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| Thread: Censorship - No thanks |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted November 14, 2007 06:16 PM |
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What's this?
If swearing was allowed here all we would see from the teeny boppers is one long chorus line of expletives. No thanks.
Now go back to the Library you. Sheesh, only thing worse than Internet Cassanovas are Internet Crusaders.
Edit: Now before you respond, please consider where your energies would be better directed...replying to me or convincing Xarfax to finish a game he starts.
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted November 14, 2007 10:09 PM |
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Edited by russ at 22:11, 14 Nov 2007.
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If swearing was allowed here all we would see from the teeny boppers is one long chorus line of expletives. No thanks.
Good point, the COC rule should stay.
HOWEVER, IMHO the mods should be more thoughtful about this rule. If there is a non-stop "chorus line of expletives", the mods should consider giving a penalty (only after a warning!!!). And maybe Val and more experienced mods should explain this to the new mods who are uncertain just about what enforcing the rules is and WHEN it should and when it should NOT be done.
I don't think penalties should be given without a warning every time someone says something like "I took s**t." in a non-offensive context.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted November 14, 2007 11:16 PM |
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Actually I disagree. This is a private place. It is owned by a single person, who has people who help them operate it. So this is Val's house, we are just guests. If Val wished to shut it down, it would shut down. Sure, another might open, but this one would only when Val wanted it to.
Yes, I agree your opinon is as important as mine. However, do not forget that Val has the right to his opinon also. As do the MODS. Your clothing example is non issue. Peoples looks : Fashion, attractiveness, ect has never influenced my thoughts on a person. I never judge by first impressions, but only after I get to know somebody. I know first hand how first impressions can be misleading.
As to foul language and intelligence, I do tie the two together. When somebody is talking and they start cursing, it seems as if they have ran out of intellingent things to say. The longer it goes, and the more they cuse, the more it causes me to think that they have nothing more to add to a conversation. However, this is just an opinon. You are free to have any opinon you wish. The CoC is spelled out before you accept membership. It is part of the membership and nobody forced you to accept a membership.
It would be like agreeing not to steal to gain admitance to a museum and then stealing once you got in and complaining about the rule when you got caught.
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Message received.
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted November 14, 2007 11:25 PM |
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I personally believe that by making these words something to fear and hide from, we give them more power to hurt than they should ever have.
Great point. I totally agree, these words are not and should not be offensive on their own.
Yes. But if you made them acceptable new words would take their place as insults and then people would just use them instead.
In fact it will probably happen eventually. The words will be accepted into modern english and then people will pick something else.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 17, 2007 06:39 PM |
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I guess its ok to tell someone to **** off as long as you dont use those exact words. Aparently im the only one here who believes the content is more important than the form. Pretty typical for the religious to dictate instead of arguing.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted November 19, 2007 02:59 PM |
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Edited by pandora at 15:10, 19 Nov 2007.
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Pretty typical for the religious to dictate instead of arguing.
Now you're just firing out of left field, where on earth did that come from - and what exactly do you mean by it?
I personally have two very different ways of looking at this topic.
As "myself" I agree with you in many ways (not so much trying to make this a religious thing now) but the rest of what you've said pretty much echoes the way I think. If we're talking about the real world, I don't think there's a place for censorship - all it does is breed ignorance - we need to stop trying to shield ourselves from things, and start looking at them for what they really are.
As moderator however, I feel that the rule makes my life a whole lot easier. You can't imagine the number of times I have been alerted by members who have seen a "bad word' on the forums - not just because they want to get that person a penalty, but a lot of people are offended by swears. If we lift the censor we get 1) a whole lot of angry people that the censor is gone and 2) chaos brought about by those who would certainly abuse it. I have no doubt that the quality of the forums would absolutely fall through the floor if we were to allow those words.
I've said it before, I do not like being "language police" here. I would sooner only pay attention to what people are saying , as opposed to nitpicking on how they say it. For the most part, that is how I read the forums anyways - it happens a lot (too often) that I don't even notice when people slip, but believe me I usually get a HCM letting me know 
And finally, all this talk about HC like it's a dictatorship is really starting to get to me. I have spent countless hours with Valeriy discussing everything HC - and when he isn't around I try to update him on all of the different points surrounding whatever the discussion of the day is about. I find it truly insulting to hear it said that there is a "because I say so" attitude here. I've endured many hours of personal grief over this forum just because I do care how people think and feel here. ( I know, it seems I'm an idiot ) And I think I have always made myself open to whatever criticism people have of me - without ever just randomly penalizing those who disagree with me...
