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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: the boring Implo / Res war :(
Thread: the boring Implo / Res war :( This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
wiggy_wam
wiggy_wam


Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
posted October 23, 2001 11:19 PM

the boring Implo / Res war :(

I've played HOMM since the first, and have been addicted to it.  Beat all 4 campaigns on it, both the campaigns on HOMM2 3 times each, all the HOMM2 expansion campaigns twice, all the HOMM3 campaigns with every expansion twice, (2nd time on impossible), and even all the Heroes Chronicles campaigns all on 200%... needless to say, I LOVE THIS GAME!  

However there arises a certain situation on MOST maps (especially the popular ones) where when you meet your opponent, both forces has a hero with 15-20 on each statistic, and the spells of implosion and resurrection.

This situation will obviously cause an implosion / resurrection war, and the one who has the most spell points wins.  
I must ask, "are these fun?"   "is there a strategy?"
back in HOMM1 you were lucky to get a hero with a attack skill of 7!

these maps get worse yet  
in them are usually a dragon utopia on each side, with a few relics here and there, guarded.  Now, TWO times when I played west vs. east, (there are 2 relics on each side) I have as my relic "Ring of the Magi", and my opponent has "Angelic Alliance"
for those who know what these relics do, they will know that I would not stand a chance.  It is evident that the deciding factor of this game was luck, and would conclude that such a map is (as many would label) "a luck map".

do people enjoy these "luck maps" where one player receives a "power of the dragon father" artifact from a dragon utopia, and the other receives "tome of water magic" or "boots of polarity"??

it seems apparent that most people DO like these maps, because they are the most played.  Yet I would like to know this from all you who read this:
1 - do you like implo / resurrect battles?
2 - do you like these luck maps that I have described?
3 - do you like maps with dragon utopias?
4 - do you like maps with many relics, few, or none?
5 - do you like the maps where you constantly build a single character, build that character to level 18, having 20 to each statistic, and then either winning or losing because one has implosion and resurrection and the other does not?
6 - do you prefer small battles or HUUUUUUGE ones?
7 - do you like open or closed maps?
8 - currently, what is your favorite map and why?

I would like to know, because I am a map-maker, and personally, I have grown sick of these type of maps described above.  I like to make maps like the original HOMM1 & 2, however, I would like suggestions and opinions . . . especially the suggestions on how I can make a fun map while avoiding the implo / res battles.
____________
- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models.  Well ... the ones his age (18-26)  

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Hexa
Hexa


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted October 23, 2001 11:37 PM
Edited By: Hexa on 26 Jan 2002

Before I reply I would first like to know which maps you've made so far!

Edit: revived!@
____________
If you want to realize your dreams >>> you have to wake up!@

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wiggy_wam
wiggy_wam


Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
posted October 24, 2001 04:00 AM

don't be offended here...I only desire suggestions

to answer your reply,
HOMM2 maps:
a long time ago I made a remake of the HOMM1 map "Dragon Pass" for HOMM2.  It was the only successful HOMM2 map I created.  It was a large sized map.

HOMM3 maps:
I have also made a series of seven scenarios into a campaign, called "Amalickiah", all of which scenarios were based on events and wars from a book, plus an overall scenario to those wars.
One scenarios is small sized, four are medium, and two large, and the overall scenario as a large.

I made a map called good&evil which I have submitted to hk (heroes kingdom). Small map.

I made a map called FISHY which I am in the process of submitting to various places ... Large map.

and I am currently making a map called "fortress war", in which I could use some suggestions...

as you can see, I havn't made any "famous" maps yet, and have started spending more time into making maps.  I am no expert, but I am very experienced.
So, please help me with this.  And please don't be offended for me stating my observations.  Thanks  
____________
- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models.  Well ... the ones his age (18-26)  

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thunderknight
thunderknight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 24, 2001 08:59 AM

Quote:
I've played HOMM since the first, and have been addicted to it.  Beat all 4 campaigns on it, both the campaigns on HOMM2 3 times each, all the HOMM2 expansion campaigns twice, all the HOMM3 campaigns with every expansion twice, (2nd time on impossible), and even all the Heroes Chronicles campaigns all on 200%... needless to say, I LOVE THIS GAME!  


