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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Heroes IV: Spells
Thread: Heroes IV: Spells This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 25, 2001 11:12 AM bonus applied.

Heroes IV: Spells


The lead up to Heroes of Might and Magic IV in our community has been full of intruige, disappointment, discussions, and debates or which who, how and what will be involved in the new game.
Among the array of colourful threads and posts or replies, have included things about creatures, grails, heroes, artifacts, changes, things that are important, and many other significant threads.

Since heroes 3, the whole of HC has one time or another, discussed Heroes of Might and Magic 4. We all must agree, it has taken a quantum leap in many areas. The graphics. They have been enhanced to make it look like a real 3D world of adventure. The creatures. Some good. Some popular. Some just plain bizarre. By and large, creatures have been the most topical of the issues discussed so far in the Altar. Take mine. 144 replies. It has only been around for a month. Also the heroes, with there more interactive and customisable role in Heroes of Might and Magic IV. In previous series, they have been used solely to increase creatures attack and defense skills, which gives them enhanced strength in a battle situation, and probably most notably, to cast spells.
Spells have been very important to the nagic heroes over time, but are not being used nearly often enough. There are many great spells, and now there are increased fields of magic.

Chaos. (Asylum) Specialises in direct damage.

Order. (Academy) Specialises in counter damage nand enhancement.

Life. (Haven) Specialises in creature enhancement.

Nature. (Preserve) Specialises in direct damage.

Death. (Necropolis) Specialises in direct damage.

No Magic. (Stronghold) Too much of a handicap?

Now that magic has taken a step up from Heroes 3, like most major things have, UnkaHaakon proposed to have Grails specialising in magic so it can benefit this 5 star effect. It would also make magic more prominent and important if magic was used to protect against a siege. Magic may even be used by spellcasters to knock down walls with a catapult or a larger weapon.
Magic can also be used in a wider range of insyances, since it is associated with the fully-fledged hero figure. A hero can be used ion combat, which not only enables more use for physical attacks, but also spells.
This may also lead to magic resistance with the spellcasters, since it has been used with creatures such as the dragons in heroes 3 and 2, and there is no reason why it shoudn't be used with heroes aswell. Resistance has always been a tricky thing. But now it doesn't havbe to be because we can utilise opposing forces of nature, such as life and death.
The old system (Fire, water, earth, and air) did not make enough room to accomaodate all forces of magic, since it really wasn't life-like.
So here are the more prominent spells, and their meaning.

                            Air
Haste: Increases hex movement
Lightning Bolt: Medium-weak level instant spell.
Hypnotise: Certain power is put under your control.
Chain Lightning: Affects a number of people until it reaches 4.

                           Earth
Death Ripple: All except undead get affected by a low level combat spell.
Force Field: A very interesting blocking spell.
Meteor Shower: Similar to 'hain Lightning
Implosion: Deals a heavy amount of damage to target creature.

                            Fire
Fire Wall: A very weak blocking device.
Fireball: Similar to 'lightning'
Land Mine: Average-weak hidden land mine.
Armageddon: The most powerful spell in the game.
Inferno: Advanced Meteor Shower.

                            Water
Ice Bolt: Similar to Lightning Bolt', just weaker.
Frost Ring: Advanced Ice Bolt.
Clone: Creates a duplicate of chosen creature.

These are all quite significant spells for their type. But which ones should we add, which ones should we remove? How will these fit into the current system? Or maybe the spells have changed accordingly?
I have stated my own opinions to these questions; but probably, they are not the same to your own.

ADD:
Resurrect: A very important spell from H2. It offered ample chance to get lost troops back. Life Magic
Holy Shout: A spell opposite to Death Ripple. Life Magic.
Entrap: A selected hero is incarcerated for a maximum of 3 turns. Order magic
Dragon Slayer: Another from H2. Upgraded to + 40% more damage against them. Order magic
Titan Slayer: To make it even . Chaos Magic
Nature Trap: Is placed before a point of interest instead of a creature. Nature magic
DarkStorm: Makes a week on every town induce the week of the plague instead of the spellcaster's. Death magic.
Grow: Choose an obstacle and duplicate it on how advanced the technique is. Nature Magic.
Slow: Decreases hero movement outside battle. Nature magic
Infusion: Joins two creatures(to the shape of the stronger one) while dealing damage at the same time. Chaos magic
Shroud of Darkness: Allows the hero to pass through without being noticed for a minimum of 1 turn. While if anybody comes into contact with the hero, they are forced inot a battle. Death magic.

SUBTRACT: (Starting to sound like basic maths.)
Prayer: A meaningless and expensive spell.
Forgetfulness: Insignificant spell.
Blind: Some creatures already have this specialty.
Sorrow: Extremely expensive(Enemy troops morale is decreased by 1 on 1 turn.
Magic Mirror:20% chance of being redirected to enemy troop.
Fortune: Similar to sorrow-but positive.

But when we do this, we must take into accou that there may be different systems on how powerful the spells are, how the skills differ, and if they are still used in the same way.
Spells may not seem important, because all you see is a short beam or something, not a whole creature or hero moving around on the board. This is the main reason why spells are not used to suit people's needs. If they were advanced; or the spells could be more global, there would be a great chance spells would be a turning point in battle. In HoMM3, they were working towards that, but didn't quite achieve it in my opinion.

So post your ideas for spells here.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 25, 2001 01:00 PM

"Chaos. (Asylum) Specialises in direct damage.
Order. (Academy) Specialises in counter damage nand enhancement.
Life. (Haven) Specialises in creature enhancement.
Nature. (Preserve) Specialises in direct damage.
Death. (Necropolis) Specialises in direct damage.
No Magic. (Stronghold) Too much of a handicap?"

Nope... It's like this when it comes to specialization (from the gamepen interview):
Chaos magic specializes in direct damage.
Order magic specializes in illusion and mind control.
Life magic specializes in blessings and healing.
Death magic specializes in curses and raising undead.
Nature magic specializes in creature summoning.

Allied schools may perhaps have some spells which their neighbour specializes in but that's something else.

"Magic can also be used in a wider range of insyances, since it is associated with the fully-fledged hero figure. A hero can be used in combat, which not only enables more use for physical attacks, but also spells."

Yes, but remember to cast a spell you forfeit the physical attack.

"This may also lead to magic resistance with the spellcasters since it has been used with creatures such as the dragons in heroes 3 and 2, and there is no reason why it shoudn't be used with heroes aswell. Resistance has always been a tricky thing. But now it doesn't havbe to be because we can utilise opposing forces of nature, such as life and death. "

Resistance is a skill which applies to the Hero (and some creatures have it as an innate ability). At grand master the hero skill will give you 100% resistance. Since there will be spells that affect everyone on the battle-filed this will be an important skill for heroes.

My guess is that Life and Death will work with spells but the major part for the effect of XXXXX Ward would be between creatures of the affected towns.

"These are all quite significant spells for their type. But which ones should we add, which ones should we remove? How will these fit into the current system? Or maybe the spells have changed accordingly?"

