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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Does anyone else like a new retreat system?
Thread: Does anyone else like a new retreat system? This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
vorticity
vorticity

Tavern Dweller
posted April 20, 2007 03:20 PM

Does anyone else like a new retreat system?

hello,

i'm new to this forum, been playng heroes for a couple of years, but not as hardcore as some of other guys out there.

But all the hero games are pretty much one final battle kinda of things? So i'm thinking that nival should change the system a bit to allow for 2nd chances. like maybe have a flee command or something, that allows the hero to retreat with his troops. but give the all the creatures in the opposing army to have a free strike at a random troops before the opponent retreats. to prevent abuse, maybe if u lose all your creatues due to the free strike, u lose ur hero as well.

but really, if ur hero retreats, what do your creatures really do? sit around wait for the enemy to slaughter u? not realistic right? and its unfair that the attacking hero misses out all the exp from killing those troops.

just my 2 cents!
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 20, 2007 03:33 PM

so if the opponent catches you on creeping, with the system you've proposed you can leave the game.. since most players creep with tiny force, so it will get destroyed anyway..

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vorticity
vorticity

Tavern Dweller
posted April 20, 2007 03:37 PM

ahhh, no.

Then u would choose to retreat, rather then flee. haha, sorry i din make it clear. retreat allows ur hero alone to flee. but 'flee' plays a risk since your hero might get wiped out before he gets the chance to retreat. like a fighting retreat you see.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted April 20, 2007 05:31 PM

Is this to abuse hit'n'run even more?
sorry can you elaborate it, I probably did not understand it well

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted April 20, 2007 05:34 PM

I would like to have an option to flee at the tactics phase, BEFORE the battle. Sometimes you just get trashed away before you have a chance to move

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vorticity
vorticity

Tavern Dweller
posted April 20, 2007 06:06 PM

well, actually to make things clearer, games between real life players often end in one battle. Your hero's main against the enemy's main hero. But sometimes this battle occurs in the most ill moment, when your hero has tons of great spells yet not the mana to cast them i.e. or u have sizeable force of creatures somewhere else that you have yet to combine with.

the bad things come when you cannot surrender cause you will lose anyway if your opponent abuses the large sum of money you pay him or you just do not have that gold (training!!). which leaves staying to fight and retreating at the last moment. That usually sucks cause you will end up giving him exp and then letting him kill so many of your troops for nothing except to squeeze a last bit of use out of them. (maybe kill a few more cerebus or casting one more implosion)

so i am wondering if there are people out there who would like this idea:

retreat: the one u already have. lose all your troops, buy hero back at tarvern.

surrender: ahhh.. pay, buy hero back at tarven. u already knw this.

flee: (this is the new one i propose) retreat with troops intact on hero, however u lose a proportional amount of troops due to the enemy smacking your backside as u flee. each stack of the enemy gets a free stirke at a random stack of your troops (w/o retaliation of course). then u have to buy your hero back at tavern again. however, the risk comes when all ur troops die because of the free strike by the enemy while u flee. then you will lose your hero permanently.

Hopefully, this would save players from losing cause of a surprise attack before being ready. thus, making for a much more interesting final battle. or when u discover the wicked tactic your opponent is using on the battlefield, and manage to flee, u can still work out counter stragedies with a much better chance of survival since you will at least have more troops when you challenge him next time.
Also its more realistic, i mean the entire army staying behind to fight while the heros escapes? geez. can i have one more dear archangel fly with my hero while the rest of the few hundred marksman or squires buy mi a bit of time? proportional loss, i say, not the entire army!!  
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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted April 20, 2007 06:09 PM

You have some good points there

But I would exchange the names of retreat/flee

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted April 20, 2007 06:10 PM

That would still make hit'n'run more abused.

A good solution I find here is to allow this option only in the Tactics phase, as ZombieLord put it (great idea btw ), this way you won't be able to strike a spell and then run.

btw you can still flee when you have 1 imp holding you back against 10000000 Devils

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted April 20, 2007 06:14 PM

You see, that's the problem TheDeath. And no, this will (on the contrary) get rid of some hit'n'run tactics.

Imagine this:
you have only 5 stacks of 1 peasant and you 'retreat'. The enemy will get a chance to strike at your creatures as the OP said, thus you will most probably lose the hero (because 5 peasants are easy to kill).

now, if you have a much bigger army but you retreat ('cuz you'll get trashed), you will have a chance to resist the enemy's strikes so that you will get back to your castle.


The result? This will get RID of hit'n'run because with a low army you won't be able to flee successfully, but with a large army you will. This is much more logical and better IMO.
however, you have to disable the current flee option which is dumb anyway

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted April 20, 2007 06:17 PM

Aha

then I'm all for it

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 20, 2007 06:21 PM

Quote:
flee: (this is the new one i propose) retreat with troops intact on hero, however u lose a proportional amount of troops due to the enemy smacking your backside as u flee. each stack of the enemy gets a free stirke at a random stack of your troops (w/o retaliation of course). then u have to buy your hero back at tavern again. however, the risk comes when all ur troops die because of the free strike by the enemy while u flee. then you will lose your hero permanently.


