Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Determining which units should start first...
Thread: Determining which units should start first...
PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted May 03, 2007 04:50 PM

Determining which units should start first...

This post by sdfx

Quote:
All the most frustating things in this game have 1 common denominator: randomness
1. ATB mess
Can be a true disaster: Emeralds before Nightmares, Paladins before Emeralds, Grim Raiders before Paladins... and many other.



Got me thinking.  The old way, Phoenixes (H2) or Archangels (H3) and mass haste allowed your units to go first always...if you were the attacker.

To me that's just as imbalanced as the current randomness.  Would you like this H5 system better if they stratified the starting turn by initiative?

Bypassing this system leads to a discussion of simultaneous retalitaion which I found frustrating in heroes iv.

Take it away!
____________
Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Lesij
Lesij


Famous Hero
posted May 03, 2007 04:53 PM

I think battles with random turns are more realistic. Army, which is tired after long march isn't as ready as monsters which were occupying that area for some time and maybe even put up a small camp...
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted May 03, 2007 04:55 PM
Edited by Elvin at 16:57, 03 May 2007.

I am not sure about simultaneous retaliation, while it was more fair I never really liked it. All the atb chaos would be fixed if the starting atb value was up to 5%. Not always a bonus for the attacker so the only problem would be between units of the same initiative.

I am also glad that the hero has a turn of his own to cast, an expert haste/prayer with castle was imba as hell.
____________
Juoksentelisinkohan?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted May 03, 2007 04:59 PM

I think the old system was better...! This system is unreliable and annoying against neutrals, and some very close battles are decided by atb randomness!
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Sanyu
Sanyu


Known Hero
posted May 03, 2007 05:05 PM

H5 ATB system is better; duh. In H3, the only benefit from having high speed was that you get to start first and nothing else. Here, you see some tough creatures grounded down by their pathetic initiative which is good. Just need a change in the ATB random starting value to something lower.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted May 03, 2007 05:29 PM

Personally, I would vouch for a model where Defenders always have ATB = 0 and Attackers have ATB of 0.1 (or some other moderate number). This will give Attacker the upper hand, which I think is fine, because you are making the initiative when you attack. It would also be more dependable than the current system.

Alternatively, one could keep the randomnes of the current system, but reduce the ATB value from 0.25 to 0.1 to reduce the amount of possible spread.
____________
What will happen now?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted May 03, 2007 05:34 PM

Quote:
This system is unreliable and annoying against neutrals, and some very close battles are decided by atb randomness!
So you want a no-brainer pattern to play this game vs neutrals in multiplayer?

I agree random ATB is bad (and I actually want to remove it completely), but neutrals should be unreliable to avoid repeating patterns.

By the way I like alcibiades' idea about the Attacker-has-first-strike or something

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted May 03, 2007 05:41 PM

Quote:
Quote:
This system is unreliable and annoying against neutrals, and some very close battles are decided by atb randomness!
So you want a no-brainer pattern to play this game vs neutrals in multiplayer?

I agree random ATB is bad (and I actually want to remove it completely), but neutrals should be unreliable to avoid repeating patterns.

By the way I like alcibiades' idea about the Attacker-has-first-strike or something


Well ... Alciabades system with attacker getting the first strike is the old H3 system , that's I want too ... So you are talking non-sense here.

I don't want a pattern vs. neutrals,  I just want to be able to estimate at which point of the battle the turn of my creatures are gonna get a turn... so I know how things stand and so I can plan a strategy.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted May 03, 2007 05:49 PM

I think that 0.25 is too much for a random factor, it should eventually give a init 10 unit a chance to act before a 11 init unit, but honestly, not emeralds faster then nightmares or such.. TT

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted May 03, 2007 06:20 PM

I think it's common sense that it should be something like: 0.01, 0.02.. up to 0.05. The attacker would get 0.6, 0.7.. up to 0.1. That's one option.
The other option would be to make it dependant on creatures' and/or hero's attributes. For example:
1.TotaL_stack_power*HP*speed*..somethingA/somethingB = ATB starting value
2.(Hero_knowledge+hero_attack)*luck*morale/something = ATB starting value
or make it dependable on both: hero's stats, so he gives a boost to all his creatures, AND creature's stats so that each stack gets some individual ATB boost.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 03, 2007 06:45 PM

I think atb randomness it good thing. It makes battles more interesting and less predictable. Sure, sometimes you can lose because you didnt act first whlie you had higher initiative, but as long as your opponent has slight chance for this to happen i'm fine with it. I wouldn't enjoy a set starting atb over and over again.

About getting bonuses., Im not sure is this a good thing. Usually its not attacker who attack first but victim , when attacker gets to opponents territory he cant see him and defender can place his hero in the way that he wouldn't be able to see him and attack first. I think atb should be the same for defender and attacker.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted May 04, 2007 03:15 PM

Just reduce it to a random value between 0 and 0.05 and that's it

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted May 04, 2007 06:37 PM

Quote:
Just reduce it to a random value between 0 and 0.05 and that's it


Can we change this in the game files?  I didn't see it in defaultstats.
____________
Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted May 04, 2007 06:39 PM

I checked through a lot of files but couldn't find this... it's either hard coded or I didn't check enough

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread »
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0382 seconds