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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Heroes IV: Filling in the Gaps
Thread: Heroes IV: Filling in the Gaps [ This thread is 3 pages long: (1) 2 3 ]
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 07, 2001 07:55 AM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 15 Nov 2001

Heroes IV: Filling in the Gaps

Heroes IV: Filling in The Gaps

The wait for Heroes of Might and Magic IV has been a long and painful one. And now that it has just been put off again until February 1, we members at Heroes Community, or who are avid posters on the Heroes IV Altar of wishes, such as myself, Djive, Vlad, Shae, Sha, Preserver and many others here, have some researching to do. And this thread is the one for it. I will provide you with the known information so far. Heroes IV will be an extremely important and in-depth game. If we’re to have any benefit of posting about Heroes IV, we must get ahead in the information we discuss here in this forum.

There are many aspects to HoMM IV and there is much to be found out about these, and thus the topic name ‘Filling in The Gaps’. There is still much do distiguish between creatures and heroes, the creature line up has not been finalised, the adventure map is still covered with a shroud, the unknown buildings, creature statistics, spells, and many, many more items to be covered.
If we discuss the information I am about to exert, we can all discuss and find out the most likely place, and item for the space, and can determine almost exactly HoMM IV will turn out to be.

TOWN LINEUPS:
Academy - "Order magic forces this town to employ lawful creatures. In battle, Academy forces can charm enemies into defecting to fight on their side."
Level 1: Dwarf and Halfling
Level 2: Mage or Gold Golem
Level 3: Naga or Genie(Spellcaster)
Level 4: Dragon Golem or Titan

Necropolis - "After a successful battle, this town's Death magic automatically casts necromancy to raise forces from the dead to augment the town's unholy army."
Level 1: Zombie and Imp
Level 2: Wraith/Ghost or Cerberus
Level 3: Venom Spawn or Mummy(Spellcaster)
Level 4: Devil or Bone Dragon

Asylum - "While its Chaos magic won't give this town any post-combat bonus, the increased intelligence of its heroes translates to a significantly increased spell point reserve."
Level 1: Bandit and Orc
Level 2: Medusa or Minotaur
Level 3: Nightmare or Efreet(Spellcaster)
Level 4: Hydra or Black Dragon

Haven - "The one town most similar to HoMM3 (it's almost all-human unit team mimics the Castle from the earlier game), it Life magic lets it resurrect lost units after winning a battle."
Level 1: Squire and Crossbowmen
Level 2: Ballista or Pikeman
Level 3: Crusader or Monk(Spellcaster)
Level 4: Champion or Angel

Preserve - "The woodland creatures of this Nature magic-based town enjoy a recruitment bonus that lets them add new forces to their army after a successful battle."
Level 1: Wolf and Sprite
Level 2: White Tiger or Elf
Level 3: Unicorn(Spellcaster) or Griffin
Level 4: Fairy Dragon or Phoenix

Stronghold - "The stronghold compensates for its lack of mage guilds with powerful creatures, higher production, more blacksmith special items, and heroes that start with three skills instead of the typical two."
Level 1: Centaur and Berserker
Level 2: Nomad or Harpy?
Level 3:Thunderbird or Ogre Magi(Spellcaster)
Level 4: Behemoth or Cyclops

NATIVE TERRAIN

Academy: Snow (like Tower)

Haven: Grass (like Castle)

Preserve: Forest (HoMM 4 appears to include a new Terrain.)

Asylum: Swamp (like Fortress)

Necropolis: Volcanic/Lava (like Inferno)

Stronghold: Rough

Wierd that the merge has affected the Necropolis so much! Infernopolis! I agree with the other placings for the towns. Happy about Asylum!(Swamp)


HERO LINE-UPS

11 starting Hero Classes (Fighter, Priest, Lord, Enchanter, Warrior, Necromancer, Rouge, Sorcerer, Archer, Shaman, Barbarian), each with two starting skills, and 37 advanced Hero Classes.

This means that there are 2 skills per hero.
Fighter
Priest
Lord
Enchanter
Warrior
Necromancer
Rouge
Sorcerer
Archer
Shaman
Barbarian

LIST OF SKILLS
From Preserver

Tactics - Tactics, Offense, Defense, Leadership
Combat - Combat, Toughness, Archery, Magic Resistance
Scouting - Scouting, Pathfinding, Seamanship, Stealth
Nobility - Nobility, Estates, Mining, Diplomacy
Life - Life Magic, Healing, Spirituality, Resurrection
Order - Order Magic, Enchantment, Wizardry, Charm
Death - Death Magic, Occultism, Demonology, Necromancy
Chaos - Chaos Magic, Conjuration, Pyromancy, Sorcery
Nature - Nature Magic, Herbalism, Meditation, Summoning

Haven
Fighter (combat, toughness)
Priest (life, healing)

Academy
Lord (nobility, estates)
Enchanter (order, enchantment)

Necropolis
Warrior (tactics, offense)
Necromancer (death, necromancy)

Asylum
Rouge (scouting, stealth)
Sorcerer (chaos, sorcery)

Preserve
Archer (combat, archery)
Shaman (nature, meditation)

Stronghold
Barbarian (tactics, offense, defense)
Any other starting class
(Bonus, since it has a wider range of variety than other castles.)
Hero Type
Skill/Skill: Hero Class (skills, they probably will learn easily / reason why I think they fit here)


