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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Teaser: Moonlith's HOMM6 perception
Thread: Teaser: Moonlith's HOMM6 perception This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted December 15, 2007 12:04 PM
Edited by Moonlith at 12:07, 15 Dec 2007.

Poll Question:
Teaser: Moonlith's HOMM6 perception

Alright so, I am currently still working on a full version of H6 the way I would prefer to see it, complete with spellsystem, creature lineups, themes, favoured strategies, etc.

The reason I'm opening this topic is because I wanted to display a bunch of important changes I would want to force through, and see opinions on it so I may know what gets generally approved or frowned upon in the mainstream. Additionally, some may obtain inspiration from this, feel free.


Beforehand I want to point out I took a fairly open jump into this, preferring not to tie myself too much to certain restrictions of systems. An obvious restriction that I DID abide by of course is the 7 tiers per faction, obviously, there's not one faction which has more or less. Some other restrictions however may be broken now and then by one or two factions.

Right then, on to the main radical changes I perceive!

-------------------------------------------------------------------

- Spellsystem: There will be a total of 8 magic schools. Four specialized schools; Light, Dark, Destructive, and Arcane, and four Elemental schools; Fire, Water, Earth, and Air. Each spell is featured within one specialized and one elemental school. Fireball for example, is a Fire and Destructive spell. Each level in every school features 4 spells.

- Instead of Basic, Advanced, or Expert effects, spells have a level of Mastery. The level of Mastery is increased through magic schools and perks. Specialized schools give +1, +2, and +3 Mastery on basic, advanced, and expert levels, whereas Elemental schools give +1 on basic mastery, and +2 on advanced and expert levels. Perks give +1 mastery, making a maximum of 6 points of Mastery (although most higher-level spells have a maximum mastery of 5). Most spell effects on Mastery 3 are the same as Expert spell effects in H5. Fireball for example, gains +3 mastery points from Expert Destructive magic, +2 mastery points from Advanced or Expert Fire magic, and +1 mastery point from Destructive's perk for fire based spells. Thus, in order to obtain maximum effects for spells, both magic schools and the perk need to be learned. For spells that can have a Mass effect, the Area and Mass effect are usually obtained at Mastery 5 and 6.

For those interested, I've uploaded the complete list of Spells I wish to use at the bottom of this thread.

- Luck and Morale points give a 5 % chance. The Morale and Luck skills give +2, +4, and +6 Luck / Morale for Basic, Advanced and Expert levels. Maximum of 10 points (50% chance). The damage bonus for lucky attacks equals 67%.

- Each faction will feature 7 tier levels. Each faction will have 3 creatures that can be upgraded once, 2 creatures that have an alternative upgrade, 1 creature that can be upgraded twice, and 1 creature that cannot be upgraded at all. The tier level at which these type of upgrades are differs per faction. Let's face it, alternative upgrades are a nice idea but for a lot of units, they are just totally pointless. For some even one upgrade is overdone, whereas others can use an even further upgrade. It all depends on the individual creature, thus I went with this approach. As an example, the Haven lineup would look like:

1 Peasant >>> Pikeman >>> Halbardier (Superupgrade)
2 Archer >>> Marksman (Normal Upgrade)
3 Swordsman >>> Squire or Crusader (Alternative Upgrade)
4 Griffin >>> Imperial Griffin (Normal Upgrade)
5 Monk (No upgrade)
6 Cavalier >>> Paladin (Normal Upgrade)
7 Angel >>> Archangel or Avenger (Alternative Upgrade)

For some creatures, such as the Archer or the Monk, an alternative upgrade is just plain overrated and pointless.

Needless to say, the levels at which the types of upgrades are can determine the impact of the decisions you have to make. For example, Necropolis' alternative upgrades are at tier 1 and tier 3, which will have slightly less an impact on the outcome of the battle than Haven's tier 7 decision.

- The size of the battlefield will depend on the type of battle. Hero vs neutrals is played on 10x10 fields, Hero vs Hero on 14x14, and Castlesieges are on 20x16 fields.

- Starting initiative will be random only when fighting neutrals. For each hero's turn, its initiative is a random number between 10 and 15. Tier 7 units will have an average initiative of 9 to reduce their uber impact in battles (The Hydra will have the highest initiative amongst tier 7s: 10).

- Most towns will be race based, however, I don't consider this a requirement for a town to work or be succesfull. Fact is, at least one monster town should exist for those who dislike playing a race base town. Dungeon for example has always been meant as a theme-based monster town. It isn't too hard to build a storyline around it as to explain how such a faction manages to work.