From what I've seen there will be a huge amount of spells, and the vast majority will be available only in one school. Many more than in Heroes 2 and 3. I'd assume that almost every spell get carried over. Some like the Protection from XXXXX, will get changes so instead of elements they'll give protections from a school.

Resurrect, Animate Undead, Necromancy: I would like to see any spell that creates or restores creatures as a post-combat effect. The reason for this is:
1. You shouldn't be able to do these things in the midst of combat.
2. If the enemy flees / surrenders you would be prohibited from restoring creatures to life, which you would have been able to restore if the enemy stayed (say if you blinded the enemy and then used resurrection ten turns in a row.)
3. The placing of these effects as post-combat effects conflicts a bit with also being able to do it in combat.
4. It prohibits hit and run tactics.
5. The skills should cost Mana to use, and is usable only directly after combat.

It probably won't work this way for animate dead and ressurrection, but I believe it should work that way anyway.

"Entrap: A selected hero is incarcerated for a maximum of 3 turns. Order magic"

Is this in combat? On the adventure map? Why only usable on a Hero?

For your list of spells.... Why don't you suggest them on the appropriate Threads I started for primary skills? (Primary skill analysis: Chaos magic etcetera). I wanted there to be a spell discussion on what spell should be included for each school but nobody has suggested anything yet.


"SUBTRACT: (Starting to sound like basic maths.)
Prayer: A meaningless and expensive spell."

You can't be serious?!? This spell is awesome if you have Expert water.

"Forgetfulness: Insignificant spell."

You must be joking! Expert water and Grand Elves and Markmen are as easily slain as orphaned kittens. I've used this spell to devasting effect on some maps, where any other spells would have caused staggering losses.

"Blind: Some creatures already have this specialty."

True, but it's one of the best spells. Should definetely stay.

"Sorrow: Extremely expensive(Enemy troops morale is decreased by 1 on 1 turn."

Expensive, but sometimes useful. I've used it a few times when it's paramount that the enemy does not get an extra turn. And the spell works for spellpower rounds and reduces morale for all stacks by 2 on expert level.

"Magic Mirror:20% chance of being redirected to enemy troop."

Hmm... I seem to remember it's a bit more, at least on expert level.

"Fortune: Similar to sorrow-but positive."

Apart from the fact that it affects Luck and not Morale. Luck reduces damage in Heroes 4 this will have some bite.

When it comes to mass spells I believe it will work as in heroes 2. Level 1-3 will be on one target. Level 3-5 will be a mass effect. One of the secondary skills will decide the bonus for the spell (which would correspond with the spellpower in heroes 2 or 3.) So basically, we will likely only have 5 levels of spell power in heroes 4. (Excluding sorcery and effects from artifacts and similar.)

"So post your ideas for spells here. "

If you have general ideas for spells, then yes post them here. If you have ideas for a specific school then please post them in the "Primary skill analysis: XXXXX Magic" threads I've created.

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 26, 2001 12:09 PM

Are you doing this just to disagree with me?

I have tested out these spells and for me, they to certainly not cause havoc. And you do not have to be an expert to use spells like prayer and forgetfulness. Remember that forgetfulness only works 20% of the time, and when it does work, it's duration is 1 turn. How can this wreak havoc? Prayer is good-only in its expert form. And even this is a bit pathetic for a level 5. Prayer has no real meaning, it only raises ceratain aspects that a creature has got to offer.

The spells that are the turning point for me are some simple spells like magic arrow, and some which pinpoint a creature's weakness, such as Holy Shout or Death Ripple. These are more likely to win a battle for you than prayer.

Yes, but remember to cast a spell you forfeit the physical attack.

But sometimes it is worthwile giving up an attack if it is your gnolls turn, and you have about 5 in your creature stack. Wouldn't you rather use a lightning bolt spell rather than getting your gnolls killed?

Is this in combat? On the adventure map? Why only usable on a Hero?
Both. That is why i didn't single one out. It is only used on a hero, since it is the 'leader' of the army and is the only one with the knowledge enough to get out.

"Sorrow: Extremely expensive(Enemy troops morale is decreased by 1 on 1 turn."

Expensive, but sometimes useful. I've used it a few times when it's paramount that the enemy does not get an extra turn. And the spell works for spellpower rounds and reduces morale for all stacks by 2 on expert level.

You cannot be serious on this spell can you? Does it really matter if it reduces morale by 2? Really, this can be well overcome. What's the difference if you have a morale level of 3? Or -3? And this is on expert level!!

For your list of spells.... Why don't you suggest them on the appropriate Threads I started for primary skills? (Primary skill analysis: Chaos magic etcetera). I wanted there to be a spell discussion on what spell should be included for each school but nobody has suggested anything yet.
>I thought it was about primary skills. Maybe if it said Primary skills&Magic it would have started. Oh well. You can now post your spell related issues here.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 26, 2001 12:40 PM

"Are you doing this just to disagree with me?

I have tested out these spells and for me, they to certainly not cause havoc. And you do not have to be an expert to use spells like prayer and forgetfulness. Remember that forgetfulness only works 20% of the time, and when it does work, it's duration is 1 turn."

=> We must be talking of different things. I was talking of the Heroes 3 spells of Prayer and Forgetfulness. You could perhaps be talking about Heroes 2 versions, which I'm not familiar with.

In Heroes 3 with expert Water Magic:
Prayer gives all your stacks +4 Attack, +4 Defence and +4 Speed.
Forgetfullness makes all enemy units unable to use a missile attack. (Though I believe Titans are immune to it because of their spell immunity.)
Both of these have a duration equal to your spellpower in heroes 3 (and the same applies to Heroes 3 Sorrow spell, below.)


"You cannot be serious on this spell can you? Does it really matter if it reduces morale by 2? Really, this can be well overcome. What's the difference if you have a morale level of 3? Or -3? And this is on expert level!!"

=> You seem to be talking of the Heroes 2 spell here, and me about the Heroes 3 spell.

At times it is paramount that the enemy doesn't get an extra move. Take a combat like the one in the Dragon Slayer AB campaign against 3500 Naga/Naga Queens. They would have a morale of +1 or possibly +2. Even if the Nagas just get in one attack, they would wipe out the bulk of my stack of Titans which are doing all of my damage. The same effect can be accomplished in other ways in this case, but starting with casting Slow and Sorrow (with Expert Earth Magic) is a good way to start the combat. You can then Blind the stacks and take them out one by one. This is one of the few combats where I've experienced that my Titans have run out of shots. (There's a use for that Ammo cart even with Titans.)

This way requires a lot less mana than many other strategies.

You're rioght about one thing. In order for these spells to be useful, they have to be valid for several turns. A 1 turn Sorrow, Forgetfulness and Prayer on 1 creature is not going to make anyone happy.

"I thought it was about primary skills. Maybe if it said Primary skills&Magic it would have started. Oh well. You can now post your spell related issues here."

=> It is but since the spells pretty much is the skills for the magic schools I included spell lists for each of them in the threads for the 5 primary skills for Magic. You're right I was not being specific about wanting to discussing spells.

