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| Thread: Loose Change |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 18, 2007 08:52 AM |
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Some points agreed upon by the website:
-The instructors at the Freeway Airport were so unimpressed with Hanjour's flying skills, they declined his request to rent a Cessna.
The daring maneuver resulted in the plane hitting the newly renovated, sparsely occupied portion of the Pentagon.
"I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon. He could not fly at all."
-And is it merely a coincidence that the Pentagon was hit in the only section that was renovated to withstand that very same kind of attack, and the Donald Rumsfeld was safe in his office on the opposite end of the building?
-The reports of a concussion, smell of cordite, and silvery flash suggest a blast may have involved more than just the deflagration of jet fuel.(pentagon)
-Operation Northwood:
* The US officials have demonstrated an ability to contemplate killing US civilians in a false-flag operation in order to achieve strategic objectives.
* That one or more of the jetliners commandeered on 9/11 were replaced by decoy military aircraft. The original planes landed and deboarded, while decoys were used to fly into buildings.
-1999. NORAD begins conducting exercises in which simulated hijacked airliners are flown into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
-"I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would take an airplane and slam it into the World Trade Center."
-National Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice
Loose Change misses an opportunity to expose the blatant falsity of Rice's May 16, 2002 comment. It could have mentioned the pre-9/11/01 NORAD drills using scenarios of jetliners crashing into the Towers. It does so three minutes later, but the connection to Rice's statement is lost.
-June, 2000. The Department of Justice releases a terrorism manual, with the World Trade Center in crosshairs.
-June, 2001. The Department of Defense initiates new instructions for military intervention in the case of a hijacking. It states that for all non-immediate responses, the Department of Defense must get permission directly from the Secretary of Defense.
Some critics dismiss Directive CJCSI 3610.01A as having anything to do with impairing military response on 9/11/01 since it provides an exception for emergencies. However, the supporting documents state that, even in the case of emergencies, requests for "potentially lethal assistance" would still require approval by the Secretary of Defense.
-July 24th, 2001. Larry A. Silverstein, who already owned World Trade Center 7, signs a 3.2 billion dollar, 99-year lease on the entire World Trade Center complex, six weeks before 9-11. Included in the lease is a 3.5 billion dollar insurance policy specifically covering acts of terrorism.
-September 6th, 2001. 3,150 put options are placed on United Airlines' stock. A put option is a bet that a stock will fall. That day, put options were more than 4 times its daily average.
What makes this anomalous is the fact that the week preceding 9/11/01 was uneventful for the airlines and their stock prices.
-It was commonplace for reporters to describe the onset of the destruction of the South Tower as an explosion. Such perceptions would rapidly be replaced by the official story that they had "collapsed."
-The side-by-side comparison of WTC 7's collapse and the demolition of other buildings is one of the more compelling parts of Loose Change.
-Loose Change passes quickly over the collapse of Building 7, noting the swiftness of the collapse, but failing to note that it showed all of the features of a controlled demolition.
=On May 4th, 1988, a 62 story skyscraper in Los Angeles burned for 3 hours and spread over 4 floors. It did not collapse. On February 23rd, 1991, a 38 story skyscraper in Philadelphia, built in 1973, burned for more than 19 hours and spread over 8 floors. It did not collapse. On October 17th, 2004, a 56 story skyscraper in Venezuela, built in 1976, burned for over 17 hours and spread over 26 floors, eventually reaching the roof. Guess what? It did not collapse.
In contrast to the 2001 fires in the WTC Towers, the Los Angeles, Philadelphia, and Caracas fires were all more severe and long-lasting. Apparently none of these buildings suffered serious structural damage from the fires, and all were rehabilitated.
-Although Loose Change exaggerates the fact of Flight 175's off-centered impact as "barely hitting" the building, the trajectory of the plane through the building does show that it mostly missed the South Tower's structural core, in contrast to Flight 11's centered impact with the North Tower.
-425,000 cubic yards of concrete is pulverized into dust.
This is demonstrated by examining the many available photographs of Ground Zero. One will be hard-pressed to find any evidence of chunks of non-metallic materials except in photographs showing the site extensively excavated. Thus it appears that the 4-inch-thick concrete above the street level were thoroughly pulverized into fine dust.
-So what brought down the World Trade Center? Let's ask the experts. Van Romero, Vice President for Research at New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology.
"My opinion is, based on the videotapes, after the airplanes hit the World Trade Center, there were some explosive devices inside that caused the towers to collapse. The collapses were too methodical to be a chance result of airplanes colliding with the structures."
Ten days later:
"Certainly the fire is what caused the building to fail. "
Why would Romero change his mind so suddenly?