- There will be might and magic heroes for each faction. There will be 8 skillslots for heroes, and each faction will present a unique Racial skill available to both its might and magic heroes, and two unique class skills, available to the individual magic and might hero. Not all heroes will automaticly start with these skills (in which case they will have a high chance of being offered on level up). The Racial skill can be learned by non-native heroes in the town for a fee, the class skills cannot.

- Necromancy will be done differently. I will keep the idea of Dark Energy, whereas the skeletons and Zombies will be cheap and all others much more expensive. The difference is that, first off, the Necromancy skill is a Racial Skill, and automaticly gives the spell Raise Dead. Both the magic and might hero can raise their undead by casting Raise Dead upon ENEMY corpses during combat. Although more may be raised than the hero has DE, only the troops for which there is sufficient DE will remain after combat. However, additionally, only the magic hero of Necropolis may raise undead troops AFTER combat (due to his personal class skill). Heroes without the Necromancy skill cannot raise undead from enemy corpses. The number of troops raised from enemy corpses is still limited by the maximum amount of HP that Raise Dead can animate. (By the way, Raise Dead is now a Dark Magic spell)

- There will be no unique "magic schools" for races. That means, no Warcries for orc heroes, or runes for dwarf heroes. Instead, such effects will appear as special abilities in one or perhaps even two creatures. In the Stronghold case, Ogres will be capable of singing Warsongs to boost their fellow troops.

- The Mage Guild will focus on 2 Magic Schools, one Specialized school and one Elemental school. The three exceptions are the three neutral towns; two of them only feature one specialized school, while the third features two elemental schools. In effect, this means spells that appear in both magic schools featured in the mage guild, have an automatic higher chance of appearing than others, as such spells could appear either from the specialized school or the elemental school.


Factions: Mage guild specialization: Native Terrain:
Haven Light + Water Grass
Sylvan Arcane + Water Grass
Academy Arcane + Air Tropic
Dungeon Destr. + Earth Underground
Inferno Destr. + Fire Ashland
Necropolis Dark + Earth Dirt
Stronghold Light Desert
Hive Dark     Swamp
Fortress Fire + Air Snow

For example, this implies Haven has a higher chance of obtaining spells that are Light and Water based. These being: Bless, Cure, Fortune, Teleportation, and Prayer. Seems to suit them in my eyes...

As you can see though, when it comes to factions I'm fairly conservative.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Take into account none of these concepts stated above are particularly set, I may change some things when I feel like it. For example, the choice of tossing Academy into a Desert, Snow, or Jungle tropic terrain is a very difficult one. A clear winter nighsky suits the mysterious, magical Academy perfectly (in fact it was a serious pain to find a suitable tier 6 troop for academy fitting a snow theme that made me decide to make them tropical for now. You can bet though the moment I find a unit that fits tier 6 and the snow theme, they'd be back in snow and I'll totally destroy the Norse faction (fortress).)

For those interested in more details, I've uploaded the details of the Spell Schools in rtf file format here: Magic School System V1.0

Feel free to leave comments / questions / whatever, I need inspiration

P.S.: I'm in direct competition with Alcibiades in HOMM6 concept design. Please stroke my ego and vote for me!

Responses:
Moonlith! You're awesome!!
Alcibiades! (though I haven't seen his work)
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted December 15, 2007 12:38 PM

I vote Moonlith!
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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted December 15, 2007 02:05 PM

Quote:
Feel free to leave comments / questions / whatever


Quote:
The damage bonus for lucky attacks equals 67%.


why 67?
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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted December 15, 2007 02:37 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Feel free to leave comments / questions / whatever


Quote:
The damage bonus for lucky attacks equals 67%.


why 67?

Because Alcibiades made note in a specific thread that with 100% bonus, Luck is far better than Morale which only gives 0,5 ini bonus. That aside, Morale bonusses, even at 100% ini bonus, still allow enemies to retalliate inbetween, whereas the double damage from Luck happens in one blow.

I don't remember the exact thread or the exact calculation, but Alci calculated Morale and Luck would be more even if Luck only gave 67% damage bonus.

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kraken
kraken


Famous Hero
I just love being elemental
posted December 15, 2007 03:21 PM

Well I like it that you're trying to make heroes 6 like most of us,but no offense I don't like 8 magic schools and some creatures with no upgrades.Like I said no offense.
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Adrius
Adrius


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
posted December 15, 2007 03:31 PM
Edited by Adrius at 15:32, 15 Dec 2007.