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Darion
Darion


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 26, 2001 10:01 PM

Actually, by mid-game, even when you have expert magic, the attack spells do not have much effect, even with lots of spell power. Simply put, magic helps the battle and may even decide it, but without strong creatures, magic is worth nothing (unless you do an armaggeodon combo) which is why you should keep the morale factors and prayer (with expert luck and expert air magic and you cast fortune? Your creatures do more damage than a lightning bolt would, or maybe perhaps even armaggeodon)

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted October 27, 2001 05:44 AM

It's not possible to take all 5 schools of magic is it (including Life and Death)?
____________

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 27, 2001 07:54 AM

Jenova: I'm not quite sure, but my guess is that you can't.

Djive:

Hmmm…. I couldn’t have been talking about the Heroes 2 versions of ‘prayer’ and ‘forgetfulness’, since there weren’t any. But what I was talking about was the spells in there advanced levels; which are the average skill, so I did not lean to one side. Sorry for not expressing myself in the correct manner needed, Djive, my apologies.
Here’s the information for the advanced classes of the spells.

Prayer:
Target, allied troop’s attack, defense, and speed are increased by 4 for that turn only. That is hardly worth 16 mana in my opinion. What would be the use of this spell when the creature already has gained about +7 defense and attack, considering you chose a might hero. The hero already had to be at a high level to learn the spell anyway. If you chose a might hero, and cared about spells and their outcomes, you would have bought a spellbook to learn the spell. Although, if you care equally about your creatures, you have invested in a few creature dwellings as well as buying a spell book to balance it out. But if you don’t have a balance your purchases you may be increasing the attack, defense and speed of a level 2 creature. This is because you are not advanced enough in the art of creature combat. Or you wouldn’t possess the spell at the other extreme.

Forgetfulness: Target, enemy troop with ranged attack cannot use that feature.Yes, this spell would be worth its 12 spell points if its duration was 2 turns, not 1 which it currently is. It is also rather expensive for an enhancing level 4 spell. Although if you disable a titan or some sharpshooters, it could be worth the trouble of 12 spell points. Although every town does not have 3 powerful ranged attackers, as the Tower does. Or the Academy in Heroes 4. This means you have to disable a weaker stack, or none at all, since the fortress only has 1 ranged attacker. Yes, it is extremely useful against 200 sharpshooters, but it is only for 1 turn, and you may not be able to capitalise on that. And you give up a turn as you said; never overlook the finer details of the spell being casted. 

Another extremely useless spell is mirth. Again it is in water magic and is a level 4 spell. 12 spell points. Morale of target troop is decreased by 2. Now this is a spell which we need to eradicate and replace with a better, more thought out and long-term beneficial spell. If any one has a significant long-term use for this spell please post your reply.

Anyway, I’m sure there’ll be many new and very useful spells in Heroes 4, which haven’t been exposed or discussed because of their apparent insignificance and disinterest. Heroes 2 specialised in many ‘mass spells’ such as mass slow which is a cheap way of taking up space, when they could be suitable for an expert effect, like in HoMM3.
Some spells which should stay from H3:
Haste: A cheap, useful spell.
Magic Arrow: Can be devastating and is very cheap.
Disrupting Ray: A cheap and very easy way of reducing defense quickly. (Multiple times)
Visions: Although not that useful, it is cheap and fun to use.
Dimension Door: Extremely useful if you want to defend your castle when you are miles away.
Slow: Basic, cheap useful spell.
Stoneskin = upgrade to Steelskin(More powerful) Great defensive spell.
Death Wave: Makes choosing Necropolis worthwile.
Earthquake: Extremely useful in a siege.
Teleport: It can prevent devastating hand to hand attack.
Meteor Shower: Powerful and cheap.
Resurrection: Extremely useful, even though Archangels possess this ability.
Bloodlust: Great attack enhancer.
Fireball: Great basic spell. Although a bit expensive.
Armageddon: My personal favourite spell: Devastating effect. Most powerful spell in H3 and H2.
Slayer: One of the best spells to focus on creatures.
Summon Boat: Useful and cheap.

Will Heroes IV have room to utilise these spells? We’ll find out in a short time.

State your opinions here. Mine are all based on the advanced version of the spell.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 27, 2001 10:08 AM

"Hmmm…. I couldn’t have been talking about the Heroes 2 versions of ‘prayer’ and ‘forgetfulness’, since there weren’t any. But what I was talking about was the spells in there advanced levels; which are the average skill, so I did not lean to one side. Sorry for not expressing myself in the correct manner needed, Djive, my apologies.
Here’s the information for the advanced classes of the spells."

=> Advanced may be the medium level, but the magic schools are so beneficial at Expert so the net result is that you either don't have it or you have it at expert. Anyway, if you take away the mass versions of spells the enhancing and protective spells will suffer a lot and damaging spells will gain a lot. Heroes 4 will have both single versions of spells and mass versions of most spells.

"Prayer: Target, allied troop’s attack, defense, and speed are increased by 4 for that turn only. That is hardly worth 16 mana in my opinion. What would be the use of this spell when the creature already has gained about +7 defense and attack, considering you chose a might hero.

=> First the boost of Prayer is the same as granted by Slayer if you just look at the attributes. The difference is that Slayer only works on level 7 creatures, and only boosts Attack skill. If you look at the spell which overall boosts your values most, then Prayer is it. The +4 Speed is almost as good as Haste, and can't be countered by Slow. (If the enemy casts Slow you still have the +4 from the Prayer.) The surprise effect with the Speed boost makes this spell devastating.

"The hero already had to be at a high level to learn the spell anyway. If you chose a might hero, and cared about spells and their outcomes, you would have bought a spellbook to learn the spell."

Prayer gives a bigger boost than lower level spells, and you're likely to be able to afford the spell, so why shouldn't you cast it?

"Although, if you care equally about your creatures, you have invested in a few creature dwellings as well as buying a spell book to balance it out. But if you don’t have a balance your purchases you may be increasing the attack, defense and speed of a level 2 creature. This is because you are not advanced enough in the art of creature combat. Or you wouldn’t possess the spell at the other extreme."

If I don't have Advanced Wisdom, then why would I build a level 4 Mage Guild? All spells that have Mass effects are usually only preferred to damage spells if you:
A) Have the school on Expert level
B) Only have one stack to influence anyway or one stack which is much more powerful than any other.

And even then you sometimes prefer damage or summon spells instead of th enhancing spells.

There's only a limited number of spells that are truely useful in the Basic versions. The enhancing and degrading spells are usually cast when you have a mass effect, and usually only then,

"Forgetfulness: Target, enemy troop with ranged attack cannot use that feature.Yes, this spell would be worth its 12 spell points if its duration was 2 turns, not 1 which it currently is."

=> You're wrong. This spell works for a number of rounds equal to your spellpower.

"It is also rather expensive for an enhancing level 4 spell. Although if you disable a titan or some sharpshooters, it could be worth the trouble of 12 spell points."