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted November 20, 2007 11:28 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 11:38, 20 Nov 2007.
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Odd I thought we were debating. Also, mind telling me who is making it about religion? Pandora's post said it more elequently then I could, but I do want to cover a few minor details.
I am against censorship in general. Especially against censorship of the freedom of speech. Everybody should be entitled to their opinon, and to express themselves however they want. We both agree on that.
What I don't agree on, is agreeing to something, then turning around and complaining about it. Yes, that's my issue, not yours. I go 55 and no faster when speedlimit signs say 55. I never run red lights or stopsigns. If I tell you I will do something, if it is not done check the morgue. Chances are, that is where I will be.
Trying to change the rules is admirable. Just realize right now you are one voice. Other voices are in opposition of what you propose. While your voice has equal right to be heard..it is one voice. Others have stated why they are against your proposal. Do their voices not matter?
With all due respect, your last post is a bit insulting and inaccurate. My opposition to your proposal has nothing to do with religion. It would indeed lower the bar on posts, and end up in the celler. Heroescommunity would not even be worth visiting anymore. It would turn into a cess pool. While some, like yourself, might control yourself, there are others who would not. Making it horrible for the rest of us.
@Pandora - I appologise if my comments have caused any grief. I never meant to insinuate that Val and the Mods were dictators. My point was that you, the rest of the mods, and Val's opinon on the matter should be also part of the equation. The good of the forums should come first and foremost.
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Message received.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted November 20, 2007 12:11 PM |
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Edited by Binabik at 12:14, 20 Nov 2007.
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If Val decides to shut down HC, does anyone feel that their rights would be violated? After all, Val would not be allowing you to express youself on his board.
Look, you can stand in the street in front of my house and make a speech, but I am under no obligation to provide you with a soapbox to stand on.
If I find an old soapbox in my basement, and carry it out to the street and say "Hey, I have this soapbox I'll let you use, but you have to agree not to say the word "duck" while standing on my box. Do you agree?". If you agree I hand you the soapbox and you are obligated to not say the word "duck". If you don't agree then I simply walk away and you can continue speaking without the use of my box. But in either case I have not violated your rights in any way. I have only refrained from providing you a box to stand on.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 20, 2007 03:23 PM |
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@Pandora: Quote:
Now you're just firing out of left field, where on earth did that come from - and what exactly do you mean by it?
To be honest I felt somewhat offended by The_Gootchs post. Im singlehandedly argueing my point of view here and then he just shows up with nothing interesting to add and tells me to leave and calls me an internet crusader. Noone even comments it. Knowing that the Gootch is religious (has had a conversation with god) I just felt that his comment was pretty typical for the religious way of thinking: "The truth is like this because god (I) says so and thats all that matters. Nothing you say can ever change that". Very destructive for any debate to act like that.
I have no facts to back this up but as I said, I believe that this censorship originates from the religious USA. Do you really think that its a coincident that this kind of censorship is common in the USA and it dosent exist in the much less religious Europe?
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As moderator however, I feel that the rule makes my life a whole lot easier.
As I said before: If thats the case thats a legitimate reson to keep the rule.
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And finally, all this talk about HC like it's a dictatorship is really starting to get to me
I feel we understand each other pretty well and that you understand my point of view but to be perfectly sure I would like to stress that I dont see HC as a dictatorship or anything like it. Some of the other posters dont seem to agree though, or maybe thats just the easiest way of arguing their case.
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What I don't agree on, is agreeing to something, then turning around and complaining about it.
Heres one example of the "because I say so" attitude.
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If Val decides to shut down HC, does anyone feel that their rights would be violated?
Heres another. Many people would feel violated.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted November 20, 2007 04:40 PM |
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@Pandora - I appologise if my comments have caused any grief. I never meant to insinuate that Val and the Mods were dictators. My point was that you, the rest of the mods, and Val's opinon on the matter should be also part of the equation. The good of the forums should come first and foremost.
I do understand that - and my comment wasn't made because I was particularly upset at anyone. It's just that for some time now people have been saying things to the effect that HC is a dictatorship and it does bother me. It's not so much that people would say it, its that people think that way. To me that represents a worse kind of censorship than our word block can have. If people feel like they have no right to voice their opinions because the Moderators and Admin object to that - then HC is in a bad way.