Love your idea, though i would prefer that all creatures have "superupgrades" and not just some. Also, if fortress (dwarves) will be in the game and still having the winter theme on their town, Academy should have some other theme. Why not just a mountain, not a snowy or tropical one, just a mountain. A real high one with clouds and stuff. (the clouds would fit well with their Air magic too)

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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted December 15, 2007 03:56 PM
Edited by Moonlith at 16:02, 15 Dec 2007.

As for the magic, 8 schools seems a bit much, but it isnt. All spells in Light, Dark, Destructive and Arcane are the same spells featured in Air, Water, Fire, and Earth, except differently arranged.

The 4 level 1 spells in Fire magic are the Fire based level 1 spells from Light (Energy burst), Dark (weakness), Destructive (firetraps), and Arcane (Fist of Wrath). That's basicly how it works. You can download the zipfile I uploaded and see for yourself

As for the upgrades, superupgrades are fun but again, it doesn't make sense for every unit. Zombies for example, I have a hard time picturing how such can be upgraded, let alone twice (They are Necro's non-upgradeable unit).

That aside, I like the diversity between upgrades.

No offense taken, btw

And as for Academy, I did a bit of experimenting with photoshop to create different background skies, and an evening tropical sky filled with stars had a very simular effect to a clear winter nightsky. Both seemed quite magical, and I could easily picture floating tropical skyislands, with perhaps some towers inbetween reaching from the ground. Not too sure though, Academy is very diverse. But what's very limiting is their lack of a decently fitting tier 6 unit. When out of the desert, the Rakashasas no longer fit.

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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted December 16, 2007 11:27 AM
Edited by Mytical at 12:29, 16 Dec 2007.

Well frankenstein was a super zombie .  Still I will have to give you a for these ideas.  Keep up the good work.

Lumbering Zombie : Traditional unupgraded zombie. Fresh out of the ground.
Walking Zombie : Been around long enough to limber up and walk (not run) at normal speeds.
Running Zombie : Can now run.

Zombie movies started out with the slow lumbering zombies.  Scary but too slow.
They skipped the walking zombie, but makes sense in an odd way.  They are not fast, but much faster then gen 1 zombies
Then came the running zombies.  Fast if not faster then a living person.  Now not only are they hard to kill, but they are fast too.
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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted December 16, 2007 01:49 PM

Thanks

Don't get me wrong, it isn't too hard to come up with more upgrades for any creature, if you think hard enough you can always find something and  make a story around it why its upgraded like that.

The question I have to ask though, does it at all add anything to the gameplay or the logic?

In the case of the Zombie, it has always been the smurf of the Necro faction. Slow, tanky, and fairly useless.

Why would such need even one upgrade?


*throws a fit at seeing 4 people voted for Alcibiades* ><

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted December 16, 2007 03:20 PM

Quote:
Because Alcibiades made note in a specific thread that with 100% bonus, Luck is far better than Morale which only gives 0,5 ini bonus.


That would be this one. However, I think there were some changes to Morale also.
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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted December 16, 2007 06:20 PM

Really interesting idea. I look forward to seeing what will come out of it!
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"

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Lord_of_Chaos
Lord_of_Chaos


Known Hero
Chaotic Entity
posted December 18, 2007 09:11 PM

Don't worry Moonlith, I voted for you! You've got excellent taste in avatar selection

Anyways, this is a great idea. When I first read the part about the 8 spell schools I was a little confused, but I went back and re-read it. Seems interesting with the levels of mastery and all that. There is one thing however, that I didn't like that much. It's the part where some creatures have no upgrades, some have alternatives and some have super upgrades. It is kind of cool, but I think that if the developers went through with this, a lot of players would feel like some thing was missing because the upgrading system was inconsistent throughout each faction.

Keep up the good work, I'd like to see your ideas for all of the factions.
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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted December 18, 2007 11:08 PM

Yeah, also how would you feel if your favorite creature had no super-upgrade? Kind of pissed id guess.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"

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texasaggie
texasaggie


Hired Hero
posted December 19, 2007 03:36 AM

i think the idea of different upgrade types for different crearures is great as long asits balenced
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sith_of_ziost
sith_of_ziost


Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
posted December 19, 2007 04:15 AM

Balanced? Not even TotE was balanced. But, still, we can make it LOOK balanced. Hehe.