=> It's a level 3 spell. Unfortuantely, not usable on Titans due to Mind spell immunity. But great on Marksmen and Grand elves (and good on any other kind of creatures). I believe I had a Ballista and a few Archangels and took out a legion of Marksmen thanks to this spell. (Expending something like 20 spellpoints)

"Although every town does not have 3 powerful ranged attackers, as the Tower does. Or the Academy in Heroes 4. This means you have to disable a weaker stack, or none at all, since the fortress only has 1 ranged attacker. Yes, it is extremely useful against 200 sharpshooters, but it is only for 1 turn, and you may not be able to capitalise on that. And you give up a turn as you said; never overlook the finer details of the spell being casted."

=> It's best used against guard stacks that are shooters and overpower you. After forgetfulness, they have to traverse the battlefield giving you two rounds of free fire, as well as giving the shooters a combat penalty against your ground troops.

=> I beginning to sound repetetive but: the spell lasts for SPELLPOWER rounds! Try it out if you don't believe me.

"Another extremely useless spell is mirth. Again it is in water magic and is a level 4 spell. 12 spell points. Morale of target troop is decreased by 2."

=> _Increased_ by 2. This one needs to have it's level decreased. (And Sorrow, Fortune and Misfortune would need the same adjustment. They should be level 1 for basic effect and level 3 or 4 for mass effects.) For Morale the single unit spell should be level 1 and mass version level 3. Mind you Morale will work a bit differently in Heroes 4 and that may affect how the spell look like.

"Now this is a spell which we need to eradicate and replace with a better, more thought out and long-term beneficial spell. If any one has a significant long-term use for this spell please post your reply."

=> Well if you have a -3 Morale then in some cases you might want to cast this spell because you lack any other usable spells to cast... But Mirth don't see much use on my part. Don't say it will in Heroes 4 (because Morale works differently), but Heroes 3 version is too weak.

"Anyway, I’m sure there’ll be many new and very useful spells in Heroes 4, which haven’t been exposed or discussed because of their apparent insignificance and disinterest. Heroes 2 specialised in many ‘mass spells’ such as mass slow which is a cheap way of taking up space, when they could be suitable for an expert effect, like in HoMM3."

=> Indcations are they will return to the Heroes 2 approach for Mass spells. Since they're making the schools unique without duplicated spells, this approach sounds like a good idea to me.

"Some spells which should stay from H3:

=> How about proposing which magic sphere they should belong to in my threads???? Recall, that all of these spells will only be in one spherel and won't be commonly available.

Haste: A cheap, useful spell."

=> Haste should have a single version and mass vesion.

"Magic Arrow: Can be devastating and is very cheap."

=> I hope this will be limited to Chaos magic. (Most schools should have no direct damage spells.)

Disrupting Ray: A cheap and very easy way of reducing defense quickly. (Multiple times)

=> Actually, this is one spell that i rarely use.... It could be left in. I don't mind. There's a lot of slots to fill.

Slow: Basic, cheap useful spell.
Stoneskin = upgrade to Steelskin(More powerful) Great defensive spell.

=> These two will likely come in two versions, one for single units and one mass version.

Death Wave: Makes choosing Necropolis worthwile.

=> I'd hope this is in.

Earthquake: Extremely useful in a siege.

Resurrection: Extremely useful, even though Archangels possess this ability.

=> This one I hope is not a spell but only a post-combat effect.

Slayer: One of the best spells to focus on creatures.

=> And you don't like Prayer which gives the same attribute score bonus, works against all creatures AND gives +4 speed?

Will Heroes IV have room to utilise these spells? We’ll find out in a short time.

=> They will likely have these and MANY MANY more spells. That's what you get when making the spells in the schools unique.

=> About advanced version... I believe most spells will have two versions one for single units and one for mass effects. So I'll keep talking about expert versions (meaning mass spells).
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted October 27, 2001 05:10 PM

Djive.. are you a dog? Just curious..
____________

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Preserver
Preserver


Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
posted October 27, 2001 05:21 PM

Close...

..he's a gnoll! (that means a little more human)
____________
- The only alert the invaders had was the rustling of leaves on a day without wind -

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Wyvern
Wyvern


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 27, 2001 05:32 PM

ThE_HyDrA, you missed some useful spells - Town Portal, Fly... You talk mainly about battle spells and not adventure ones. I hope that there will be many new adventure spells and they will be of use. By the way, you didn't mention some spells that will probably be in the game (they are at least in the Beta) - Confusion, Cloud Confusion, First Strike, Mass First Strike, Summon Wolf, Steal.
Hmm... in which type of magic should be Town Portal, Fly, Dimension Door? Nature, Order?
And Djive is not a dog - as I can see, he is a gnoll...

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 27, 2001 05:43 PM

No you're all wrong...

Djive, my Avatar, is a Gnoll Witch, which means that you're supposed to refer to her as a SHE.

[Djive grumbles and contemplates turning the Elvess, the Treant, and the Lizardman into slimy Toads.]

(Desparteyly trying to calm down Djive before she zaps the three culprits....)

You're lucky this time around... Just don't do this again.... Agreed?

So shall we get back to the on-topic stuff again????

PS. You're lucky there's no Toad icon or this would have been the perfect post to use it in. DS.


____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 28, 2001 04:21 AM


Wyvern:

Yes, i was just going to mention Town Portal, Wyvern. I believe it is a very important spell if you want to get to  town quickly. But i think that fly is not needed. You just have the flying boots for that. And that is for the whole game. Fly is for 1 turn/day.
And i like your other ideas, too.

Djive:

“Heroes IV will have both single and mass versions of most spells available.”

Yes, but I think they should be combined in 1 spell, if they aren’t already. This would make room for more spells and then in turn have more playability.

“First the boost of Prayer is the same as granted by Slayer if you just look at the attributes. The difference is that Slayer only works on level 7 creatures, and only boosts attack skill. If you look at the spell, which boots your values most, then Prayer is it. The plus 4 speed is almost as good as Haste, and can’t be countered by slow. (If the opponent casts slow you still have the +4 from Prayer.) The surprising effect with the speed boost makes this spell devastating.

Not really, Slayer is especially attributed to level seven creatures, and it gives you +8 attack. It would be a mini-prayer if it gave you +2 of every skill wouldn’t it?
Say if you have a titan, original speed = 11. +4 from Prayer = 15. Then if the opponent casts slow, its speed gets halved to 7. So Prayer can be countered by slow, and also many other spells, such as disrupting ray, and bloodlust.
In a minimum duration of 1 round or a maximum of 10 or over, but sorry for not saying this, but how can this spell become devastating with only attack, defense, and speed increased by 4? I would see your point if something else was increased, such as HP or the amount of damage dealt. It is going to have to have a longer duration long before you can start doing damage in the long-term, including serious damage.
Also, when you are that high level, maybe 10, Prayer’s effects may not be very beneficial towards you, since the attack and defense of your creatures have already greatly increased. If you choose a might hero, your spell power will not be very high, reducing the duration even further.

“Prayer gives a bigger boost than many lower level spells, and you’re more likely tp be able to afford the spell, so why shouldn’t you cast it?