-In this more complete transcript of Peter Jennings' comments, we see his co-anchor, Don Dahler, jumping in to correct him. (on the news anchor saying that there were two explosions
-On 9-11, New York City lost 343 firefighters at the World Trade Center. Since they were the ones inside the Towers before and as they collapsed, I'd say they've got a pretty good grasp on what happened. So, what does the FDNY think? First, we have this interview from the Naudet brothers' documentary.
"... What do we do? We made it outside, we made it about a block? We made it at least 2 blocks and we started running ... Boom-boom-boom-boom. Floor by floor it started popping out. It was like, as if they had detonated ... Yeah, detonated. Take out the building. Boom-boom-boom-boom. ... all the way down, I was watching it and running. And then you just saw this cloud of s___ chasing you down. Couldn't outrun it. "
-Loose Change provides some excellent footage of the so-called squibs (high-velocity dust ejections) emerging from the Towers' facades below the descending zones of total destruction. However, straightforward analysis shows that these events could not have been the results of gravity collapses.
-So who authorized all this? President Bush's brother, Marvin, was Board of Directors at Securacom from 1993 until fiscal year 2000. Securacom, now known as Stratesec, is an electronic security company backed by Kuwait-American Corporation, which provided security for United Airlines, Dulles International Airport, and from the early 1990s up to the day of 9-11, the World Trade Center. Marvin is also the former director of HCC Insurance Holdings which insured parts of the World Trade Center on 9/11. More information on this was supposed to be disclosed and never was. To date the SEC has not revealed what they have learned.
-If only we could examine the debris from the World Trade Center and figure out what happened. Unfortunately, Mayor Giuliani began shipping the remains off to recycling yards overseas before investigators could even examine it.
Although it took until May of 2002 for the cleanup of Ground Zero to be completed, much of the steel had been removed before FEMA's volunteer team of investigators had started its work. The plan to recycle the steel, submitted by Controlled Demolition Inc., was accepted by the city just 11 days after the attack, and the destruction of the steel proceeded over the objections of victims' families and fire safety experts.
-They also tracked down Abdulaziz Alomari, who is an engineer with Saudi Telecoms, and lost his passport while studying in Denver.
"I couldn't believe it when the FBI put me on their list. They gave my name and my date of birth, but I am not a suicide bomber. I am here. I am alive. I have no idea how to fly a plane. I had nothing to do with this."
-The Telegraph, 9/23/2001
-Except there's a number of things wrong with this tape. One, the tape itself is of very poor quality. And two, the man in the video looks and acts nothing like bin Laden. According to the FBI's website, Osama is left-handed. Yet, in this video, he is writing a note with his right hand. Not to mention he's wearing a gold ring, which is forbidden by Islamic law, And is never mentioned in the FBI's description of him. Compare this video to four other pictures of bin Laden. Does anybody else see a problem here?
Indeed the man in the tape is an impostor [of osama]. This comparison of facial features makes it obvious.
-And now for the last question of all. Why would our government do such a thing? I hope you're sitting down. First, we have Larry Silverstein, the man who purchased the World Trade Center in July, 2001. After September 11th, Silverstein demanded $7.2 billion dollars from his insurers, claiming that each plane counted as a separate act of terrorism. However, on December 6th, 2004, the courts only rewarded him with 2.2 billion dollars.
Silverstein didn't purchase the World Trade Center on July 24, 2001, a consortium headed by him closed a 99-year lease giving them control of the complex. The $2.2 billion awarded in 2004 was in addition to awards Silverstein had already received.
-Next we have the put options that were placed on United Airlines, American Airlines, and Boeing. According to the San Fransisco Chronicle, more than 2.5 Million dollars has remained unclaimed.
Loose Change brings up a strong point of evidence indicating foreknowledge but fails to explain it.
A put option is a contract allowing its holder to sell a stock at a fixed price before a specified date. If the price declines before that date, the holder can realize a profit by purchasing stock at the lower price and selling it at the option price. In the week before the attack put options soared on stocks hurt by the attack.
-As for 9-11 itself, Reuters reported that Convar, a German computer company is responsible for helping companies and accountants in New York restore their data from over 400 hard drives that were recovered from the World Trade Center's rubble. Convar recovered information from 32 different computers that suggested insider trading took place on 9-11. Richard Wagner, an expert at Convar:
"There is a suspicion that some people had advance knowledge of the approximate time of the plane crashes in order to move out amounts exceeding 100 million dollars. They thought that the records of their transactions could not be traced after the main frames were destroyed. "
After their analysis, Convar handed the results over to the FBI. Although the FBI was legally bound to investigate who was responsible, to date they have done no such thing.
This is a different story from the insider trading mentioned a few sentences earlier. According to the Shanghai Star credit card transactions totaling more than $100 million surged through computers in the World Trade Center in the hours before the attack. Convar Systeme Deutschland GmbH used a novel technology to read data from damage hard drives recovered from the rubble.
