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| Thread: ToH point sistem |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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cosmin
Known Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 06:48 AM |
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Edited by cosmin at 06:51, 22 May 2007.
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Quote:
From what you wrote all time Cosmin i'm understand "sistem not tolerate games from Lords/Emperor vs nobies because its cheap win and for this they not deserve reward". But my problem is SISTEM NOT TOLERATE GAMES WHEN WE HAVE SO LESS ACTIVE PLAYERS. I just want to change it because now its not right. If we have 100-200-300 active members, curent sistem will work very well...but now its not work.
Wel now you're talking!
Yes that is the thing to do. CHANGE THE ENTIRE SYSTEM.
Symply reinvent another one, based on current situation.
Adjusting the current one is just not possible or anyway to complicated (it requires lot of testing to get something as reliable as it is now).
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 07:03 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
From what you wrote all time Cosmin i'm understand "sistem not tolerate games from Lords/Emperor vs nobies because its cheap win and for this they not deserve reward". But my problem is SISTEM NOT TOLERATE GAMES WHEN WE HAVE SO LESS ACTIVE PLAYERS. I just want to change it because now its not right. If we have 100-200-300 active members, curent sistem will work very well...but now its not work.
Wel now you're talking!
Yes that is the thing to do. CHANGE THE ENTIRE SYSTEM.
Symply reinvent another one, based on current situation.
Adjusting the current one is just not possible or anyway to complicated (it requires lot of testing to get something as reliable as it is now).
cosmin: I love you
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 10:37 AM |
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Quote:
I am sure you're not idiot, but for sure you need to study some mathematics! lol
Hehe in fact , Cosim, i have been studying mathematics at the university for couple years, and i know few things about it too. You still dodge my questions, maybe you just dont want to admit its possible to do it this way, huh?
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 22, 2007 10:42 AM |
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I am not a very active player, but these complaints are not new. I followed them in H3 tourneys the last 3 years.
My opinion:
1. Of course the main goal should be to bring more and more new players to the game / tournament. How to do so?
1a. Create a system which gives the newbie a reason to play on. A system where he/she can achieve different goals and where he can learn more about those games and raise his skills.
1b. How can he raise his skills? By playing, playing, playing...especially vs good players.
2. Playing vs good players has 2 sites though. On one hand, u can learn a lot, on the other hand, you will lose a lot. Not every person has the patience to lose 15 games first before he gets his first win.
2a. Not every good player has the patience to play 15 games vs newbies, teach them some things, when there is no challenge or no "reward".
Now the question is, how to combine all these "problems" and find a way to solve them?
Some ideas:
- Newbies should be able to give out some kind of "good teacher/bad teacher" points, which could raise the honor ranking of the veteran pretty much.(Maybe make this feature possible after the first 5 reported games, so we can prevent 1-time players giving bad judges for fun)
- veterans should be abble to judge the improvement of a new player when he played them more often, which could raise (or give bonus points) the newbie's ranking points.(Or points to a seasonal given out "Most improved player of the season" reward)
Any opinions about that?
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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cosmin
Known Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 10:46 AM |
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Quote:
Hehe in fact , Cosim, i have been studying mathematics at the university, and i know few things about it too. You still dodge my questions, maybe you just dont want to admit its possible to do it this way, huh?
First: If you write someone's name, use copy/paste if you're memmory's to short.
Second: I have no ideea why you insist here, because everything has been said about this subject. More then that only Vesuvius can do, and anyway it is out of my power to do something about it. I had in mind only to help you understand what you're asking, because the way you ask it now won't help you ever!! (wait and you'll see ).
This thread is not for making conversation (at least I didn't took it this way), but to try and give some ideeas about what to do. Untill now, you've said same thing over and over, and my thought is you're doing it not because you care about the system, but you just like to exercise your writing skils.
Am I wrong? I hope I am...
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 10:57 AM |
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Haha im saying same thing over coz you didnt give me precise answer. I assume you wont so let it be i end this talk with you. Sorry bout the name, memorized it wrongly. For some reason i just dont think you are right saying that introducing this rule would require other changes in system. Im writing all this also because maybe there will be a person who has the idea how to do this without revolution. And perhaps he will be able to judge my formula, i still think its a good one.
Practise in writing is always helpful for non native speaker so i dont mind
I will repeat , formula for the im talking about is
Rn=Ro + max[30 +0.05*(D),5]
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cosmin
Known Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 11:08 AM |
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Quote:
Some ideas:
- Newbies should be able to give out some kind of "good teacher/bad teacher" points, which could raise the honor ranking of the veteran pretty much.(Maybe make this feature possible after the first 5 reported games, so we can prevent 1-time players giving bad judges for fun)
- veterans should be abble to judge the improvement of a new player when he played them more often, which could raise (or give bonus points) the newbie's ranking points.(Or points to a seasonal given out "Most improved player of the season" reward)
Any opinions about that?
