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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Is War Machines (the skill) overpowered?
Thread: Is War Machines (the skill) overpowered? This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 17, 2007 01:05 PM

Is War Machines (the skill) overpowered?

In light of all the recent discussions on creeping capabilities of the different factions, I would like to know you guys oppinion on this subject. Just a quick review here of some of what the War Machines skill offers (all this is in the manual).

Ballista
With Expert War Machines, the Ballista will have 550 HP, Attack and Defence of 15, and do 5 x (Attack + Knowledge) Damage. With the Ballista skill, the HP are further doubled to 1100 HP, it gains double shot (for 10 x (Attack + Knowledge) total damage), and is automatically resurrected after combat (free of charge).

Let's try to evaluate the power of the Ballista in early game. Let's imagine a Hero that starts out with the War Machines skill, and levels up in this skill through level 1 - 5. Let's furthermore assume a bit conservatively that the Hero will have 45 % of his stats growth in Attack and Knowledge (Necropolis is the only class with lower probablybility, only 25 %). Furthermore, the Hero starts out with 5 stat points at level 1, one of which is always Knowledge. The Hero will therefore have a total of 9 stat points from his levels (+ possibly from visiting map objects), and let's assume that 5 of these (1 + 8*45 %) have gone into Attack and Knowledge.

At level 5, the Hero can therefore have a Ballista with Attack and Defence of 15, 1100 HP, that does 50 Damage on each attack. Purchasing the Ballista will cost the Hero 1500-4500 Gold depending on class.

First Aid Tent
With Expert War Machines the First Aid Tent has 400 HP and heals 100 HP each round plus removes Dark Magic spells of level 1-3. With the First Aid ability it doubles the HP to 800 and furthermore gains the Resurrection ability. The tent costs the player 500-1500 Gold.




What I get from this is that you can potentially very early in the game, and at a very low expence of gold, get access to a killing machine that will stand almost any assault and be able to dash out fair amounts of damage; and to a healing unit, that will be able to not only cleanse most curses but also Resurrect what is in early game a considerable amount of HP without any of the requirements or heave ressource demands it normally takes to get the Resurrection spell.

Amd I making too much of this, or is the War Machines skill in fact overpowered? I think it must be, considering how everybody rave about creeping with Heroes like Deleb, Vittorio and Havez - but what should be done to make it more reasonable?
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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted April 17, 2007 01:10 PM

I don't think is overpowered because it may be good at early game but it sucks at late game. That's how this skill works; it can't be balanced at early game because it would be underpowered.

Deleb is just imbalanced because:
a) most other demon lords suck
b) her speciality is not fair: at level 1 she should damage only 20 with the Fireball because she has 0 Spellpower, but noooo, she does 40! waay to go Nival!
c) damn rushes

So War Machines may be overpowered, yes, but only in early game. In late game is underpowered. It's quite the opposite of Sylvan

Anyway, I don't like this skill being like this. It is imbalanced because it can either be over- or underpowered and this sucks

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 17, 2007 01:21 PM

Ehm ok, maybe I should have phrased it otherwise, then:

Is War Machines imballanced, and is there a way it could be more ballanced (early/late game wise)?
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 17, 2007 01:52 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 14:41, 17 Apr 2007.

I think they should be nerfed a bit because they give too much of advantage over other heroes. Imagine going random heroes and one player gets one of war machines experts and other get some other crappy hero. Meaning of a word "rush" has changed a little lately since there are no real obstacles (beside distance) that prevent early attack if you get one of those heroes.  

Even fighting on week 4 or 5 war machines are still very powerful if commanded by a specialist or any demonlord.

Edit im sorry i must limit number of my posts so ill edit this one. . In my post i was referring to tournament play where you play 1 vs 1 games.
Tent is worse than ballista ,true, but it doesn't suck. Besides, you cant say that tent is weak because it weak in endgame. This is completely wrong. Its Power lays in ultra fast no casulaties creeping and it is VERY important part of a game. So the overall value of tent is HUGE. Yeah i think that tent is ok. Ballista is a little bit too powerful id say. The Very good start with war machines should be compensated by their lesser usefulness in the endgame and Academys and Demon lords ballistas (and Vittorios) are too powerful in endgame. I can understand that demonlords weak performance overall may be the reason to boos up ballista for them but i cant find the explanation for Academy and vittorio.
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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted April 17, 2007 01:54 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 13:56, 17 Apr 2007.

Quote:
I think they should be nerved a bit because they give too much of advantage over other heroes. Imagine going random heroes and one player gets one of war machines experts and other get some other crappy hero. Meaning of a word "rush" has changed a little lately since there are no real obstacles (beside distance) that prevent early attack if you get one of those heroes.

Even fighting on week 4 or 5 war machines are still very powerful if commanded by a specialist or any demonlord.

There are obstacles: if you play a map with more than 2 players active, when you rush a player, you risk at being conquered by the other one.

And there are longer games, you know.

And hmm.. by War Machines you mean Ballista right? 'cuz the Tent sucks

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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted April 17, 2007 02:07 PM

tent do not sucks at all, it dispells various curses and probably poison if I remember well

a lay heands without wasting creatures attack


but without dispelling it sucks complete

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted April 17, 2007 02:10 PM

Quote:
a lay heands without wasting creatures attack

Tent can't dispel >= level 4 spells, Lay Hands can.

