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| Thread: Kosovo |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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baklava
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posted November 23, 2007 11:57 PM |
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Kosovo
Right.
You may or may not have heard of troublesome situations in Kosovo, a region in south Serbia which is strongly disputed between Serbian and Albanian authorities. The Albanian separatist movements request that Kosovo becomes independent from Serbia, while Serbian political top indicates that such events would mean both breaking of international laws and utter destabilization of the region (again).
Anyway. During the diplomatic phase, America has taken the Albanian, and Russia the Serbian side. Now that Albanian separatists 'promise' that they will declare independence on the 10th of December, no matter what the result of international diplomacy is, there is only one thing that can be seen on the horizon. And it involves bloodshed, as always.
Now, knowing how stubborn my people are, they will probably fight to death for the lost cause that is Kosovo. I mean, I sure as hell won't (patriotism isn't getting yourself killed for nothing), but there are people who will. On both sides.
Which means that, with Putin restoring the entire Cold War thingy around the globe, a new Russia-America semi-conflict will be opened over our backs.
And I hate it when that happens.
Just had to say all this somewhere 
Um, any opinions? Or something?
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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VokialBG
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posted November 24, 2007 08:20 AM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 08:20, 24 Nov 2007.
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Baklava, do you know what is this with Kosovo? Its like the Balkans in 14-15 century. We already have 2 Bulgarias here, soon we'll have 2 Serbias too.
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baklava
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posted November 24, 2007 09:35 AM |
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This will more be like 2 Albanias... We already have 2 Serbias, since Bosnia is populated mostly by Serbs (it's just that Muslim Serbs call themselves Bosniaks...) :\
Note to a foreigner.
If you ever wonder how complicated things can get, just visit the Balkans.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Binabik
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posted November 24, 2007 09:43 AM |
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Note from a foreigner:
What I remember about the last war was that it seemed like a free-for-all with everyone fighting everyone else. Yes, it was very confusing. I had no idea who was who. I had no idea who were the "good guys" and who were the "bad guys"...although I strongly suspected there weren't really any good or bad guys. Basically, from my point of view, it was mass confusion.
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baklava
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posted November 24, 2007 10:18 AM |
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You're absolutely right. Actually, NO ONE had any idea who was who. The old Yugoslavia got split equally between several demagogue warlords and everyone started fighting everyone. Peoples even fought among themselves. Utter chaos.
Which resulted in tens of thousands of deaths, colonies of refugees, and a senseless hatred between peoples who were brethren up to that point.
There were no good guys or bad guys. Bad guys formed the majority of every side.
And I'm afraid that will be the case with Kosovo, too. And there's no way anyone can stop it now. :\
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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frostwolf
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livin' in a bottle of vodka
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posted November 24, 2007 02:31 PM |
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There will always be some region in the world that will be disputed. As modern history shows, the smaller and less significant the region is, and the less and poorer the people fighting for it, the bloddyer the fight will be.
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What can you expect from a world where everybody lives because they're too afraid to commit suicide?
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted November 26, 2007 10:43 AM |
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Actually Baklava what I really like about your people is that they fight even for lost causes, unlike mine who is afraid to speak out his rights (cowards)
and nowadays were content to kissing the ..... of US so we can get in NATO and then the EU for entering there.
(what really pissed me off was that during the US bombardments in Serbia our moronic leaders gave the US permition to survolate our airpsace to attack our neighbours, because of that and many other kissing we are "accepted" as allies today)
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antipaladin
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of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted November 26, 2007 12:58 PM |
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Quote:
Actually Baklava what I really like about your people is that they fight even for lost causes, unlike mine who is afraid to speak out his rights (cowards)
and nowadays were content to kissing the ..... of US so we can get in NATO and then the EU for entering there.
(what really pissed me off was that during the US bombardments in Serbia our moronic leaders gave the US permition to survolate our airpsace to attack our neighbours, because of that and many other kissing we are "accepted" as allies today)
fear not,your people are not only to do so,i do hate polticas however it doesnt stop them to make of such so hiporeatciale.
i hope that Anapolise commity will give birth to peace.
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types in obscure english
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angelito
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posted November 26, 2007 01:07 PM |
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Quote:
..There were no good guys or bad guys. Bad guys formed the majority of every side.
Milosevic? Wasn't he the main reason for the whole balcan war?
And about good guys....wasn't Rugova one of the good ones?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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baklava
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posted November 26, 2007 02:37 PM |
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Quote:
Milosevic? Wasn't he the main reason for the whole balcan war?
Actually, Milosevic was at first regarded by the West as the "factor of peace and stability in the Balkans".  Cause he was useful to them at the time.
No one ever gave a rat's butt about what he's doing to his own people (trust me, he was as bad to Serbs as to everyone else), or what inner policy he leads (Socialist) as long as he danced the way they wanted him to.