Hi, wiggy_wam,

It seems that we have something in common.
I also finish all the campaigns in h2, h3 and h4 plus all expansions. Though I never play Heroes Chronicles coz I heard from some friends that they are too easy.

I am seeking challenge from player made maps. Have you heard about "Angelic Pride", "Titanic Pride", "Lord of War" etc ?? They are fun. Now I am playing "Eternal Love", a player made campaign recommended by Hexa and DVZ. It is also very interesting and much challenging.

OK, back to the subject. IMO, if you want to make a good map, you got to decide what you want to make:-
1) map for serious players e.g. for tournament play
2) map for not-so-serious online multiplaying
3) RPG type of maps, maybe even campaign
coz they are all different and it is extremely difficult to set maps suitable for all 3 purposes. (I guess you already know it. )

Quote:
I would like to know, because I am a map-maker, and personally, I have grown sick of these type of maps described above. I like to make maps like the original HOMM1 & 2, however, I would like suggestions and opinions . . . especially the suggestions on how I can make a fun map while avoiding the implo / res battles.

It is a constant complaint about some "luck maps". Ya, one of the way to avoid it is to eliminate or minimize those uncertainty. Then, why not just play chess ???

I never make a map coz I am just too lazy to do so.
A good strategic map should have some luck factos but should not be focus on it. How about:-
- no dragon utopia
- more neutral towns
- no guarded/unguarded relic artifacts
- edit out those "unbalanced" heroes or artifacts

There are a lot of ways to make a good and "fair" map, but it takes TIME to test and balance.

Btw, what do you mean by "orginal HOMM1&2 maps" ???

____________
Choose what you love
and love what you choose.

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wiggy_wam
wiggy_wam


Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
posted October 24, 2001 12:10 PM
Edited By: wiggy_wam on 24 Oct 2001

thanks...

ThunderKnight, thank you very much for your feedback . . .  you have brought up some VERY good points, and have given me some really good ideas as well . . .

Those rumors are correct, the Heroes chronicles ARE too easy with the exception of one (out of about 10): "the world tree"

I am currently interested in making maps for toh (tournament play).  I've submitted FISHY by now and I plan on having Fortress War also submitted (when it's done)  

About those maps you've listed, they sound interesting ... where can I get them?

I have already implemeted a little trademark in my maps of "no utopias" <-- unless REALLY heavily guarded . . . and no random relics.  The only relics I may use are the less-used or not-so-powerful ones, like:
- sandals of the saint
- tome of water / fire
- boots of polarity ... and so forth
- and perhaps the black orb

Now some will ask, "if I'm implementing this trademark, than why am I asking people about these things on this survey?"  Well, it's because I don't really want to make maps for myself.  If everyone wants a implo/res - prone map, I will make one.  In other words, I want to know if others feel the same way that I do towards certain maps, thereby creating a demand for these new types of maps I am creating.

another idea for one of my maps (fortress war) is to take out the most powerful spells (resurrection, implosion, ch/lightning), thereby making the others more common (counterstrike, frenzy, bezerk, prayer) . . . and of course, banning solmyr, alamar and all those guys in prison  

I think you're TOTALLY right about the luck-maps . . . we don't want something devoid of luck, or it'll just be like chess. . . then again, if it's all luck, then where's the strategy?

I suppose that my taste in maps has grown from the ordinary to the less ordinary . . . I am now interested in new strategy types, designs, concepts, and even focusing on different creatures than the lvl 7 ones who normally rule the HOMM3 world.
I think my ideal map is one with constant interaction (small battles) without a single invading battle.

as for the HOMM1 and HOMM2 maps, I think it's just one of those bringing back of fond memories things    From HOMM 1 my favorite maps were: dagon pass, and the claw.
____________
- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models.  Well ... the ones his age (18-26)  

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Milena
Milena


Responsible
Supreme Hero
in supreme disgrace
posted October 24, 2001 03:32 PM

Replies:

Quote:

1 - do you like implo / resurrect battles?

Sure. This means I have a fully develeped hero.

2 - do you like these luck maps that I have described?

It depends. if the enemy is the lucky one, I don't. j/k

3 - do you like maps with dragon utopias?

A LOT!

4 - do you like maps with many relics, few, or none?

Many, of course. WHo doesn't??

5 - do you like the maps where you constantly build a single character, build that character to level 18, having 20 to each statistic, and then either winning or losing because one has implosion and resurrection and the other does not?