-Moving on. According to Wikipedia, "One of the world's largest gold depositories was stored underneath the World Trade Center." In 1993 the value of the gold was estimated at one billion dollars, rumored to be owned by Kuwaiti interests. When the World Trade Center was destroyed, the amount of gold "far exceeded the 1993 levels." "The gold was finally recovered in its entirety in late 2001."
Or was it?
On November 1st, 2001, the Timesonline reported that a large amount of gold was discovered in the wreckage of the World Trade Center. Mayor Rudolph Giuliani announced that more than $230 million dollars was recovered from Ground Zero. However, the Comex metals trading division was storing gold bars for the Bank of Nova Scotia, Chase Manhattan Bank, The Bank of New York, Hong Kong, and Shanghai Banking, totaling $950 million dollars. And that's just one company.
Rumor has it that over $160 billion dollars in gold was stored in the World Trade Center. So where did all the gold go? Remember the gold that was found in November, 2001? Reuters reported, that it was discovered in the back of a 10 wheel truck, along with several cars in a delivery tunnel underneath World Trade Center 5. No bodies were recovered.
-After September 11th, President Bush had and continues to have permission to do and say whatever he wants, all under the pretext of 9-11.
The Patriot Act.
The Department of Homeland Security.
Afghanistan.
Iraq.
-It's time for America to accept 9-11 for what it was: A lie which killed thousands of people, only in turn killing hundreds of thousands more, to make billions upon trillions of dollars.
Just look at how the armaments producers and oil and gas interests have made out.
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Mytical
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posted November 18, 2007 09:54 AM |
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I don't know anything about Loose Change, but there are things that still bother me about that day (besides all the sensless deaths). Now I have some wild conspiricy theories, but I don't think that the people you'd expect were responsible. Yes, I think it was about getting us into the war. Yes, I think our government had something to do with it. (Sorry, but I do. No offense meant to anybody.)
One thing was the passangers. So they are just going to sit there while headed straight toward a building? Yeah, ok maybe they would be afraid that the terrorist would crash the plane, or whatever. As soon as it was obvious this was the case anyhow, your telling me they would just sit there? No...I doubt that very seriously.
Another thing, the flying that was done. It's obvious the trained pilots for the airline would not do it, so that means whoever did was really well trained. Yes, it's not hard to crash a plane. It is hard to crash a plane in exactly the right manner to do as much damage as possible to a building.
The timing of the second building falling. Seems a bit suspect. Again I am no expert, I am just going on what I have seen. Could be a reasonable and logical explination.
The absense of certain people when the plane hit the Pentagon. Things that make ya go hhhhmmmmm.
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roy-algriffin
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posted November 18, 2007 07:33 PM |
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Quote:
One thing was the passangers. So they are just going to sit there while headed straight toward a building? Yeah, ok maybe they would be afraid that the terrorist would crash the plane, or whatever. As soon as it was obvious this was the case anyhow, your telling me they would just sit there? No...I doubt that very seriously.
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Its been done countless times and this is just the most famous event of it.Its just the effect of fear and not knowing whats going to happen
Apart from that this is media. Media is made to sell and people like conspiracy theories. In other words this video has to do as much about money as much as some of theories say bush does.
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Binabik
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posted November 18, 2007 07:57 PM |
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When people start talking about conspiracies, it's not even worth listening to. I like what Marilyn vos Savant said about conspiracy theorists - that they have a mild form of psychosis.
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Mytical
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posted November 19, 2007 06:09 AM |
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Mild? No, full blown thank you very much  . Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean somebody is not out to get you. Do you honestly think that the government doesn't keep secrets? It's part of their job too. Now what those secrets are, is anybody's guess. Could be anything from how to double the size of potatoes to UFO's out in Utah. That is the nature of a secret, nobody is supposed to know what it is. If people knew, it wouldn't be a secret now would it?
Now if one of those secrets is having something to do with 9/11 I honestly have no idea. We may never know. Heck I can produce a document stating I am a 9' tall purple skinned, 6 armed alien from Andromeda. How hard would it be for the government to falsify documents to say whatever they wanted it to?
Did the government kill JFK? Probably not, but...
Does Area 51 exsist? Unlikely, but....
So yeah, I'm a insane conspericy theorist. My motto is "Better to keep an open mind, then believe everything you hear."
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Binabik
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posted November 19, 2007 06:38 AM |
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You know what's funny? Well, you know where WPAFB is. I grew up next to it, and most of the adults around here when I was a kid worked there. So I lived around here for a few decades and never heard a word about it, but when I moved to California, EVERYBODY knew about the aliens at Wright Pat except me. I guess I should be more observant.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 19, 2007 10:15 AM |
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Quote:
When people start talking about conspiracies, it's not even worth listening to.
Well that's a very closed-minded approach... you think it's better to ignore anything labeled as a conspiracy?
What defines a conspiracy then?