That’s not the point, the point is the availability of the spell. You may not get to learn expert water magic, or buy level 4 mage guilds. You’re better off investing in another magic school, such as fire or earth, and casting lower level spells, such as disrupting ray and stone skin. Higher is always better or more economical for that fact either. Also lower level spells last for a longer time, since they don’t combine many attributes. The level is also to high, and too expensive, they are better than a single, low level spell, but not much. You’re also sacrificing great spells like disrupting ray and haste, as I said before.

“If I don’t have advanced wisdom, than why should I build a level 4 mage guild? All spells that have mass effects are usually only preferred to damage spells if you:
A) Have the school on expert level.
B) Only have one stack to influence anyway or one stack which is much more powerful than any other.”

For A), this is because you can use mass spells.
This is why you must balance out what you buy, so you can achieve the maximum effect. You’ve answered your own question there, Djive.
For B), you could use implosion, and you would be much better off.

“And even then, you sometimes prefer damage spells or summon spells instead of enhancing spells. “

Exactly, then why should you use Prayer, and take the long way around, when you could just hit them with a meteor shower, which costs the same, but your creatures do not have to get into the thick of things to defeat others.

“There’s only a limited number of spells that are truly useful in the basic versions.”

And disrupting ray is one of them. I use this quite often. Reasons why? May you ask?
1. The level. It is a level 2 spell!!
2. Reduces target, enemy troop’s defense rating by three. Spell may be cast on same troop repeatedly.
3. Duration: The whole battle!
This is only in the basic effect, and you don’t use this spell often!!!???

“You’re wrong. This spell works for a number of rounds equal or your spellpower.”

Or 1 round. How about if your spellpower is currently at 0, you’ve visited the mage guild in your chosen castle and learnt forgetfulness. Then it is 1 round. But, averagely, by the time you get forgetfulness, you would have maybe something like 5 spellpower, or just a bit over.

“It’s a level 3 spell. Unfortunately not usable on titans due to mind control immunity. But great in Marksmen and Grand Elves. (and on many other creatures too.)
I believe I had a ballista and a few Archangels, and took out a legion of marks men using this spell.
(Expending something like 20 HP)”

You have to making this up, or exaggerating. You would not go into a battle against a legion of marksmen with a few archangels. Also when you used this spell, you must have had at leats 15 spellpower, otherwise it wouldn’t last. But the main reason is, the marksmen have only lost their ability to shoot, not their ability to attack. So when the archangel came to attack, the marksmen would retaliate with the daggers, and that, being enough to kill 2 or 3 Archangels. (Considering there was about 200 in every stack at least. And is it worth defeating a legion of Marksmen, while risking your hero on forgetfulness. Nobody would possess an army of Marksmen for castle sieges, only in the adventure map would that happen. But what is the gain? An extra gem pond, maybe. But is it worth the trouble? NO!

“This one needs its level decreased (Mirth) And so do sorrow, fortune, and misfortune. They should be level 1 for basic effects, and level 3 or 4 for mass effects. For morale, the single unit should be level 1, and mass version, level 3. Mind you, morale will work a bit differently in Heroes IV, and that may affect how the spell will look like.”

I agree on all points, there Djive. The morale could be less important, or it could be more significant. I hope it is the latter, personally. In real battles, morale has a great effect on what the outcome is.

“Recall, that all of these spells will only be in one sphere, and won’t be commonly available.”

Yes, I heard that before. I personally think that this is good, since the spells will become more unique and exclusive.

“Most schools should have no direct damage spells.”

Not really. I think that Death magic, (even though the Asylum is my favourite castle) should have direct damage, since it has been in the past. (Death Wave)
If no other castle has it, it would give the Asylum more of an advantage, since direct damage spells are more powerful than summoning or enhancing spells in a combat instance.

“You don’t like which gives the same attribute score bonus, works against all creatures, works against all creatures, and gives you + 4 speed?”

Yep. I like spells, which focus on a creature in particular. Slayer is used for a different purpose than Prayer, and I like it for those reasons. Also, if you cast Slayer on a Chaos Hydra, and 7 level sevens surround him, the ffect would really be devastating.

“In heroes 4, they would likely have these, and MANY, MANY more spells. (That’s what you get for making spells unique.)”

I meant if they would fit into the categories now available in Heroes of Might and Magic 4. Pretty sure they will, though.

Well, its practically been Djive and I the whole way through this thread. Spells are an important part of Heroes and they will continue to be.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted October 28, 2001 07:21 AM

That's a Gnoll is it? Then what's Wyvern's portrait supposed to be of?

That's a pretty cute fuzzy wuzzy little dog though, err.. gnoll.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 28, 2001 11:23 AM bonus applied.

Quote:

Yes, but I think they should be combined in 1 spell, if they aren’t already. This would make room for more spells and then in turn have more playability.

=> You can wish for what you want. I prefer the two spell approach myelf.

Not really, Slayer is especially attributed to level seven creatures, and it gives you +8 attack.

=> IMO, the difference between +8 Attack and +4 Attack and +4 Defence is very small. Meaning the spells have the same power, attribute wise.

Say if you have a titan, original speed = 11. +4 from Prayer = 15. Then if the opponent casts slow, its speed gets halved to 7.

=> I'm not sure exactly how the two compares, but if you cast Haste instead of Prayer, you would lose the effect of the Haste altogether. That is Slow replaces Haste. It dosn't replace Prayer. (So I'm talking about true opposites like Morale vs. Sorrow, Fortune vs. Misfortune, Bless vs. Curse, Bloolust vs. Weakness and Haste vs. Slow.)

I would see your point if something else was increased, such as HP or the amount of damage dealt. It is going to have to have a longer duration long before you can start doing damage in the long-term, including serious damage.

=> Normally, you cast Prayer primarily for the speed post and for the advantage of having all your creatures reach the opponent when he doesn't expect it. Having the opponent attack you when you don't expect it is BAD (normally it's impossible to place your creatures out of range, and because of the boost in speed the likelihood is high that all of the opponents creatures will act before you can act again.).

Having him attack you with +4 Attack (likely translates to +20% damage) is devastating.

Also, when you are that high level, maybe 10, Prayer’s effects may not be very beneficial towards you, since the attack and defense of your creatures have already greatly increased. If you choose a might hero, your spell power will not be very high, reducing the duration even further.

=> You get an additional +5% damage until the Attack-Defence difference is 60. This translates to nearly always. The duration for Prayer is the same as for Slayer. If your Spellpower is low, then this affects all your other spells too... I mean every spell you cast gets a shorter duration. A level 10 Might hero may not even have the Wisdom required to learn Prayer and the same goes for Slayer.

Also lower level spells last for a longer time, since they don’t combine many attributes.

=> They LAST for exactly the same time. # of Rounds = Spellpower. No difference.

The level is also to high, and too expensive, they are better than a single, low level spell, but not much. You’re also sacrificing great spells like disrupting ray and haste, as I said before.

=> No. I'm not sacrificing them. They can be in the game too. I want (almost) all spells to be in the game and a lot more too. I haven't said that they should remove any spells from the game, I'm saying the opposite... You were however saying that Prayer, Sorrow, Forgetfullness and some others should be dumped.