Then various (Croatian, Bosnian, Slovenian etc) nationalist rebel movements started getting stronger. They all hurriedly took pro-western roles (or something that resembled that), so the West naturally chose to support them over the still socialist Milosevic. Somewhere along all that, Milosevic got nuts and got even more authoritarian. Which only strengthened the nationalist movements, which then all said how evil Serbian authorities oppress them (in truth, Serbs were no less oppressed by Milosevic's regime than anyone else, but it didn't matter).
Other major warlords of the war, the Croatian (Franjo Tudjman), the Bosnian (Alija Izetbegovic) etc. are mostly regarded as national heroes in their respective countries, and you probably never heard of them or their war crimes, cause everyone said that Milosevic was the sole bad guy in all that.
Please do not think I support Milosevic. I hate the bastard. But by "no good or bad guys", I meant no SIDE was bad by itself (in WW2, for instance, it was quite clear that the Germans were the bad guys and the Allies - good guys). Here, every side just wanted to live better, but they were lead by bad persons. If you'd fell better if I said EVERYONE was a bad guy, then so be it.
Everything could've been solved peacefully (like people like Rugova, Zoran Djindjic and some others preached), but there was just too much nationalism settled in everyone's souls over the years, so everything went to ****.
As it always does.
I am just afraid of history repeating. In my 16 years of life I've experienced a war, an economic disaster, tons of cheap national propaganda telling me my people are the sole good guys, tons of cheap American propaganda telling me my people are the sole bad guys, a NATO bombing, a revolution, and... I'm just tired. I want to see if it's possible to have at least a few years of peace here.
The last thing I want is another god damn war where two already small and meaningless peoples will DECIMATE each other for absolutely NO REASON except serving as a dog fight between two betting superpowers.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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russ
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blah, blah, blah
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posted November 26, 2007 07:14 PM |
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Quote:
for absolutely NO REASON except serving as a dog fight between two betting superpowers.
After we've liberated you from Turks (ONLY because Serbs were considered our "little brother"), after we tried, but failed to PROTECT YOU from NATO and USA (again, ONLY because of the old "little brother" thing), after some Russians fought on Serbian side as VOLUNTEERS during the Bosnian war (ONLY because of the "little brother" thing and their own ideals)... now that Russia is pretty much the ONLY Country that wants to stick for you while risking a lot of international hardship, you are saying that it is a DOG FIGHT BETWEEN TWO BETTING SUPERPOWERS?
Well, here is the truth. Your country has NOTHING. NOTHING OF VALUE. NOTHING worth fighting for, especially for Russians. Our country has enough problems as it is. And if the majority of Serbs feel that way about the only country that wants to protect them, then I hope that the Russian president and the majority of Russians (who feel that they need to protect their "little brother" and that Russia did not do enough during the 1998 bombings) tell you what you deserve to be told: "**** off, you're one your own now".
I'm out.
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baklava
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posted November 26, 2007 09:20 PM |
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Breathe, my characteristically hot-tempered friend.
Relax.
And stop jumping to conclusions.
I know that you were always trying to protect us, and I didn't mean to insult Russia or anything (trust me you have NO IDEA how much I like Russian people, for various reasons).
The American side has probably sided with Albanians cause they know that you are on our side and we on yours. That's one of the reasons. Taunting. Just like they taunted Russia when they bombed us, they taunt it now. To prove how superior the West is over the East.
Though now with Putin in power the situation gets a bit tougher for them.
Which is alright. Balance must be kept.
I hope now you get my point. In the entire Kosovo situation, you are responding to foreign pressure and taunting, and protecting (or at least trying to protect) my people. And for that, I am grateful. But the fact stands that, on the political level, this will sooner or later turn out to be an indirect showdown between Russia and USA.
But I don't blame you. I don't blame USA either, or anyone else. It's just the way things go.
I was merely stating that I am not delighted with what is going to happen. Or should I be? Maybe I'm ought to be overjoyed with a POTENTIAL ****ING SECOND VIETNAM IN FRONT OF MY HOUSE?
/Deep breath.
And finally, believe me, you have absolutely no idea how much people love Russia here. "Mother Russia", "Sister Russia", "our Russian friends". The only hope my people have for anything on the political level lies in Russia, and don't think I am not aware of it.
But whatever Russia or America does, it doesn't change anything. Senseless hatred over a worthless piece of land lingers on. And it just seems that everybody wants blood. People will suffer again, and no one will accomplish anything.
And it doesn't even matter in the long run.
People come, misunderstand, spit, and leave.
As always.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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russ
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blah, blah, blah
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posted November 26, 2007 10:31 PM |
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Edited by russ at 22:32, 26 Nov 2007.
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Quote:
The American side has probably sided with Albanians cause they know that you are on our side and we on yours. That's one of the reasons. Taunting. Just like they taunted Russia when they bombed us, they taunt it now. To prove how superior the West is over the East.