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted April 17, 2007 02:20 PM

Quote:
Tent is worse than ballista ,true, but it doesn't suck. Besides, you cant say that tent is weak because it weak in endgame. This is completely wrong. Its Power lays in ultra fast no casulaties creeping and it is VERY important part of a game. So the overall value of tent is HUGE.

I completely agree with you. I'm not saying Tent sucks completely, but it is clearly not overpowered. It may give you a good advantage in creeping, but it's weak in end game.
I was reffering to those that say the Tent is overpowered because it gives you an unfair advantage in creeping. Well, it really gives you, but it is not unfair, because in end game it doesn't do much.

So here's what I was trying to say:
1) Tent sucks in end game
2) Tent is overpowered at creeping
=> Tent is balanced

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Sanyu
Sanyu


Known Hero
posted April 17, 2007 02:38 PM

War machine is totally overpowered!!!
I hate this skill, and if I can recall, half the matches I lost were due to the player choosing a hero specialised in War machines. On unspecialised hero, however, it is decent.

Quite a big difference from H3, when war machines was a totally crappy and useless skill.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 17, 2007 02:41 PM

Quote:
So here's what I was trying to say:
1) Tent sucks in end game
2) Tent is overpowered at creeping
=> Tent is balanced


Omg I cannot believe you said that. Are you a Nival employee in disguise? That's so much their way of thinking - we have something that's underpowered/overpowered, so let's add another feature that's overpowered/underpowered, and they'll probably balance out in the great picture.

Is there somehow to make Tend more ballanced - such as letting the Healing Power be proportional to some property (suggestion: Healing = 5 x (Defence + Spell Power), as a reflection of the Ballista damage), or possibly other modifications?
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 17, 2007 02:46 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 14:47, 17 Apr 2007.

Quote:
Omg I cannot believe you said that. Are you a Nival employee in disguise? That's so much their way of thinking - we have something that's underpowered/overpowered, so let's add another feature that's overpowered/underpowered, and they'll probably balance out in the great picture.



Hehe thats a good one. The only problem is this that some ballistas fit just to "overpowered" part and there is no "underpowered" to balance things out even.
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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted April 17, 2007 02:46 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 14:47, 17 Apr 2007.

Quote:
Omg I cannot believe you said that. Are you a Nival employee in disguise? That's so much their way of thinking - we have something that's underpowered/overpowered, so let's add another feature that's overpowered/underpowered, and they'll probably balance out in the great picture.

I'm so sorry I said 'balanced'. I didn't find a proper word for, let's say, medium-power?

No, the Tent is IMBALANCED, but has a medium power, not overpowered nor underpowered.

Again, sorry for that
(btw, I really said in the first post I hate the skill is like this: overpowered in early game (creeps) and underpowered in late game - well, at least for the tent it is like this)

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 17, 2007 03:11 PM

You're forgiven, then.

But seriously, how would it be if Tent had it's healing capacity based on the Heroes stats instead of just one flat number? It tent healed 5 x (Defence + Spell Power), then in early game, it would be able to heal perhaps 25 - 50 HP, which is handy but no life-saver, and in late game it might be able to heal perhaps 100-150 HP. Or would that still make tent worthless in late game - or during entire game? Maybe the problem lies in the fact that the resurrection ability comes so easy to the tent ... what if the Healing capacity in terms of HP were raised, but a cap was put on as to the number of creatures the Tent could maximally resurrect, something like:

Healing power: 10 x (Defence + Spell Power)
Max Resurrected creatures = Hero level (or some other counter, but it would be fairly crucial that this one was equal between the classes).

Thus, in early game, tent would allow you to resurrect only a few creatures, which could still be usefull - getting a couple of, say, Griffins or Vampires back in early game is pretty worthwhile - and in late game, it would also be usefull, because the higher healing capacity would allow you to resurrect high-level units - not by the lot, but maybe two or three at a go. The general effect would be to shift the tent use towards highest level units (because that is where you'll get the most of the resurrection cap), which I think is fine, because that means creeping will not be free with low-level units, and it will also be useful in late game (getting back 1 or maybe even 2 Archangels from the tent would sure be nice).
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ChaosDragon
ChaosDragon


Famous Hero
posted April 17, 2007 03:15 PM

I'm fine with war machines. I think they don't need any change.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 17, 2007 03:17 PM

Quote:
Omg I cannot believe you said that. Are you a Nival employee in disguise?


All fear Nival's undercover agents.

Geez I can't stop laughin'

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted April 17, 2007 03:20 PM

Quote:
Healing power: 10 x (Defence + Spell Power)
Max Resurrected creatures = Hero level (or some other counter, but it would be fairly crucial that this one was equal between the classes).

Nice idea Alc That is a good starting point

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 17, 2007 03:25 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 15:28, 17 Apr 2007.

He he, I think my reaction was something like this (around 40 seconds into the vid).
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TemjinGold
TemjinGold


Known Hero
posted April 17, 2007 04:07 PM

How about either removing the limit on number of shots (for expert WM) or making it a mass effect?

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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted April 17, 2007 04:15 PM

Hmm... Am I right if the Ammo cart contribute to att of ranged units? And if i'm right, how much is this number? because i've always wondered...
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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted April 17, 2007 04:15 PM

It's +1 Attack for every mastery of the War Machines skill. Not really much

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