=> Then lots of more spells approach becomes possible because the spells are unique to each school. This automatically implies you have to have many more spells to choose from., or people will quickly get bored with a meagre selection in the Mage Guilds.

For B), you could use implosion, and you would be much better off.

=> I believe you misunderstood the question. Anyway, it's wrong to believe that Implosion is always better than Prayer. Play the 'Lord of War' or another big campain and you'll find Implosion costly and all but useless. Of course in big campains like this you have Expert in all your Magic skills.


Exactly, then why should you use Prayer, and take the long way around, when you could just hit them with a meteor shower, which costs the same, but your creatures do not have to get into the thick of things to defeat others.

=> If you have very big stacks then enhancing the creature will result in more damage than the spell. And the enhancement will last for several rounds. Thew ay they balance this out in Heroes 3 is by "mass spells". In heroes 4, you'll have to learn two schools of magic to have the choice to cast damage vs. enhancing spells.

This is only in the basic effect, and you don’t use this spell often!!!???

=> No, because once the target is dead the spell is of no use and the computer generally divide up to 5-7 stacks. I use Bless, Shield, Curse, Slow and Spells like that instead.

Or 1 round. How about if your spellpower is currently at 0, you’ve visited the mage guild in your chosen castle and learnt forgetfulness. Then it is 1 round. But, averagely, by the time you get forgetfulness, you would have maybe something like 5 spellpower, or just a bit over.

=> No Hero starts with Spellpower 0, and the ways to get 0 spellpower is very limited. Usually I prefer my magic Heroes to cast powerful spells. Five rounds is Ok. That may decide the battle. However, if I'm that short of spellpower I'm not likely to cast a high level spell. I'm likely low in Knowledge too so cheap level 1 and level 2 spells would be preferred.

“It’s a level 3 spell. Unfortunately not usable on titans due to mind control immunity. But great in Marksmen and Grand Elves. (and on many other creatures too.)
I believe I had a ballista and a few Archangels, and took out a legion of marks men using this spell.
(Expending something like 20 HP)”

You have to making this up, or exaggerating. You would not go into a battle against a legion of marksmen with a few archangels.

=> There as a typo above. It should of course be Mana and not HP. I would if I had good enough spells. I couldn't find this one again, but instead I tested with seven stacks of Grand Elves totalling 2345 creatures. I beat them with 6 AA, 8 Champions, and 1 Ballista losing 1 AA and 5 Champions. Hero had speciality in Ballista Exp Fire, Water, Leadership Wisdom, Offence & Artillery (Berserk & Prayer not available, though I had Frenzy, Earth Elemental and Sacrifice but didn't use them. All other spells were level 3 or less.)

=> Hero stats were: 43 Attack, 11 Defence, 14 Spellpower, 11 Knowledge. (71 mana available at start, 5 remaining at end.) Began with Forgetfulness, Blind, Blind, Blind, Cure, Cure, Cure, Cure ....

Also when you used this spell, you must have had at leats 15 spellpower, otherwise it wouldn’t last. But the main reason is, the marksmen have only lost their ability to shoot, not their ability to attack. So when the archangel came to attack, the marksmen would retaliate with the daggers, and that, being enough to kill 2 or 3 Archangels. (Considering there was about 200 in every stack at least.

=> You're forgetting the Ballista. It's what's dealing the bulk of the damage.

And is it worth defeating a legion of Marksmen, while risking your hero on forgetfulness. Nobody would possess an army of Marksmen for castle sieges, only in the adventure map would that happen. But what is the gain? An extra gem pond, maybe. But is it worth the trouble? NO!

=> A gempond guarded by a Legion of Marksmen? I don't know what maps you play but with a guard like that I'd expect one of the following:
1 A quest artifact
2 A spell scroll of DD or Fly or Tome of Elemental Magic
3 A hill fort
4 A relic
5 Access to a vital area...

=> And when trying to take someone's last castle, I'm sure a castle player would have both Marksmen and Zealots in their army.

“Most schools should have no direct damage spells.”

Not really. I think that Death magic, (even though the Asylum is my favourite castle) should have direct damage, since it has been in the past. (Death Wave)

=> I didn't include Death Wave and Destroy Undead (and name variants) in the concept of direct damage spells. They're specialized spells for dealing with living / undead creatures. Death Wave should be in Death Magic, and Destroy Undead in Life Magic so we agree about these specific spells.

=> What I was trying to say is that Magic Arrow, Lightning Bolt, Meteor Shower, Fireball (and versions of these) should all be included in Chaos Magic, and no corresponding spells should be in the other schools. (Apart from perhaps 1 or 2 spells in Nature Magic and Death Magic, and this only because they're allied to Chaos Magic.)

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 30, 2001 08:59 AM

Finishing Point

Could we please stop talking about avatars in this thread? Djive’s avatar is a gnoll with named Merist, from the Fortress, and Wyvern’s is a male lizardmen might hero named Korbac, also from the Fortress. Now that I’ve cleared that up, shall we press on?

“IMO, the difference between +8 Attack and +4 Attack and +4 Defence is very small. Meaning the spells have the same power, attribute wise.”

Yes, but that very small difference may be what decides the battle. EG: I sometimes lose a battle by 1 stack, with about 5 hp left, and the other stack also has the same amount left. If I used prayer, yes, I would have won, and lost less units. But if I used slayer(talking about level 7 here) It would have saved me even more units. And speed does not really come into the equation, since all level 7 creatures are so fast, they can mover around the battlefield at will.


“I'm not sure exactly how the two compares, but if you cast Haste instead of Prayer, you would lose the effect of the Haste altogether. That is Slow replaces Haste. It dosn't replace Prayer. (So I'm talking about true opposites like Morale vs. Sorrow, Fortune vs. Misfortune, Bless vs. Curse, Bloolust vs. Weakness and Haste vs. Slow.)”

It may not replace the casting of slow, but it still affects it in the same way. 11+5 = 16. Slow = 11-5 = 6. Prayer = 15-8 = 7. So it really doesn’t make a difference.

“Normally, you cast Prayer primarily for the speed post and for the advantage of having all your creatures reach the opponent when he doesn't expect it. Having the opponent attack you when you don't expect it is BAD (normally it's impossible to place your creatures out of range, and because of the boost in speed the likelihood is high that all of the opponents creatures will act before you can act again.)”

Although, speed in turn makes you closer to them, and saves them time from getting to you, or both coming together in the middle of the battlefield. Although, with ranged attackers, that is the only reason I would use Prayer really.

“Having him attack you with +4 Attack (likely translates to +20% damage) is devastating.’

I really don’t think so. Take a Gorgon. Original statistics 15 attack, 15 defence, and 6 speed. With an average might hero; 19 attack, 19 defence, and 6 speed. Then when you cast Prayer: 23 attack, 23 defence, and 10 speed, which is slighter higher than a Chaos Hydra. The attack and defence increases by 17.391% which is slightly shyer than 20%, and would have no real affect, but according to you, it would be devastating. Hmmmm.
But as you said, you cast this spell primarily for the speed boost. This gives you + 40%, and this would be the main reason you use this spell, and even then, you could use haste, and get a better result (50% faster) until the opponent casts slow. Is prayer really worth 11 extra spell points? IMO, No.