Would be good I guess...
But
1. About the honour: it is known that in Toh HONOR system is cumulative (caried over to from a season to another), so indeed all vets have full honor rating (I think it is not a good motivation!)
2. This think could be good. I don't know how would this thing be implemented ... Like a drop box into Win/loss report? And the seasonal rewards, they are to far so someone will realy apreciate that. Maybe rewards from 3 to 3 months?
I don't know... just an ideea.
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cosmin
Known Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 11:13 AM |
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Quote:
max[Rn=Ro + 30 +0.05*(D),5]Quote:
You've said you've learned some mathematics. I would realy like to know how a max() function can be applyed to an expression!
Would you be kind to calculate for me:
max [3=3]
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 11:14 AM |
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haha you are too fast for me i put it in wrong place now its correct
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cosmin
Known Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 11:24 AM |
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Edited by cosmin at 11:38, 22 May 2007.
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Quote:
haha you are too fast for me i put it in wrong place now its correct
I don't wanna upset you but it is not correct:
you posted like this:Rn=Ro + max[30 +0.05*(D),5]
and actually would be like this:
Rn=Ro + x;
x = 30 + 0.05*(D);
if (x<=0){x = 5;}
else {x= 30 + 0.05*(D);}
That is minimum 5 for that expression;
------------------------------------------------------------
MAX FUNCTION DEFFINITIONS:
max
Largest elements in array
Syntax
C = max(A)
C = max(A,B)
C = max(A,[],dim)
[C,I] = max(...)
Description
C = max(A) returns the largest elements along different dimensions of an array.
If A is a vector, max(A) returns the largest element in A.
If A is a matrix, max(A) treats the columns of A as vectors, returning a row vector containing the maximum element from each column.
If A is a multidimensional array, max(A) treats the values along the first non-singleton dimension as vectors, returning the maximum value of each vector.
C = max(A,B) returns an array the same size as A and B with the largest elements taken from A or B. The dimensions of A and B must match, or they may be scalar.
C = max(A,[],dim) returns the largest elements along the dimension of A specified by scalar dim. For example, max(A,[],1) produces the maximum values along the first dimension (the rows) of A.
[C,I] = max(...) finds the indices of the maximum values of A, and returns them in output vector I. If there are several identical maximum values, the index of the first one found is returned.
Remarks
For complex input A, max returns the complex number with the largest complex modulus (magnitude), computed with max(abs(A)). Then computes the largest phase angle with max(angle(x)), if necessary.
---------------------------------------------------
If you read it carefully, max reffers to a maximum value from an ellement group. (we have no elements into our formula).
So what you actually ask is Limit the function to 5 if goes under it.
LIMIT!!!
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 11:38 AM |
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Hehe so you say that if player is to get 0 points the formula will give him 5 but if he is going to get 1,2,3,4 he wont get 5 but exactly 1,2,3,4? haha i dont think its fair bro.
Quote:
o what you actually ask is Limit the function to 5 if goes under it.
Well this is all about, isnt it?
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cosmin
Known Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 11:39 AM |
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Edited by cosmin at 11:42, 22 May 2007.
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Quote:
Hehe so you say that if player is to get 0 points the formula will give him 5 but if he is going to get 1,2,3,4 he wont get 5 but exactly 1,2,3,4? haha i dont think its fair bro.
Read below . Already explained to you that.
IT IS CLEAR NOW! YOU'RE JUST TALKING....
from page 1 dear bro
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Let’s say we use a 4 points limiting for a win.
That means that 30+0.05*(D) should always be equal to or higher than 4.
We are actually not talking ONLY about the case when 30+0.05*(D) = 0
Why? Because the formula has other 3 points that we skip:
If for 0 we give 4 then for 1 what are we going to do????
What about 2 or 3?
We are forced to adjust them too. So we alter the basic formula (not only for one case but as you see above for 4 cases) without knowing whether the result continues to reflect the truth (if you accept my opinion, based on two months of calculation and research, it will not reflect the truth anymore).
What will this situation lead to? Somehow predictable: it will bring less credibility for this kind of tournaments and it is completely unfair!!!!!!!! Heroes Tournaments brought joy into our life, made us lots of new friends and gave us many hours of Heroes over the years… (9 years… means a lot to me, I’m sure it changed our life-style, our thinking…)
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Anything else sir to add in front of your attention?
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 11:44 AM |
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Man this formula takes care of all situations, 0,1,2,3,4,-1,-2,-3,... no need for seperate one for each case, i think that you dont understand something here.
