the same creatures. Either way, you had some good points but also some that were apparent and general and needed to be included.

Yes, these are the comments that go on the AoH pages.

"Afaik splitting the stack also reduces the chance of Bash to trigger... "

I had done some testing on that matter previously, and I found (not conclusively mind you) that there were more chances of Bash occurring per battle with split stacks simply due to their number. However, I consulted the manual after I saw your comment, and it so happens that the formula:

"If TotalHP > TotalTargetHP, then
Chance = 25% + 3% * (TotalHP / TotalTargetHP)

If TotalHP ≤ TotalTargetHP, then
Chance = 25% - 3% * (TotalTargetHP / TotalHP)
where:
TotalHP is the total Hit Points amount of the stack with the ability.
TotalTargetHP is the total Hit Points amount of the target stack.
The chance is clipped in the [5%;75%] interval."

Does indeed favour the units being kept together in the same stack, but it really ultimately depends on if the split stacks have more HP than their targets, and if the chance of Bash occurring is greater whether you maximise the chance for 1 unit, or have a decent chance for 3 units, for example. This is difficult to calculate, and really depends on the specific situation that you would have to weigh up prior to the battle. Seeing as the benefit is not always discernible either way, I'll take that comment out of the description.

Concerning other comments:

Elvin:
"As for tactics it's pretty much an all-out assault. Nothing keeps the vindicators back now that they can take part in the battle and the griffins are forced to go melee as well. The champions will try to score a double hit and the angels will attack as well leaving the crossbowmen for ranged and the zealots for blinding. That's an awesome combo with leadership, mass haste and luck to increase their damage output even more."

It needs to be. The ranged power of the renegades isn't substantial enough to be able to provide a main course of attack from the backlines, and the attack and defense values of the units are distributed as such that the units are going to get mowed down if they don't advance. Concerning their abilities, melee combat is one of their strong points, where abilities like unlimited retaliation, bash and cleave are effective. Zealots are also now more focused on the dark side of magic than their light counterparts, and blinding is definitely useful or immobilising an enemy shooter until the units can reach them or otherwise. The Hero would be well advised to fight with Light Magic, and have skills such as Luck (Soldier's Luck) and Attack (Archery, Power of Speed, Tactics).

"The only units I do not consider imba are the griffins and vindicators here though they are not too bad off-the vindicator still has big shield! "

Surely the Enforcers aren't imbalanced. Vindicators I would say are imbalanced if they have Haste cast on them, but as they are, maybe just on the bubble. I would actually have Imperial Griffins over Battle Griffins solely due to Battle Dive and their higher attack.

Edit: In response to PhoenixReborn, yes, same growth rates considered.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.

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PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted April 11, 2007 05:15 AM

Are we assuming equal growth rates to the current haven line up?
____________
Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 11, 2007 10:39 AM

yup

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