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Heroes Community > MapHaven Guild > Thread: [H3] Unleashing the Bloodthirsty Map
Thread: [H3] Unleashing the Bloodthirsty Map This thread is 27 pages long: 1 ... 8 9 10 11 12 ... 20 27 · «PREV / NEXT»
Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted October 03, 2010 08:27 AM

Quicksand works best against a town like fortress that has a lot of 2-hex ground units and not many fliers. Quicksand stops a 2-hex unit if either half is on the quicksand. So it can become useful without as many castings.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 03, 2010 04:02 PM

Save from Season, chinese player.

2.3.7, a few steps away from town portal rampart city.
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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted October 05, 2010 04:38 AM

So he ran straight for town portal and skipped everything else. He didn't even stop for power-ups, even some that were very close to his route. So did he go back and take some of those towns after he had TP? A large herd of gorgons would come in handy.

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ae1337
ae1337

Tavern Dweller
posted October 05, 2010 09:49 AM
Edited by ae1337 at 09:50, 05 Oct 2010.

I don't think he would use gorgons. It is all about abusing single unit blocked by other units, just check large battles of "way home" walkthrough. Not to mention what kind of patience is required, kill legions of behemoths or hydras with 9 titans.. it takes like 20-30min for random event, saving mana is crucial for this kind of speedrun.
Either way results are pretty impressive.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 05, 2010 10:04 AM

Obviously he played this map to death, testing the minimal force required for each fight, then ran his top rush. Very interesting nonetheless.

It requires also minimal editing, adding right spells when you need them. Or you will need starting again and again. But it is only my guess, maybe he did nothing. One strong point is that he managed to get armor of the damned for the anti-magic garrison, and this is a very good idea.
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pacifist
pacifist


Famous Hero
posted October 05, 2010 11:26 AM

Yes he needed the golden bow + high morale and/or the armor of the damned before some critical fights and frenzy spell also. That's what he says in his forum. All that needs tons of reloads, view the map, etc or simply edit the map to save time. He needs the spirit of opression as starting artifact too. I'm back in El Regueldo 6-1-1 and still no anti-magic spell in all guilds. By chance El Regueldo hast it now .

Anyway it's a special type of play where the challenge lies in breaking the record. Still some very interesting ideas from the tactics used . Some of them have their place in the Strategist corner or the Homm tactics post .
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 05, 2010 11:44 AM

I should send him Alexander. If he manages to get through that in less than 3 months, I give up on mapmaking
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pacifist
pacifist


Famous Hero
posted October 05, 2010 11:53 AM

Hehe, don't give up on mapmaking just don't give the admiral's hat (in The Empire of the world3 and Alexandre ) and the stables on Stargate Atlantis mod .
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 05, 2010 11:57 AM

Forgetfulness, force field and blind do not work (not given for free) in most of my maps fights, so I can't see how you can avoid them without brute force at least. And in WoG AI launch dispel every time he needs it.
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pacifist
pacifist


Famous Hero
posted October 05, 2010 02:59 PM

Wog exec uses other AI than H3? I didn't know that, maybe the one that did it can do it also for SoD? Well, maybe not necessary, I started a new UTB SOD v2 game with Wog and only selected : display movement pts remaining (usefull info for movement specialist heroes)and display dwelling hint (I forget many times if I visited or not a creature dwelling ). The rest is then pure SoD except for the AI it seems.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 05, 2010 03:28 PM

No, it is same. But when playing with custom abilities, AI perceives them as a boost, hence the use of dispel. It is a cheat: if you hide a creature with prayer ability behind a force field, AI will try to dispel the prayer, not the force field. Of course, you will be pissed because your force field will be gone as well.

There is indeed a command which will improve AI thinking radius --adventure map--, with noticeable actions. But for battle, nothing changed. The different behavior is due to the extra abilities. AI plays "better" because you give him more choices.
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 05, 2010 04:21 PM
Edited by JoonasTo at 16:21, 05 Oct 2010.

But WoG messes up some other H3 features, golems can be death rippled, vampires can drain life from the undead, etc.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 05, 2010 05:32 PM

Not true.
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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted October 05, 2010 05:45 PM

Not quite, as it messes it randomly. I didn't notice it on my own, but someone reported similiar effect was related to Shield spell - which is just completely unpredictable.
Sometimes WoG does odd things, that's the true.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 05, 2010 05:51 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 18:13, 05 Oct 2010.