Perhaps the world is round 
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Binabik
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posted November 19, 2007 11:01 AM |
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I know how my statement sounds. But it seems like I've heard so many conspiracy theories, most of which have a similar theme, that they all start to sound the same.
They are pretty easy to identify early on and I very quickly loose interest. And the same thing is lacking in every one of them - why? They never give a reasonable, logical reason why the conspirators would go to such great lengths to accomplish whatever it is they are supposed to be accomplishing.
It meminds me of an old Bruce Lee movie (I think it was him). The karate fighters had been in this big fight with all the fancy moves and jumps - you know the type - and Bruce Lee says "why don't you just pull out a 45 and shoot him?".
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 20, 2007 07:20 AM |
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That's the good thing about conspiracy theories:
You don't have to say why, you don't have to propose a better theory...
You just have to show that the official story is wrong...
And you get to call anyone who doesn't believe in it brainwashed
Anyway, I just think that some of the stuff presented ranges from strange (puncture holes in Pentagon, WTC3 burning down) to just downright wrong (Osama video, put options on the WTC)
Just being curious 
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Mytical
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posted November 20, 2007 09:25 AM |
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The one thing I don't get, and I will freely admit it does put a damper on the conspiricy theory is..
If somebody in the government did set everything up, they didn't do a great job in covering all the bases. It would have been not so difficult to plant WMD's, and more. I mean if your going to go through all the trouble of pointing a finger, might as well do it a bit more thorough.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 21, 2007 06:43 AM |
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9/11 has nothing to do with Iraq...
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roy-algriffin
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posted November 21, 2007 07:14 AM |
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Conspiracy theories is a bit more narrowed down in my mind then the geeneral steam of them.
Conspiracy theories are more like hypothesies with a smidgeon of evidence that may be something or nothing at all really. Its like take this idea, say 9/11 and then you say because there was no radar tracking (the smidgeon of evidence that could mean anything) bush planned it to happen (The conclusion which people want to arrive at because its more interesting, Theres no conspiracy theories about a person being a philantrophist and perfectly normal, But there could be theories that he sticks all his money in switzerland and runs an arms-selling company because his bank account slipped to someone that there was less money in his account today..)
Basically
Something people dont like/controvorsial+ unsupported evidence, hearsay and facts that could be one thing or another= Wild and interesting theory, that most people never ever keep to themselves but feel the need to spread to the world and talk about it all day. Much like gossip.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 21, 2007 07:20 AM |
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Well in that sense I don't really like 'conspiracy theories' either, ie. the lunar hoax is a joke.
What I was intending was the sense that "something doesn't add up" and not necessarily the drawn conclusion. Fair enough if that's not a conspiracy theory.
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dimis
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posted November 21, 2007 09:44 AM |
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Quote:
9/11 has nothing to do with Iraq...
Are you 100% sure?
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 21, 2007 09:50 AM |
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I mean Iraq wasn't responsible for 9/11... (you'd be surprised how people think this)
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dimis
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posted November 22, 2007 10:21 AM |
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Edited by dimis at 10:54, 22 Nov 2007.
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R u in for a documentary?
From your answer I see that you are 100% sure that this is not the case.
Well, I have something for you to see. I don't think you can be that certain (unless of course you know everything that is presented and you still believe 100% that there is no connection between the war on Iraq and 9/11).
Ok, it took me more than 9 hours to translate the greek - monologues and synchronize them manually on a text editor (yeap, the first subtitles I ever created, so don't expect something classy).
Download the video file found here so that you can use the subtitles I created.
The subtitles are here.
Note that some players need that both the movie and the subtitles have the same name (different extension) and they are in the same directory.
Awaiting comments regarding the documentary and of course any help for improving the subtitles (grammar, spelling, time intervals, etc...) is more than welcome by anybody.
Cheers,
Now I am going to start reading the thread! :-)
- dimis -
P.S.: Oh, it would be an omission if I didn't mention something about the show. It has an online webpage here, and you can find more info here (about screen). The show has won several prizes both domestically as well as internationally during the years, so, it's not something crappy.
And by the way, it was filmed in 2003.
Anyway, I am talking too much. Have fun!
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 22, 2007 01:21 PM |
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Sorry for the confusion, but I mean that alot of people get confused between Saddam Hussein and the Iraq regime and, say, Osama Bin Laden (if he is responsible for 9/11), believing that the invasion of Iraq was directly reactive to the 9/11 attacks, when in actuality that was the Afghanistan war.
In talking theories, however, (and not the official story), I agree that the 9/11 attacks did catalyze the pre-existing plan to invade Iraq. In fact I was just reading how Bush went into the post-9/11 security meeting asking that they "find a way to link it to Iraq"
All I was saying is that officially the US didn't go into Iraq in response to 9/11, but rather after the supposed WMDs.
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