For example, in this thread Maretti is pretty much the only person speaking about why he doesn't like the censor. Sure, there is the odd word of agreement, but for the most part - it's all him. I know for certain that there are many members who feel as he does. What concerns me is that people are not speaking up for fear of being on a mod's "bad side" or perhaps even getting a penalty, I don't know. If people are of the mind that HC is a place where their opinions don't count - then there's no opportunity left for improvement here.
I just hope that it's understood by everyone that they can and should speak up when they feel something could use improvement. I think its a good thing that Maretti brought this up for discussion if its something that's on his mind - its far better to do that, than to just be upset about it and leave.
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To be honest I felt somewhat offended by The_Gootchs post.
I didn't really see it that he was slamming you or anything, just making a joke - that's why I didn't comment at it.
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If Val decides to shut down HC, does anyone feel that their rights would be violated?
I would be livid But that won't happen 
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 20, 2007 05:00 PM |
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I didn't really see it that he was slamming you or anything, just making a joke
Maybe its the fact that english is not my native language but I dont have a clue where the joke is. How is that a joke?
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted November 20, 2007 05:04 PM |
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Well, not so much a "joke" as such, what I meant was that I don't think the post was meant to be taken seriously - it seemed to me that he was just being .. well, himself
Sorry if you felt that it was taken too lightly, I just didn't believe that he was meaning to insult there.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted November 20, 2007 05:23 PM |
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Whoah Jeb!! I gots me a big'un here! Get yer bat!
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To be honest I felt somewhat offended by The_Gootchs post. Im singlehandedly argueing my point of view here and then he just shows up with nothing interesting to add and tells me to leave and calls me an internet crusader. Noone even comments it. Knowing that the Gootch is religious (has had a conversation with god) I just felt that his comment was pretty typical for the religious way of thinking: "The truth is like this because god (I) says so and thats all that matters. Nothing you say can ever change that". Very destructive for any debate to act like that.
I have no facts to back this up but as I said, I believe that this censorship originates from the religious USA. Do you really think that its a coincident that this kind of censorship is common in the USA and it dosent exist in the much less religious Europe?
Hi.
You remember that blurb do you about my conversation with god? Yeah well, I also addressed the skeptics as I'm a skeptic myself. I wouldn't consider myself very religious at all. I don't quote scripture. I'm as anti-evangelical as they come. Some candidate starts saying dumb things about how we should have more instances of god in government I vote against them.
Religious? Ow! Wah! You've hurt my feelings now! Who do I complain to about that?
Religious USA. It certainly seems like that what with the kind of president we have. I can assure you though there are plenty of secularists here who despise the kind of pro-god government we have and we're just waiting to kick these scoundrels out of office. Yes we might have more stringent rules regarding some things here. I guess we need them because we're not perpetually suckling the teet of socialism here. We also have a helluva lot more diversity here than in Wikingland, so we're gonna have our own challenges, and one way is to enforce notions of politeness in language.
But let me show you where you are wayyyy off. This is Val's board. Following me so far? I know English isn't your native language so I'll walk you through this. Val, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, is Russian and lives in New Zealand. Where in that equation do you see a redneck, stars n' stripes waving, despot who wants to keep you from using creative language on this board?
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted November 20, 2007 09:58 PM |
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lol gootch that was a good ! im really up on this statement and i fully support it!
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types in obscure english
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 20, 2007 10:47 PM |
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@The_Gootch: This is an american phenomenon. The american way is inspiring people all over the world, also in Russia and New Zealand. The US is also setting some international standarts so there is nothing contradictory in what I say.
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This is Val's board.
This is a community not one mans private property. Rules and influence can come from others than him.
About religious USA: How many of the candidates running for president would answer no if they were asked if they have a strong belief in god? Acording to Newsweek only 37% of americans would vote for an ateist as president even if he was top qualified in all (other) aspects. Religion has a huge influence on the moral standarts over there and that is what the censorship is about, moral standarts.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Lich_King
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted November 20, 2007 10:56 PM |
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That is where you are wrong, even if it is a community, this board is STILL Val's property. Untill you all start paying for server and board maintenence, you don't have right to call this board public property. Since Valeriy does all the maintainence and does pay for server, I believe he can call this board his property and shut it down, or delete all the accounts or ban certain people if he wants to. As for community, people choose to stay if they want, if they don't agree with rules they can just cease to visit thig board and find a better suiting one, I don't understand why it's such a fuss over a one rule, where mods are already really forgiving towards it.