I never saw such things. Some unpredictable effects can occur if map is heavy scripted, indeed. But WoG in itself does not change the mechanics.
For example, golems can be death rippled in regular game as well, don't know from where Jonas got the idea that WoG does it.

WoG interface offers a lot of inside-mods. Even games as Oblivion or Civilization,  when you compile tens of mods together will trigger strange effects, due to conflicts. All you need is to know how it works and choose wisely.

It would be interesting to check if battles are different with WoG/SOD for UTB. Maybe Pacifist can send me a save before a very hard battle so I can convert it back to SOD and see if AI moves are exactly same?
Preferably if AI has both cure and dispel, as those interest me the most.
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pacifist
pacifist


Famous Hero
posted October 06, 2010 10:35 AM

Isn't it possible to do the opposite? Load a save from H3 and play in under WoG? because I just started the WoG-SoD version and only played the first 2 days until capture of gold mine. Finish day on gold mine with 3 cyclops in it and El Trueno with the Thunderbird. Could be great if it had importance but we have to wait till day 10 so this only earned me some gold . I'm thinking about leaving sooner without waiting reinforcments because stronghold troops are only needed to beat the Fortress heroes and we receive reinforcments after Forest Keep that should be enough. I don't intend to do a record, want to finish pink before continue but just don't like to wait and don't want to dig holes on beach either.

Since I'm playing the Way Home map in parallel it will take a long time before a hard fight in UTB where cure and dispel could make a difference.

What is great in Andrew Tanzi maps is that he gives all spells to AI heroes that adds some uncertainty to those battles but maybe he gave too much spells to choose? Only the main ones : haste, slow, cure, dispel, blind, teleport, resurrection, sacrifice, implosion (+ other damage spells), forget something?

But if we manage to make the AI play better and better (mods, exe,...) we will need to reduce their army  strenght since we need the player to overcome those fights with minimal losses. It's a give or take situation .
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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted October 06, 2010 11:02 AM

I think the good solution would be to boost resurrection spell - you wouldn't have to wait for ages to rise all troops, assuming you can stay alive for first few rounds. When there are 1000 Behemots in your army and opponent has 3k dragons, it doesn't matter whether you resurrect 10 or 50 with each cast. You need to use some trick anyway.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 06, 2010 11:19 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 11:22, 06 Oct 2010.

Boosting resurrect would screw all other situations, where you have only a few units. If you can resurrect 10 archangels each time you cast , it makes no sense to go for high attack or defense but only for this spell and high spell power or knowledge. Changing any detail has heavy consequences, regardless the type of fight you have.

In my opinion, any important changes to the mechanics must be done in the year the game gets out (patch). Changing all those things 10 years later will simply nullify all the maps done until now, because they were based on exploiting AI flaws and bad play.
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pacifist
pacifist


Famous Hero
posted October 06, 2010 11:23 AM

Well resurrection is not a big problem, if we change the spell we must change the other damaging spells too to keep the ratio.

There are already the classic tricks with clone archangels, berserk wyverns, berserk troop close to ghost dragon. Problem with age is that it doesn't last long contrary to poison. Also must prepare fights to save mana with resurrection with stacks of multiple of resurrection power so no waste of 16 mana to resurrect one more behemoth.

With Wog maybe something can be done : condition all enemy troops disabled or unable to cross walls. AI hero no spell points, player hero with ballistic skill or catapult destroyed, etc We can find the exact conditions if it's feasible. Then apply new version of resurrection spell with a counter of right-clicks on creature to be resurrected that uses mana * nbr of right-clicks and resurrects accordingly. Duration of spells on all units also decreased by the same amount (nbr of clicks).

Much imagination and maybe will make the scripts more complex and less reliable I don't know, maybe ask the script masters
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 06, 2010 11:27 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 11:31, 06 Oct 2010.

I am favorable to any script changes, but within a specific scenario where every thing is set up regardless the script changes. But for all maps, this will mean years of testing, and not sure there will be fans to appreciate. After all, the game is perfect as it is, WoG only added flavors here and there (RPG, abilities, commanders).

Maps as UTB, TEW or LoW are still the best ever done. Any WoG attempts later are only ridiculous things compared to those. The quality of a map is not in the scripts but in mapmaker imagination. And those knew their job.
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