“You get an additional +5% damage until the Attack-Defence difference is 60. This translates to nearly always. The duration for Prayer is the same as for Slayer. If your Spellpower is low, then this affects all your other spells too... I mean every spell you cast gets a shorter duration. A level 10 Might hero may not even have the Wisdom required to learn Prayer and the same goes for Slayer.”

Not really, Some spells lsast for two rounds. While others are instant, and some go for the whole battle, such as DISRUPTING RAY!!  So why waste time casting Prayer, cast the smaller spells that have a longer duration.

“They LAST for exactly the same time. # of Rounds = Spellpower. No difference.”

Ah, you’re wrong there, Djive. On one my favourite spells, Disrupting Ray, lasts for the whole battle.

No. I'm not sacrificing them. They can be in the game too. I want (almost) all spells to be in the game and a lot more too. I haven't said that they should remove any spells from the game, I'm saying the opposite... You were however saying that Prayer, Sorrow, Forgetfullness and some others should be dumped.

Ah, you misread me. You’re sacrifing the use of these lower level spells if you have to wait before you get to Prayer,as in using those spells instead of something else.

“I believe you misunderstood the question. Anyway, it's wrong to believe that Implosion is always better than Prayer. Play the 'Lord of War' or another big campain and you'll find Implosion costly and all but useless. Of course in big campains like this you have Expert in all your Magic skills.”

In that passage, ever- did I say that Implosion was better than prayer? No. I only did for that circumstance. Wouldn’t you rather use Implosion instead of Prayer there?
And to answer that question, yes, Implosion sometimes can be useless, when there are many weak stacks scattered. That’s when i like using my favourite spell, Armaggedon. The only time that really doesn’t have much effect, is when you are low on creatures, and so is your opponent, or you opponent is low on creatures.

“If you have very big stacks then enhancing the creature will result in more damage than the spell. And the enhancement will last for several rounds. Thew ay they balance this out in Heroes 3 is by "mass spells". In heroes 4, you'll have to learn two schools of magic to have the choice to cast damage vs. enhancing spells.”

I really don’t think so. You must take the time to react with prayer, and they will have the chance to attack with their initial strength. While if you use a damage spell, it would have reduced their numbers on the first turn, meaning they’ll have less creatures, and will inflict less damage per turn.

“No, because once the target is dead the spell is of no use and the computer generally divide up to 5-7 stacks. I use Bless, Shield, Curse, Slow and Spells like that instead.”

How are the basic effects of these spells different to that of disrupting ray? If I’m not mistaken, Disrupting Ray subtracts 5 from a creatures defence. While the others, add or subtract 3.

“No Hero starts with Spellpower 0, and the ways to get 0 spellpower is very limited. Usually I prefer my magic Heroes to cast powerful spells. Five rounds is Ok. That may decide the battle. However, if I'm that short of spellpower I'm not likely to cast a high level spell. I'm likely low in Knowledge too so cheap level 1 and level 2 spells would be preferred.”

LIKELY low in knowledge. You just may not have taken the time to increase your spellpower. One of the things I try to gain is knowledge. Not necessarily spellpower all the time. It can happen.

You're forgetting the Ballista. It's what's dealing the bulk of the damage.

Yes, but when the Arch Angels or the Champions go to attack, they would nearly get killed instantly. They can still use their daggers for hand to hand combat, which inflicts ½ damage, which is still enough to kill them. And its true. You didn’t beat them with forgetfulness, you used blind and cure, and I’m sure some other spells to whittle them down. Also, if your two stacks of creatures die, you die, ballista or not.

“A gempond guarded by a Legion of Marksmen? I don't know what maps you play but with a guard like that I'd expect one of the following:
1 A quest artifact
2 A spell scroll of DD or Fly or Tome of Elemental Magic
3 A hill fort
4 A relic
5 Access to a vital area... “

Yes. When you’ve been playing a map for a long time, and your well into the game, there are sure to be mines you haven’t flagged. This is when the populations increase so much that they can become legions. It has happed to me several times. Even with the Gorgons blocking the way to the Library of Enlightment in the Realm of Chaos.
Although I didn’t mean a Gem pond specifically, it could have been another mine, or a few treasure chests and resources.

“I didn't include Death Wave and Destroy Undead (and name variants) in the concept of direct damage spells. They're specialized spells for dealing with living / undead creatures. Death Wave should be in Death Magic, and Destroy Undead in Life Magic so we agree about these specific spells.”


“What I was trying to say is that Magic Arrow, Lightning Bolt, Meteor Shower, Fireball (and versions of these) should all be included in Chaos Magic, and no corresponding spells should be in the other schools. (Apart from perhaps 1 or 2 spells in Nature Magic and Death Magic, and this only because they're allied to Chaos Magic.) “

I agree with all of those points. More direct damage spells shoud be spread among Chaos Magic and Death Magic, since they are quite similar to each other.
Here are a few ideas and opinions:

Haste and other enhancing spells-Nature Magic
Battle Spells, especially Armaggedon-Chaos Magic

Specific attacks-Death and Life Magic

Adventure spells like Dimension Door- Order Magic

An idea for a new spell:
Blitzkrieg: Your desired stack gets to attack first, and with more power.
Duration: Instant
Cost: 12

Conclusion: I think prayer should be substituted for a more updated spells which helps you in more areas, and is more unique, and I am quite happy to keep forgetfulness if it Is updated and affects ranged attackers from both sides, and only lasts for the persons number of stacks. (A good way of getting the rounds too high.)

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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UnkaHaakon
UnkaHaakon


Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
posted October 30, 2001 09:15 AM

Offtopic: Bonuses applied

Speaking of history repeating itself...this thread reminds me of some of the 'dialogues' Oldtimer and Sha_men had earlier this summer. Bonuses have been given to both The_Hydra and Djive for this stirring debate. It's interesting to see how they take known information about H4 and spells from H3 , and take off from there.

Although the length of the posts here may discourage some, I urge you all to read them, and throw in your own ideas.

I'd be interested to see some more thoughts about Order magic illusions and Nature summonings.

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 30, 2001 06:59 PM
Edited By: Djive on 22 Nov 2001

"And speed does not really come into the equation, since all level 7 creatures are so fast, they can mover around the battlefield at will."

Erhmm.. Chaos Hydra: speed 7, Ancient behemoth: speed 9. Fast???

I've been in combats where it means a lot. Sometimes I reload games to try alternative stratigies because I find the setup interesting. In some of those games, I noticed that I lost combats when the opponent cast Prayer and attacked and won the same combat when the opponent cast something else and waited it out.

"It may not replace the casting of slow, but it still affects it in the same way. 11+5 = 16. Slow = 11-5 = 6. Prayer = 15-8 = 7. So it really doesn't make a difference."

I haven't tested this, but wouldn't this depend on the order you cast things? If you begin with Slow and continue with Prayer would that not be 11-5+4 = 10?