Anyway, for me your opinion bacome not credible. i finish this conversation and ill wait for others to justify it.
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cosmin
Known Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 11:57 AM |
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Edited by cosmin at 12:00, 22 May 2007.
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Quote:
Man this formula takes care of all situations, 0,1,2,3,4,-1,-2,-3,... no need for seperate one for each case, i think that you dont understand something here.
Rn=Ro + x;
x = 30 + 0.05*(D);
if (x<=5){x = 5;}
else {x= 30 + 0.05*(D);}
This would do it too.
The advantage here is that if x is not integer number you aplly the rounding function only if needed (inside else).
And somehow, after 4 forum pages, you finally managed to see that your limitation would skip other steps too... Cool!
here's the complete function on your version:
Rn=Ro + max[30 + CEIL(0.05*(D)),5]
for one side rounding.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 12:01 PM |
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Wow you finally managed to confirm this. Maybe your is better, we can use yours, i dont mind. This is all about constructive thinking, im glad you started doing that. It wasnt that tough was it?
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cosmin
Known Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 12:05 PM |
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Quote:
Wow you finally managed to confirm this. Maybe your is better, we can use yours, i dont mind. This is all about constructive thinking, im glad you started doing that. It wasnt that tough was it?
After 4 pages on this Forum lol.
Read what you've said at the beginning. You had no ideea that you step over so many points.
And now if we managed to finally agree on what i've said on first page, let's talk about RANKINGS now.
It is 5 points limitation right?
Please make me understand what's the diffrence between Emperor, Lord and superior half of Legionnaire now!
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 12:09 PM |
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I still dont know what are you alking about with this stepping over something, for me i take all cases into consideration with this formula
Quote:
Please make me understand what's the diffrence between Emperor, Lord and superior half of Legionnaire now!
There is no point in discussing who does this rule concern. It may concern only few players but such cases do happen and its worth to do it for them.
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cosmin
Known Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 12:12 PM |
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Edited by cosmin at 12:20, 22 May 2007.
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Quote:
I still dont know what are you alking about with this stepping over something, for me i take all cases into consideration with this formula
Man.
Please pay attention. We get far enough here to loose ourselfs into dirt.
We got to the point where it it is clear that NOT FORMULA IS THE PROBLEM, but WHAT IS GONNA DO.
I've said at some point:
It is easy to make it, but will the formula like this reflect the true?
Emperor, Lord and half of Legionnaire - they play from same rating now (we made them to be 1). Are you following me?
EDIT
Rn=Ro + max[30 +0.05*(D),5]
why not like this:
Rn=Ro + max[0.05*(D),5] and D is your points - opponents points
do you have any ideea what 30 + 0.05(D) reffers to?
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 12:17 PM |
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Ok thats good that at least you admit this.
Now for what its gonna do.
Its gonna encourage top players to accept challanges from newbies. I often refuse playing newbie just because i gain nothing from the game, no points, no challange(usually) and theres a potential threat of losing many points. Giving me those few points would trigger more balanced score after many games with newbies(you cant win all games , youre not a god) This what happens.
I can see poor players shouting on chat all day long(i think we all know who im talking about) and rarely getting a game, unless with someone new also.
Quote:
30 + 0.05(D)
Of course i do, you get basic 30 points for the win and then its either deducted or increased , depands on the difference in total points before the game. sheesh.
Quote:
Rn=Ro + max[0.05*(D),5] and D is your points - opponents points
hyhy why not? The reason is probably that some of people would be at 500 and the may not like it lol Ves even refused make it equal as loses that is 20+0,05*D , which i think was quite good choice, (personally id do 25 coz the difference is a little bit too big for me but , oh well...at least i got to lords quickly )
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AL_Killmore
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 12:27 PM |
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Cosmin, it seems that you like formulas so much, that you miss one simple thing:
Right now there is a set minimum of points. It is 0 - zero.
The minimum can be set to 1 point or two points very easy.
And it won't reflect the system, because 1 point is just about 3-4% of the points for a normal win.
This "zero" limit means that there are won games that are not actually a "win" because you win absolutely nothing. Not a single point.
When you play a new ToH player, no matter if he's a total newbie or an experienced fighter just new to ToH (like myself) - you play at your own risk. In the way it is now - there is only the risk for losing many points by the new player. Zero points for a win does not worth that risk. Zero points for a win is not a win at all - no matter how weak or strong is the opponent. It's just a loss of time and energy.
That's what are we talking about. Not for changing the formula, the system or the proportions but just to add some minimum reward for the game winners that are risking their ratings and facing the new players on the battlefield instead of not playing at all.
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