I like being a critic. So, any thing that mey be weird or strange, i WILL let you know. But, so far, your good.

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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted December 20, 2007 01:05 AM

Oh I love compliments x3

As for being disappointed about creatures lacking upgrades, well, how many will cry over the following creatures not having upgrades?

Haven's Monks
Inferno's Ifrit (Efreet)
Sylvan's Treants
Necropolis' Zombies
Stronghold's Cyclops

I mean yeah, you can make an upgrade for anything, but honestly, what could upgrades possibly add for these creatures? You could make Cyclops Kings with better stats... But unless there is a very unique ability obtained through upgrading, you can wonder how important it is to have an upgrade for the creature? I don't think it too plausible.

Besides, statistics for these creatures are fairly on par with the average statistics of the upgrade. Technically, it's not the "upgrade" that is removed, it's the "downgrade" that's gone.


Quote:
Yeah, also how would you feel if your favorite creature had no super-upgrade? Kind of pissed id guess.


As for Superupgrades, I basicly went MOSTLY with the creatures that mainly define a faction.

Examples being Dungeon's Cave Dragons > Red Dragons > Black Dragons, Sylvan's Woodelves > Grandelves > Sharpshooters, and Haven's Peasants > Pikemen > Halbardiers.

But a favorit creature doesn't necessarily need to be defined by being powerfull I like the imps, and they are plain crap. Even though I like imps, I can easily see THEY would be far from deserving a superupgrade. (I have Inferno's superupgrade being the Pit Lord > Balor, by the way)

On a side note, a superupgrade could even be considered a burden, as you need to double upgrade to obtain that power and the creature would be more expensive than average for its tier.

As for the spellschools, its a bit tricky, as it makes you think there's 160 spells while there's only 80. Some spells I'm not too happy with just yet, so I may shift around some still. But otherwise I'm fairly content. Besides, I'm also fairly pleased with the spells that automaticly have a higher chance of appearing in a faction's mage guild like this.

Haven: Bless, Cure, Fortune, Teleport, and Prayer
Sylvan: Summon Aid, Cleansing, Arcane Crystal, Summon Water Elementals, Magic Resistance
Inferno: Firetraps, Whirlfire, Fireball, Inferno, and Armageddon
Dungeon: Stone Spikes, Vulcanic Burst, Rockburst, Meteor Shower, Implosion
Academy: Siphon Mana, Steal Enchatment, Summon Air Elementals, Phantom Forces, Counterspell
Necropolis: Slow, Raise Dead, Sorrow, Displacement, Curse of the Netherworld

At least those spells seem to define and fit the factions, in my opinion.

I'm still torn wether to shove Academy into a snowy or tropical setting at the moment As well the 9th faction's type, those are my main two current concerns.

Oh, btw, how many people actually like the gremlins? I'm contemplating replacing them with gnomes.

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sith_of_ziost
sith_of_ziost


Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
posted December 20, 2007 01:32 AM

Gremlins, gnomes, what's the difference. One is small and ugly, the other is small and ugly and appears in peoples lawns.

PS: Don't screw up Necropolis.

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Lord_of_Chaos
Lord_of_Chaos


Known Hero
Chaotic Entity
posted December 20, 2007 01:38 AM

Quote:
Technically, it's not the "upgrade" that is removed, it's the "downgrade" that's gone.

True, that makes sense. As long as the lone creature is strong enough or is useful enough to compensate for having no upgrade.

Quote:
I have Inferno's superupgrade being the Pit Lord > Balor, by the way

Sweet!!

Quote:
Oh, btw, how many people actually like the gremlins? I'm contemplating replacing them with gnomes.

Replace the gremlins with gnomes? o.O Are you out of your mind?
Gremlins are THE primary acadeny unit. You cant teake them away.
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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted December 20, 2007 03:33 AM

Well thats where it gets tricky. You could argue the pit lord doesnt deserve a super-upgrade. I mean what can it do ? get an extra spell? Bigger sword?
But you could argue the cyclops could get a goblin throwing skill and then the laser and then a attack alternating between the laser and stomping the ground..
Which is why its so hard to decide i guess.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted December 20, 2007 10:16 AM

Quote:
As for being disappointed about creatures lacking upgrades, well, how many will cry over the following creatures not having upgrades?

Haven's Monks
Inferno's Ifrit (Efreet)
Sylvan's Treants
Necropolis' Zombies
Stronghold's Cyclops


I will.
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