And if we for example will eliminate the rule, that could cause loads of situations where you can be blamed for doing your job as it could be just be interpretated as "power trip" in a view of the offending person, as we would then act not according to a rule, but to our own conscience and understanding, thus eliminating the solid conduct support for our actions. And we know what happens when you act the way you think is "right"...
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted November 20, 2007 11:39 PM |
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People NEED a leader. They need some kind of ultimate rulemaker to look to in the end, and as far as they go valiery has done nothing i can complain about. So if we have a leader it might as well be valiery. Because when you need to decide on the mods and decisions valiery is the one to go too. Yes it could be someone else but it isnt and valiery is just fine.
Being leaderless just doesnt work. At the very least its been in our genetics for eons that one person is a leader and others are followers.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted November 21, 2007 07:46 PM |
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Edited by pandora at 23:04, 21 Nov 2007.
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I think a lot of people are misreading what's been said here. For starters, Maretti has been clear that if the reasoning behind the rule is to make moderating easier, then he accepts that. Secondly, what he said was
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This is a community not one mans private property. Rules and influence can come from others than him.
Yes, this message board is his property - but the community is what we all make it. Its the sharing of ideas, and the friendships we make etc that makes this forum a "community". Maretti simply said that influence can come from others - not that rules should be dictated by the public. That's very true, and that is the way it is. In the example of the word censor, long ago when I ran the Bastard tourney, that word was censored - I asked Valeriy if it could be lifted, so that we could talk about the tourney without it looking like we're swearing all the time, and he agreed. Likewise, there were several other words that were removed from the banned list after Svarog made a thread about them. Valeriy did not have to change anything, but he listened to what was asked and agreed that it would be fine.
Ultimately, all decisions that Valeriy makes are final. And that is absolutely his right, as this board is his property - and we are all here because he has let us share in it. But that does not mean that he is a dictator, it doesn't mean that he doesn't listen. Sometimes he has to make unpopular decisions, but he always does what he feels is best for HC. I personally think he does a great job - if I didn't, I wouldn't be here.
Nobody is saying that we shouldn't have a leader, or don't need one. Valeriy is the leader of this board, and there's nothing to dispute there.
Enough about that now Maretti also said:
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Religion has a huge influence on the moral standarts over there and that is what the censorship is about, moral standarts.
While I agree that religion does have a huge influence on moral standards, its certainly not the only influence. Who we are comes from where we've been, how we're raised. A person does not have to be religious to oppose foul language. I know many parents that are not at all religious, but who raise their children to be respectful and polite.
Just the other day my husband and I were watching a "Bad Boys of Poker" tournament, and there was a blurb about the language rules in poker halls. There are time penalties for using foul language, which increase with each incident. In example, swear once, you have to leave for 10 minutes, swear again and it's 20 minutes etc. The reason for that is nothing to do with religion. Its about maintaining peace. When people are cussing at each other, it tends to escalate bad tempers much quicker than speaking without using that language. In poker, its very easy to become extremely frustrated, and a little thing like having someone tell you to Eff off, can very easily become a big issue in a hurry.
I think the same holds true here - a lot of the time when there are disagreements on the board, trying to keep a cool head and express yourself without using swear words can stop a little argument from being a giant flame war. This is another way that the censor really does make a big difference for the moderators.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 01, 2007 04:10 PM |
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That is where you are wrong, even if it is a community, this board is STILL Val's property. Untill you all start paying for server and board maintenence, you don't have right to call this board public property. Since Valeriy does all the maintainence and does pay for server, I believe he can call this board his property and shut it down, or delete all the accounts or ban certain people if he wants to. As for community, people choose to stay if they want, if they don't agree with rules they can just cease to visit thig board and find a better suiting one, I don't understand why it's such a fuss over a one rule, where mods are already really forgiving towards it.
Replies like this one discourage discussion IMO. While I can't say with any right that this board is public property I still have the right to say it.
I agree with Maretti that the principal nature of such a rule is problematic.
I think some of you concern yourself too much and overestimate the effects of changes in the CoC. Rules/laws hold little value by themselves; the way they are interpreted and used is what matters. After all the Danish constitution gives the King the right to dissolve the parliament, but of course that is not the way it works.
How many members do you honestly think have read the CoC thoroughly?
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted December 01, 2007 05:25 PM |
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How many members do you honestly think have read the CoC thoroughly?
Me. I cant remember the tiniest scrap of it though.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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