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| Thread: Patriotism is stupid, get over it. | |
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pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted May 18, 2007 05:26 AM |
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Patriotism is stupid, get over it.
Patriotism is one of the dumbest notions that I've ever heard, period.
'Nations' (what we're variously supposed to be proud of/grateful to/whatever other crap you want to insert here)are just abstractions, they don't have motivations, don't act, don't have cerebral cortexes, don't have any intrinsic personality traits.
All of those things are the properties of individuals ONLY.
So next time you think to say something like:
'You guys should be greatful to us'
or
'Country X has made great contributions to science'
or
'Country Y is cowardly'
Just remember that the object you're talking about is not a person and does not possess psychological traits like a person. Why on earth would I be greatful to some pimply teenager because his great-grandfathers childhood pal was conscripted into the army 60 years ago? When you say, 'we saved your ass in WW2' - YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING! In fact, you probably didn't even exist, and nor did I. Moreover, AMERICA (for example) DIDN'T DO ANYTHING, BECAUSE AMERICA IS AN ABSTRACTION AND CANNOT BY DEFINITION ACT! Various individuals did.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted May 18, 2007 05:36 AM |
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Edited by Binabik at 05:39, 18 May 2007.
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God damnit people, shut the **** up. You people don't have any intention of being civil. You don't have any intention of a true debate. All you want to do is argue. All you want to do is b**** and complain and be angry. And it's getting real ****ing old.
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pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted May 18, 2007 06:12 AM |
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Thanks for your input Binabik. 
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted May 18, 2007 06:35 AM |
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Exactly the response you were expecting in your thread, right?
Do you understand the need (for the health of HC) to avoid certain subjects for a while? Even the mods have been avoiding this place. It's become a war zone around here.
People can talk about homm or shoot the bull in VW for a while....and just generally chill out. There's a right way and a wrong way to debate. What's been going on around here lately is most definitely the wrong way.
Peace
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pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted May 18, 2007 06:49 AM |
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Yeah, I do see your point and I agree that people should chill out.
My post isn't meant to be an attack on anyone - simply a way to put a point strongly - and my intention was in part to clarify the terms of a debate about countries, i.e. when you talk about 'Australia', 'Israel', 'Bosnia' etc. you must keep in mind that those things are just abstractions and can't have the same characteristics that humans have.
A lot of the debate in the other thread (beside various bits of random-unsupported-'fact' throwing from all sides) misses the mark because people say 'we did this' or 'you did that' as some kind of inclusive statement where apparently all Americans or Austrians or Australians either must take responsibility for something that they personally had nothing to do with or alternatively attempt to claim credit for something that they personally had nothing to do with.
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted May 18, 2007 08:12 AM |
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Quote:
God damnit people, shut the **** up. You people don't have any intention of being civil. You don't have any intention of a true debate. All you want to do is argue. All you want to do is b**** and complain and be angry. And it's getting real ****ing old.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I have been reading threads, and all you guys wanna do is argue with one another.
Get over it, kick back and relax, pop open a beer, and chill!  
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
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pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted May 18, 2007 08:18 AM |
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Get over it, kick back and relax, pop open a beer, and chill!
William, I've seen your profile and that's illegal!
Quick someone make a thread about teenage binge drinking! 
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted May 18, 2007 08:22 AM |
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You live in Australia right?
It isn't illegal if your parents allow you to do so in your own home, and if they are there with you.
Well at least I think that is what happens.
Anyway, teenagers drink all the time, especially at parties.
I, of course, have not had a beer, and I doubt I will.
I like the good, old, coke
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted May 18, 2007 08:36 AM |
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Nah, that's a common misconception, it's still strictly illegal.
Anyway, I don't really care too much. I certainly did my fair share when I was a teenager.
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Dingo
Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
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posted May 18, 2007 09:18 AM |
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Quote:
I, of course, have not had a beer, and I doubt I will.
That is your problem. Fix it Now.
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The Above Post/Thread/Idea Is CopyRighted by, The Dingo Corp.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted May 18, 2007 09:30 AM |
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Yea, fix it!
In the US, alcohol laws are all done at the state level, but I think in most states minors can drink with their parents. And not just at home, but at a restaurant.
Dingo, what's up? Are you still a pothead?