"I really don't think so. Take a Gorgon. Original statistics 15 attack, 15 defence, and 6 speed. With an average might hero; 19 attack, 19 defence, and 6 speed. Then when you cast Prayer: 23 attack, 23 defence, and 10 speed, which is slighter higher than a Chaos Hydra. The attack and defence increases by 17.391% which is slightly shyer than 20%, and would have no real affect, but according to you, it would be devastating. Hmmmm."

=> The % bonus you would get to dealt damage is too situational to count out in a general case. The actual increase depends on what damage you were doing before and what damage you do afterwards. This would be a fairly advanced discussion for the Library.

But as you said, you cast this spell primarily for the speed boost. This gives you + 40%, and this would be the main reason you use this spell, and even then, you could use haste, and get a better result (50% faster) until the opponent casts slow. Is prayer really worth 11 extra spell points? IMO, No.


=> You have a few ways to use Prayer.
1. You're seriously overpowering an opponent, yet some of the opponents' monsters will act before some of your shooters, and/or all your ground based critters can't reach the enemy lines. Then cast Prayer to get the opponent withing range and to allow your shooters to fire before the enemy gets a turn. I've prevented many enemy heroes from fleeing this way.
2. To gang up on an enemy. The extra speed allows more of your armies to reach the same enemy, and since it can retaliate only once....
3. As a general boost to your attack and defence which can only be countered by Dispel.

"Not really, Some spells last for two rounds. While others are instant, and some go for the whole battle, such as DISRUPTING RAY!!  So why waste time casting Prayer, cast the smaller spells that have a longer duration."

I was referring to spells like Bless, Curse, Bloodlust, Weakness, Shield, Stoneskin, Morale, Sorrow, Fortune, Misfortune, Forgetfulness, Prayer and Slayer.

"Ah, you misread me. You're sacrifing the use of these lower level spells if you have to wait before you get to Prayer,as in using those spells instead of something else."

No. I would use Bless, Curse, Bloodlust, Weakness, Shield and Stoneskin. In many cases these would be my first choice. Slow and Haste are also popular choices.

Armageddon is a nice spell. Especially when your creatures are immune to it.

"I really don't think so. You must take the time to react with prayer, and they will have the chance to attack with their initial strength. While if you use a damage spell, it would have reduced their numbers on the first turn, meaning they'll have less creatures, and will inflict less damage per turn."

I don't wait if I cast prayer. It's an attacking spell. If I cast it all my units will close in for combat and attack. And because of the speed-boost the likely thing is that they'll act after each other before the opponent can cast a spell or do something.

How are the basic effects of these spells different to that of disrupting ray? If I'm not mistaken, Disrupting Ray subtracts 5 from a creatures defence. While the others, add or subtract 3.

On advanced level and on expert level they add or subtract 6. The basic effect is 3.

"LIKELY low in knowledge. You just may not have taken the time to increase your spellpower. One of the things I try to gain is knowledge. Not necessarily spellpower all the time. It can happen."

Some Knowledge is needed but once I reach 5 or so I'm preferring Spellpower insted of Knowledge. Yet often there's no choice involved here. Only one structure actually allows you to make a choice.

"Yes, but when the Arch Angels or the Champions go to attack, they would nearly get killed instantly. They can still use their daggers for hand to hand combat, which inflicts ½ damage, which is still enough to kill them. And its true. You didn't beat them with forgetfulness, you used blind and cure, and I'm sure some other spells to whittle them down. Also, if your two stacks of creatures die, you die, ballista or not."

It's virtually impossible to beat them without the use of Forgetfullness. It may be possible with Berserk and some luck... I somehow doubt it since the Elves will be attacking each other mostly in hand-to-hand combat, and they don't do enough damage.

One obvious advantage with Forgetfulness is that all damage dealt by the Ballista will not have the range penalty so it will down twice as many Elves.

If it's not clear, after cating Forgetfulness I wait both with the AA and the Champions. The Elves will advance across the terrain. If I recall correctly the elves do a bit more than 100 damage to the AA. Their counterattack will kill 1 champion but not much more. Note: a ranged attack from the elves will do 200+ damage, and within range 400-500 damage. Therefore, you cannot really allow even one single stack to make a normal ranged attack.

"Conclusion: I think prayer should be substituted for a more updated spells which helps you in more areas, and is more unique,"

More areas???? How many other spell helps you with 3 attributes?

Uniqueness? Prayer is unique in many ways. Failing to understand your point. Just the fact that it helps three attributes is unique. Prayer has more uses than almost any other spell I know of.

"and I am quite happy to keep forgetfulness if it Is updated and affects ranged attackers from both sides, and only lasts for the persons number of stacks. (A good way of getting the rounds too high.)"

Are you trying to make the spell a lot less usable? Didn't you say the spell was weak before? Why do you want to make it worse? Making it affect your own units would severly hamper it's effectiveness. I don't say it shouldn't but shouldn't other similar spells also affect your own units?
Would you consider casting, say Curse, if it affected your own units??

I didn't really understand what you wanted to say in the last sentence.

Anyway since Spellpower is gone, I believe spell duration will go down. Not sure with how much though.

Edited the post to bring it back to top.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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grythandril
grythandril


Famous Hero
who is a Chaotic Wizard
posted November 22, 2001 10:30 PM

Since two threads about Heroes IV the spells have been created.  One by myself and other TheHydra (3 mins after) i will copy most of the contents accross to prevent any confusion for the other viewers.

I assume that some of the spells in heroes III will be improved.

eg

MAGIC ARROW spell in heroes 2 was upgraded to heroes 3, so will that be available again and if so i wonder what the new version will be like.

I would like to see the DESTROY UNDEAD spell improved. I would like it to be like PRAYER spell where shafts of Holy light descend down on the undead creatures during battle.
However since magic skills are linked to other magic ie order and chaos.

damage range from
70% damage to death creatures,
30% to chaos and
10% to order.
Although this might be deemed as too complicated a system for the game.

I know the TOWN PORTAL spell is being toned down but I would like to see a little animation to occur. When a player casts this spell, i would like to see a swirling bright white portal appear infront of the hero as they walk and enter the portal before apearing in the town they chose.

For the FIREBALL spell I would very much like to see the hero cast it from there hands as the throw it into the enmey stask like the MAGIC ARROW spell. Then watch it as it explodes around them.

EARTHQUAKE spell could be used for battle as well as in a castle siege. I would like to see large cracks open randomly on the ground ain and any creature near or ontop of the cracks when they appear would lose some of its creatures and then for the cracks to close again.

These are such suggestions.


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Might is Power
Magic is Power
Honor is Power

Power Rules Above All

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grythandril
grythandril


Famous Hero
who is a Chaotic Wizard
posted November 22, 2001 10:38 PM

Sorry TheHydra i have made a mistake about the time on my message i read it wrong so anyone reading the first part of my message ignore it as it is completely innacurate.

Once again my Apologies
____________
Might is Power
Magic is Power
Honor is Power

Power Rules Above All

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