You really dont want to take any hit from heaven/sylvan army. This often proves to be fatal lol.
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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted April 20, 2007 06:27 PM

Then what about taking hits from the hero as well? (2k Implosion)

These 'hits' can be only 50% or something btw

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vorticity
vorticity

Tavern Dweller
posted April 20, 2007 06:28 PM

haha, if all of your troops are going to be OHKO, then u should surrender, or just retreat, or if thats your best army already, then i seriously pity you.

my flee is just a subsitute for retreating only the main hero so u end up with more troops in tarven and a better fighting 2nd chance. otherwise, with the current system, its hard to fight back. i dun kow, has anyone of you ever fought back from losing a semi major battle??
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 20, 2007 06:35 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 18:39, 20 Apr 2007.

Stlll , this solution isn't any good, because:
When you both have lots of troops the retreating side will have too many loses. When you have few creatures you wont be able to retreat at all.

I think that current system is alright although i think that retreating should be more restricted. Like lets say , escaping hero loses a random artifact. Or he cant move next turn after he is bought in the castle. This solution would prevent abusing hit and runs because attacker would have time to catch the hero in his castle where he must fight for his life.

Quote:
or if thats your best army already, then i seriously pity you.



You really sound like you haven't played much this game, Heaven units often kill everything on the battlefield with one swing.

Quote:
has anyone of you ever fought back from losing a semi major battle??  


Its common practise for warlocks.
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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted April 20, 2007 06:48 PM

Quote:
When you both have lots of troops the retreating side will have too many loses. When you have few creatures you wont be able to retreat at all.

If you managed to weaken the enemy enough you will be able to retreat even with a few of troops. If not, then it means the enemy is too powerful and you should not even consider fighting him, but rather retreat immediately even if you lose most of your troops.

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vorticity
vorticity

Tavern Dweller
posted April 20, 2007 06:59 PM
Edited by vorticity at 19:04, 20 Apr 2007.

Quote:
I think that current system is alright although i think that retreating should be more restricted. Like lets say , escaping hero loses a random artifact. Or he cant move next turn after he is bought in the castle. This solution would prevent abusing hit and runs because attacker would have time to catch the hero in his castle where he must fight for his life..


losing artifacts? hmmm... but cant move on the next turn is kinda decapacitating.

Quote:
You really sound like you haven't played much this game, Heaven units often kill everything on the battlefield with one swing.


been playing hotseats only, and with friends, have no tournament experience, haven been up against some really skilled players, u would pardon mi. anyway, the key thing is that your high level troops will have a more chance of surviving when u flee, that, vs having nothing. which do u prefer? while haven troops are gd, if his 1 to 7 tier troops do 1 hit on each of your seven troops and kill them all with one hit at RANDOM. i really think thats bad for u.

Quote:
Its common practise for warlocks.

yup, i suppose,but its really pretty hard if u dun reply on magic that much.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 20, 2007 07:48 PM

I'm really not sure I see any point in having this. Maybe I'm just conservative, but if the enemy catches you on a bad footing, sorry, but I think that's part of the game.

Furthermore, I see the following situations:

Enemy > You in terms of army strength: Fleeing will not do you any good, because you are going to be either wiped out or decimated (= retreat)

Enemy = You: Fleeing will mean you'll miss most of your army anyway to his attacks, so why bother? Better stay and take some of his down, and then retreat.

Enemy < You: Duh ... Why not just eliminate him.

I know this is a simplification, but I don't see much reason for this feature.
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What will happen now?

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted April 20, 2007 07:53 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 19:54, 20 Apr 2007.

Well, at least the fleeing before battle I suggested is something important sometimes, isn't it?

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ChaosDragon
ChaosDragon


Famous Hero
posted April 20, 2007 08:02 PM
Edited by ChaosDragon at 20:08, 20 Apr 2007.

How about limiting retreat? after the third retreat, retreat will make the retreating hero must stay 1 week in his/her town. Or, retreating has a chance to be jailed in enemy town (like in heroes 4), however, to free this hero, owner of the jailed hero doesn't need to capture his/her enemy town, instead he/she must pay a tribute. Maybe we can make hero's army as the chance modifier or anything else, ex: by the army, the smaller his/her army > the bigger his/her chance to be jailed.  

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted April 20, 2007 08:08 PM

@alci

the main idea is not only army, but hero as well. If you do not have mana, and need it, losing half of your army might still be better than fighting without mana. And you can still win without destructive if you know which units to take with you to possibly counter the enemy's army.

I cannot find any holes or abuses into this technique (contrary to the well-known current flee implementation ), but maybe I'm wrong. Still if I'm not, then it's, at least for me, a much better improved fleeing system.

@ChaosDragon:

We could make it more realistic by applying some penalties to the hero after retreating. For example, the further he is to the castle, the later he'll appear in the tavern for rehire. Or he could move through the adventure map (with extra movement points as he is fleeing, so that no matter how many logistics the enemy has, the fleeing hero will still be faster) and come back to castle.

I just hate it when it gets teleported back at the castle, ready to come out again.

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