Though now with Putin in power the situation gets a bit tougher for them.
Yes, you are right, I think so too, the most important reason for choosing Serbia as the arch-nemesis was what you described.
However, this is not 1998. Putin will not allow the second round of "lets just all bomb Serbia". You do not need to start shooting to make a point. While everyone likes picking on someone small and defenseless, noone likes getting into a real FIGHT, because in a real fight your opponent(s) can actually hurt YOU(*). And Putin is the leader who will make whatever country that considers itself big bad bully understand that this WILL be a FIGHT, not just another round of target practise. Whether it will involve placing Russian military instructors, peacekeepers and anti-aircraft defenses in Serbia, or cutting off some pipelines to prevent certain countries from making hasty decisions, something WILL be done this time.
*Note: some trigger happy idiots do not use logic and never think about the consequences, but lets hope that the time of those will pass.
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mvassilev
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posted November 26, 2007 11:29 PM |
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If the US didn't care about Kosovo, Putin wouldn't care about Serbia.
If Putin didn't care about Serbia, the US wouldn't care about Kosovo.
See how that works out? But neither side is going to back down.
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watcher83
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Child of Malassa
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posted November 27, 2007 11:17 AM |
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a conspiracy theory here but
maybe Kosovo is important because through it could go some new pipes bringing oil/petrol/gas from the now almost american controlled middle east into the kosovo controlled region (cheaper, safer route)
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Moonlith
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If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted November 27, 2007 01:40 PM |
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I don't think there's much room for another old war between Russia and America. As it is, Russia is crippled, and those apparent testflights recently are no more than attempts at showing they are still there and powerfull.
Even so, a counterweight for America's world-dominating-politics wouldn't be too bad, as much as I hate to think your region is just being used for it, Baklava.
It's a nasty situation, that's for sure. But I also fear bloodshed might be inevitable...
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russ
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blah, blah, blah
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posted November 27, 2007 04:30 PM |
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Edited by russ at 18:35, 27 Nov 2007.
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Now, lets work this out...
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If the US didn't care about Kosovo, Putin wouldn't care about Serbia.
SOOOO NOT TRUE. When did you leave Russia? Have you ever even lived there? Serbs have always been associated with the Russians. Our people are very close. If you asked most RUSSIANS about the Serbian war, the most common reply would most likely be "our government dumped them in 1998  ". Whether Putin is supporting Serbia because he feels that way too (most likely), or to make the people who voted for him happy, he is doing the right thing. There is no "Putin cares about them because US cares about them" bull**** in any part of the equation.
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If Putin didn't care about Serbia, the US wouldn't care about Kosovo.
Now, this one is true to some extent. If Serbia wasn't associated with Russia so much, NATO may have just let the conflict alone. However, since Serbia looks like the most powerful side of the conflict, there is still a good chance it would have been chosen as the villain, because it is much more honorable to defeat the bigger one and "protect the small one" (*note: only if the bigger one is not your ally or benefits you in some way).
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See how that works out?
No, I am afraid that the kindergarden view of the world mixed with ignorance and lack of knowledge can't really work it out.
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But neither side is going to back down
Unfortunately, this one actually seems like it might be true.
Here is the chain:
1) The Albanians will not back down (well, who would when you have NATO supporting you?)
2) The Serbs will not back down (and here is a solution to your concern, Baklava. Don't blame the superpowers. The peaceful (although, very very humiliating) solution lies in the hands of your own country, your own people and your own government.)
3) USA/NATO will not back down.
4) Russia will not back down.
5) Someone will have to back down eventually... lets just hope it will be as early as possible with minimum bloodshed and that it will be well... USA/NATO + Albanians
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baklava
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posted November 27, 2007 04:40 PM |
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Quote:
If the US didn't care about Kosovo, Putin wouldn't care about Serbia.
Just like Russ said, this is far from true.
Russia and Serbia have this unique brotherly attitude toward each other that existed before America was even founded...
It's more than an alliance, it's sort of, well, love.
I don't know of any similar case in the world, so I don't expect you'd understand... The only example that comes to my mind are Gondor and Rohan xD
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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mvassilev
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posted November 27, 2007 09:41 PM |
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Except that Gondor and Rohan are roughly of equal strength.
Yes, you have a point, I guess. But Russia and Serbia's relationship is similar to Russia and Bulgaria's, or Russia and any other Slavic Orthodox country. It's more of an alliance against outside forces, especially Turkey.
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VokialBG
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posted November 27, 2007 10:31 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 22:31, 27 Nov 2007.
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mvassilev is right
"If the US didn't care about Kosovo, Putin wouldn't care about Serbia.
If Putin didn't care about Serbia, the US wouldn't care about Kosovo." - so true who said that there are no Powers in international relations just like the old Austria-Hungary and Russia... there are Great powers now and they care about everything. They are the egoists.
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