I always seem to develop only one strong character. Usually a magic-related person.

6 - do you prefer small battles or HUUUUUUGE ones?

HUUUUGE ones.

8 - currently, what is your favorite map and why?

Meeting in Muzgob. I have played it so many times; it's such a good map.
____________
Milena

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wiggy_wam
wiggy_wam


Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
posted October 24, 2001 09:23 PM

thanks for your input Milena.
So far I have seen players with all kinds of preferences  

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StormWarning
StormWarning


Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
posted October 24, 2001 10:14 PM

The thing I like least about the artifacts in HoMM is that some of them are so horribly overrated that in a mirror map someone can still wind up with an incredible advantage from artifacts (Helm of Heavenly Enlightenment or Tome of Water Magic? Gee, I wonder which I'd rather have.). If the artifacts' worth was equivalent to its level, I'd be happy, but some are just so much more powerful than others of the level that it's ridiculous. So if you're placing Relics, either turn off the low powered ones, turn off the high powered ones, or place specific ones that are either the same or approximately equivalent.
____________
The calm before the storm is about to end.

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wiggy_wam
wiggy_wam


Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
posted October 24, 2001 10:49 PM

I agree

perhaps there should be random level 5 or 6 artifacts . . .

yeah, i think any random artifact is kinda unbalanced, but because the relics are almost ALWAYS the game-winners, there should be specifications given instead of random ones (IMO).
here's some examples of unbalanced lesser artifacts... which still probably won't decide a game:
- unbalanced level ones: [more useful] centaurs axe, neclace of swiftness, vs  [less useful] bird of perception, pendant of death.
- unbalanced level twos: [more useful] gnolls flail / buckler, boots of speed, vs [less useful] emblem of cognitience <--(check spelling)
- unbalanced level threes: [more useful] sword of hellfire / shield of damned, breastplate of brimstone, cape of velocity, orb of firmament, vs [less useful] dead man's boots, vial of mercury, garniture of interference.

the worst is when you get combination artifacts as relics... there were TWO games where my opponent got Angelic Alliance, and I got Ring of the Magi  

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StormWarning
StormWarning


Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
posted October 25, 2001 09:47 PM

Ouch. My friend and I were playing as allies on one map. I got the Titan's Thunder as Fortress (excellent), and he got the Cloak of the Undead King as Necro. I'm not sure which of us was happier.
____________
The calm before the storm is about to end.

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Defreni
Defreni


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 15, 2001 06:43 AM

Hmm Wiggy

Id pick Recanters/Pendant of negativity, anyday over the level 3 arties u said where usefull.
In many games Id even switch most relics with recanters, if I had the chance.
One game wining arti is surely recanters.
And to combo arties, guess thats why I still only play 1.4

Defreni
Guess how many times I can say recanters
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wiggy_wam
wiggy_wam


Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
posted November 15, 2001 10:01 AM

oops

you're totally right, i forgot recanters!...

it's my 4th all-time favorite artifact ... first 3:
- the RED orb of inhibition  <-- recanters but better  
- shackles (lvl3)
- boots of speed (lvl2)

yeah, there are MANY lvl3's that are better than many relics ... and so forth ... for example: (my opinions)
- emblem of cognitience: lvl2 --> should be a lvl1 artifact
- pendant of second sight: lvl3 --> I'd vote for a lvl2 instead
- garniture of interference: lvl3 --> lvl1
- surcoat of counterpoise: lvl3 --> lvl2
- boots of polarity: relic --> lvl2 or maybe lvl3
- boots of speed: lvl2 --> lvl3 (because they're better than gloves which are lvl2 also)

and so forth...

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Lith-Maethor
Lith-Maethor


Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
posted November 15, 2001 10:23 AM

1 - do you like implo / resurrect battles?

Yep, as long as there is a balance between might and magic...

2 - do you like these luck maps that I have described?

Luck has always been at my side, so... yes...

3 - do you like maps with dragon utopias?

good, as long as I'm the one to breach them...

4 - do you like maps with many relics, few, or none?

the more the better

5 - do you like the maps where you constantly build a single character, build that character to level 18, having 20 to each statistic, and then either winning or losing because one has implosion and resurrection and the other does not?

look at Milena's answer...

6 - do you prefer small battles or HUUUUUUGE ones?