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Dingo
Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
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posted May 18, 2007 09:39 AM |
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Alcohol levels are done at a state level however, thanks to Candy lastnamenotimportant it has become a national 21 year old requirement. Bah . True example of if you put your mind to it, you can really mess up a great thing.
Binabik, that is for me to know and for you to find out  .
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The Above Post/Thread/Idea Is CopyRighted by, The Dingo Corp.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted May 18, 2007 09:51 AM |
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Oh yea. I keep forgetting everywhere is age 21 now. What the heck do college students do these days? I assume it's not like when I first went to college. If you had a college ID you were old enough to drink....and back then pitchers of beer were 75 cents if you went to the cheap place.
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that is for me to know and for you to find out
Learned discretion in your old age?
Hey Pomo, hope you don't mind that your thread got stolen. It had to be done. We all have to make sacrifices.
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Shai-Hulud
Known Hero
Sicomor
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posted May 18, 2007 10:03 AM |
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I, of course, have not had a beer, and I doubt I will.
I like the good, old, coke
Ah, but that's what they always say Don't worry, you will get drunk sooner or later!
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 18, 2007 05:49 PM |
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Hmm?
If patriotism was such a poor concept then what would stop the U.S. from invading Canada?
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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kookastar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted May 18, 2007 11:07 PM |
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Um, morality
I think the original topic of this thread was interesting, maybe more interesting than the legal age of drinking, although that is a good topic too. You can see if there's an old thread on that if you like Bini and bump it
Pomo I have one comment to make about your post that we shouldn't feel guilt for deeds of our ancestors- "it wasn't us." I think that when the life you live has been created through these deeds - e.g. invasion, then you should feel some sense of resposibility for that. I am living on land that was taken under the horrific notion of Terras Nullis and I aknowledge that although the world has changed that it can't simply be "given back", I am benefiting from that...
Patriotism is a strange concept, but a sense of group identity and belonging is an important part of self-identity formation... It can be a positive thing, or a negative one obviously. I think patriotism without question, or critical analysis {following blindly} can be distructive...
hang on, I can see where this is going, perhaps you are correct bini I'll shuddup
I still can't believe the drinking age in the states is 21
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uhuh
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pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted May 20, 2007 05:54 AM |
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Hey Pomo, hope you don't mind that your thread got stolen. It had to be done. We all have to make sacrifices.
No probs, I don't get bent out of shape that easily
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If patriotism was such a poor concept then what would stop the U.S. from invading Canada?
Err, this doesn't make sense to me. Can you please explain how patriotism is currently preventing the US from invading Canada?
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Pomo I have one comment to make about your post that we shouldn't feel guilt for deeds of our ancestors- "it wasn't us." I think that when the life you live has been created through these deeds - e.g. invasion, then you should feel some sense of resposibility for that. I am living on land that was taken under the horrific notion of Terras Nullis and I aknowledge that although the world has changed that it can't simply be "given back", I am benefiting from that...
Very good point Kooka, I agree with you that there needs to be some kind of reparation, in that those actions are not simply history, but are still impacting on the wellbeing of Aboriginal people today. The distinction for me is that Aboriginal reconciliation is not about saying sorry so much as actually doing something to help out with the appalling conditions Aboriginal people live in now. Of course the process is very complex and it is probably impossible to avoid issues to do with group identity.
That said, it still doesn't change my opinion that patriotism and such group identities are stupid. Remember also that part of the justification for the horrible things that went on during colonisation comes from the ability to separate Aborigines out as a group and ascribe to the group a whole bunch of negative characteristics.
Groups still don't act either.
Anyway, I think you already realise this
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Patriotism is a strange concept, but a sense of group identity and belonging is an important part of self-identity formation... It can be a positive thing, or a negative one obviously. I think patriotism without question, or critical analysis {following blindly} can be distructive...
Yeah true, in the same sense that religion can sometimes serve as a basis for people to act morally and sometimes serve as a basis for people to act like ***holes, patriotism may at times underwrite good things.
But patriotism is still ultimately an emotion/cognitions that are held individually - and the object of the emotion/cognitions doesn't exist in more than a figurative/historical sense.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted May 20, 2007 06:04 AM |
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I'm not a big fan of patriotism either.
It seems the further away from home you go the more patriotic you get
Just look at international communities, it's ridiculous. I never got into it.
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John says to live above hell.
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