HUUUUUUGE ones, with lots of spells, artifacts and creatures...

8 - currently, what is your favorite map and why?

Pandora's Box... big, nice and Greek
____________
Dreams of Darkness nWoD IRC Chronicle, set in Edinburgh

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wiggy_wam
wiggy_wam


Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
posted November 15, 2001 02:31 PM

thx for input ... but neither you nor Milena used the number 7 in your counting of 8.


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Lith-Maethor
Lith-Maethor


Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
posted November 15, 2001 02:40 PM

heh...

...the dangers of quoting...

...just for the record, closed maps...
____________
Dreams of Darkness nWoD IRC Chronicle, set in Edinburgh

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jiels
jiels


Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
posted November 15, 2001 03:02 PM

Hey Wiggy,

I know we seem to disagree a bit but it's nothing more then a simple difference of opinion.

Anyways here's my answers:

1.  Having never had a straight forward res/implo war I can't say.  If you mean fights where both res and implod are used then, yes.  But I also like fights where they are not used.  As long as the fight goes more then 2 rounds and involves thinking and guesswork, I'm happy, regardless of spells used.  

2.Yes, they are fun, even if I disagree with your use of the term.  

3.Yes, it gives me something to do and adds more to the strategic aspect of the game.

4.Ummm, not sure.  I like a whole bunch of maps.  Especially randoms with no relics.  So to be honest, all of the above, as long as the map remains "fun."

5. I wouldn't like that no, but I have never seen that happen on maps.  What I really don't like is losing on a random XL because I don't get tp or dd.

6.Small battles end to quickly and usually won side has a HUGE advantage.  I like fights that require thinking.  Sometimes you get that in small fights (yay!) but most often I find that in the big fights.  I like fests!

7. I like both.  I really like b@st@rd maps though.  The only maps I really don't like are the ones where you can be killed by your opponent week 1.

8.My Favorite maps are Bob2 because it can turn into an open map week 2, it teaches you how to chain and do fights you wouldn't normally do and hgXl because it's fun!  In my opinion, bob2 really forces you to think.  That's the main reason I like it so much.  Battle for Power and Survivor are also fun maps to play.

jiels (should be sleeping)

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Mocara
Mocara


Famous Hero
what?
posted November 15, 2001 03:50 PM

Wiggy Wac,

I totally agree with you.

Phantom is also a man after my own heart as he plays randoms w/o scrolls or artifacts.

The more this series goes along the more they steer away from strategy and steer into flashy effects.

Walk out of your town on DW and get 10,000 exp points. Walk up to an island on HG and watch your stats go up by 24 pts.

To each their own but I like a grind it out game where all things are even and there are many smaller battles.

Also I think you are wasting your time posting like this on here.

Most of these people don't even play in ToH anyway and if I was playing against the AI I think it would be fun to build 40/40/40/40 stats and drop 4000 pt implosions.

Heroes was created mainly for single player and MP was added on afterwards.

Things like utopias completely destroy resource management and stat building by giving it all to you for free.

I really doubt they had any idea of how intense ToH games are when they made some of these locations.

Also good post Def and Wiggy "relic race" is a perfect term for these maps you mention. It is the same term I have always used coincidentally enough.

The other term I use is arcade heroes. HG is like nfl blitz where as 7 lakes is like madden.

Pick your poison.

-Mocara

"The DOC is back to attack the Wiggy Wac." - The D.O.C.

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Shae_Trielle
Shae_Trielle


Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
posted November 15, 2001 04:09 PM

A quote from the Doc!

Go Moc!


I like all kinds of maps with the exception of those ridiculous high stat building closed maps which have been described at relic races recently. May as well forego all the crap and lay artifacts right outside your front castle door and have a four week army ready for hire. Collect everything and then run to meet the enemy in the middle.

This is not strategy. This is just a relic hunt, may the fastest, luckiest player win. (okay, maybe that was a bit harsh)

Let's see you on smaller battles, in tight confines scouts running everywhere and main battles occuring every week. I couldn't beat a ToH Captain at HG 1,2 or 3, but when it came to a map where we were two days away from each other, he couldn't handle the pressure and I had him done like a dog from the second week.

Implosion is a nice spell to have. So is resurrection. I've fought lots of those battles and had great fun, but somehow they're not quite as thoughtful or tactical as those resource/strategy/hero/gold management games that I am occaisionally blessed to play from time to time. Those difficult maps where armies are smaller due to lack of resources and every day is a fight just to survive.

But each to their own I suppose. And these days, if you want to play Heroes, you have to be prepared to play any sort of game, event he HUUUUGE army twenty relics meet in the middle maps which I seem to find so boring.

*smile*

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jiels
jiels


Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
posted November 15, 2001 04:25 PM
Edited By: jiels on 15 Nov 2001

Quote:

randoms w/o scrolls or artifacts.


I keep hearing of these things, and everytime I shake my head in disgust.  Taking things out of randoms is a logical contradiction, you might as well go watch a football game with just one player.  If you make a map like that, don't call it random because it no longer is.  It's the antithesis of a random map.  And aren't you always making fun of people that play with rules?  Because a random with no scrolls/arts is as dumb a rule as Hg with no dip, imo.    

Quote:

Walk out of your town on DW and get 10,000 exp points. Walk up to an island on HG and watch your stats go up by 24 pts.

To each their own but I like a grind it out game where all things are even and there are many smaller battles.


Hmmmm, if both players have the same box giving exp then aren't things even.  [sarcasm] I love those fights where I win because I have 2 more centaurs the my opponent! [/sarcasm]  To each their own, but I love a win that comes from outhinking an opponent.  I just don't find that in scout wars.  Maybe you do, and if so, kudos to you.  In my exp the player with the bigger army or a better magic arrow wins the scout wars.  And where is the thinking in that?    

Quote:
Also I think you are wasting your time posting like this on here.

I tend to agree but there are a few toh players that come here.

Quote:
Things like utopias completely destroy resource management and stat building by giving it all to you for free.

What difficulty are you playing on?!  On most large randoms it's easy to be making over 10 grand a turn by the third week.   4 castles and you can be making 10 grand a turn.  That's not to hard to do on most large randoms.  Your totally correct about the stat building though.  I won't argue with you there.  
Quote:

Also good post Def and Wiggy "relic race" is a perfect term for these maps you mention. It is the same term I have always used coincidentally enough.

The other term I use is arcade heroes. HG is like nfl blitz where as 7 lakes is like madden.

*sigh*  I don't want to restate myself but, if you really feel this way about those type of maps, then you haven't been playing the people you should.  

The only word I can think of for the type of game you have described is boring.  It's cool that you like it but imo, that's a really boring way to play.  I just can't see the intensity there.  Whee I have more pikemen then you so I will win this fight!  

Say what you want Mo, but I thought you had more intelligence then this post shows.  Maybe you are tired?  *sigh*

jiels (the disappointed)

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jiels
jiels


Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
posted November 15, 2001 04:47 PM
Edited By: jiels on 15 Nov 2001

Quote:

I like all kinds of maps


As do I.  What I don't like or appreciate, is getting looked down upon because I have a different opinion then you.  
Quote:
with the exception of those ridiculous high stat building closed maps which have been described at relic races recently. May as well forego all the crap and lay artifacts right outside your front castle door and have a four week army ready for hire.

Have you actually played these maps?  It requires more then just picking them up outside your castle.  To actually take them you have to chain heroes and troops, and do fights with little troops.  These parts of the game teach you the skills you need to use on every type of map.  

Quote:
This is not strategy. This is just a relic hunt, may the fastest, luckiest player win. (okay, maybe that was a bit harsh)

Play Flamingo on Dw, or Yawacko on hg or JTL on randoms and then come and tell me these things.  Then maybe I will believe someone like you Shae.

Quote:
Let's see you on smaller battles, in tight confines scouts running everywhere and main battles occuring every week.

Pick a time and place.  Here's a few of the more recent ones, Bhf with KingKrakatoa, Beltway with Jex, Random Mediums with Sir Frogclaw, Neil Tennant, and Edwardthethird.  
Quote:

Those difficult maps where armies are smaller due to lack of resources and every day is a fight just to survive.

Do you really want me to tell you how many 200% difficulty random maps I have played?  I have probably played more then you Shae, and you know what, I really dislike them.  Why does that make my opinion somehow less then yours?
Quote:

But each to their own I suppose.


Indeed.

Now it would be really cool if you left the condescension out of your posts.  Just because my opinion is different then yours, doesn't mean yours is better.

jiels (why can't we all get along )

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