Might Heroes: (6) not associated with any specific town types

Combat/Tactics: Barbarian (every fighter skill and resistance)Combat/Nobility: Warlord (combat, nobility, estates, diplomacy)
Combat/Scouting: Planeswalker (scouting, pathfinding)
Tactics/Nobility: Diplomat (leadership, nobility, diplomacy)
Tactics/Scouting: Strategist (offense, defense, leadership, scouting, pathfinding, diplomacy)
Nobility/Scouting:


Magic Heroes: (11) associated with two town types each

Any 3 magic schools: Archmage (any secondary magic skills)
Order/Life: Wizard (wizardry, charm, enchantment, beneficial/healing spells)
Order/Nature: Elementalist (enchantment, charm, summoning)
Order/Chaos: Mage (wizardry, charm, enchantment, sorcery)
Order/Death: Necromancer (entchantment, necromancy, occultism)
Life/Nature: Druid (healing, herbalism, summoning)
Life/Chaos: Rebel Mage (healing, sorcery)
Life/Death: Fate Master (resurrection, occultism)
Nature/Chaos: Good Witch* (herbalism, conjuration, sorcery)
Nature/Death: Bad Witch* (herbalism, occultism, demonology)
Chaos/Death: Warlock (sorcery, pyromancy, occultism)


Might and Magic: (20)

Academy:
Order/Combat: Alchemist (enchantment, magic resistance, combat)
Order/Tactics:
Order/Nobility: Lord (estates, nobility, diplomacy)
Order/Scouting:

Haven:
Life/Combat: Paladin (healing, spirituality, combat)
Life/Tactics: Knight (life, offense, defense, leadership)
Life/Nobility: Priest (estates, diplomacy, healing, spirituality, resurrection)
Life/Scouting: Cleric (life, scouting, pathfinding)

Preserve
Nature/Combat: Shaman (meditation, herbalism, toughness, magic resistance)
Nature/Tactics: Forest Guard (herbalism, summoning, defense, leadership)
Nature/Nobility: Nature/Scouting: Ranger (herbalism, scouting, pathfinding)

Asylum
Chaos/Combat: Overlord (combat, toughness)
Chaos/Tactics: Sorcerer and Sorceress (sorcery, occultism, offense)
Chaos/Nobility:
Chaos/Scouting: Thief (stealth)

Necropolis
Death/Combat: Assassin (occultism, combat, archery)
Death/Tactics: Reaver (occultism, necromancy, tactics)
Death/Nobility:
Death/Scouting: Death Knight (necromancy, pathfinding, stealth

Many of the heroes have special abilities, which help them in any given situation, and all have strengths and weaknesses. But as you can see, many of the ‘basic’ skills are found in various castles, such as Occultism, Offense, Combat and Sorcery. These skills can be widely used, and have been put that way, but the real reason? So the heroes have balance. A hero has to have a balance of abilities, say the sorcerer, should really only learn magic. In reality, yes, but in Heroes, you must be able to balace them to have them combat a wider range of situations. Also, if a hero has only 1 type of skill, (such as combat, offense, defense-even though nobody possesses these skills) the hero would not be able to use spells effectively, and will rely on the strength of his army, which sometimes, could be as weak as 2 level 1 creatures. The opponent had the best part of a level 3 creature. I would get beaten badly if I didn’t have the help of spells.

Many, Many, Many thanks to Preserver for compiling this list. Hope he doesn’t mind me using it.

HEROES WHICH HAVE RETURNED

Crag Hack
Sandro
Jenova
Gem
Ajit
Fafner
Jeddite
Mephala
Bron
Fiona

As you can see, this is not a great number of heroes. There are other favourite heroes that would have fitted quite well in the new castles, such as Darkstorn, Rashka, Thant, and many other heroes. For me, a game with more heroes overall, should have a mix of old heroes and new heroes. This will bring diversity into the game, and make it enjoyable for players which have strategies for some certain hero, but that’s not to say that they will be the same……

RETURNED CREATURES

Hydra (Excellent, hardy garrison creature. Deals most damage when around a pack.
Black Dragon (Fast, Agile, Strong, Good HP, what more did you want?)
Bone Dragon (Not always the most powerful top level creature, but one that is needed to keep the Necropolis in good stead.
Titan (Best ranged attacker needed for Heroes IV)
Efreet (New competition for genies)
Pikemen (Good early-level unit)
Crusader (Double strike, and good HP)
Monk(A relatively weak ranged attacker, a Druid would be better suited)
Champion (A challenge to the supremacy of the Unicorn)
Sprite (The small fairy returns, high attack, low defense)
Wolf (Something more creative, please?)
Elves (Excellent ranged attackers for their level)
Unicorn (Great highly offensive unit)
Phoenix (Extremely fast and agile)
Centaur (Best 1st level creature in all three Heroes series so far.)
Thunderbird (Good flying creature)
Ogre Magi (Sturdy, high HP, ability to cast spells and in Stronghold. Very promising)
Cyclops (New abilities, multi hex attack, fast and powerful)
Behemoth (Hulking, high HP and damage worthy creatures)
Skeleton (Great early-level unit)
Imp (Has been upgraded to look like a Gargoyle.)
Wraith (A modified ghost)
Vampire (Great techniques and abilities)
Devils (Very fast, and deal high damage)
Nomad (Back after missing the cut in Heroes 3)
Medusa (Average ranged attacker, better as a walker)
Minotaur (Exclellent in HP, Damage and speed.

CREATURE SPECIALTIES:
It is said that in HoMMIV, all creatures have a specialty that helps them in a certain way. In the other Heroes Series, some creatures had specialties, others did not. At the moment, most specialties are unclear. So here are some of my ideas.

Orc: -
Bandit: Stealth ability(Sneak around without being noticed)
Medusa: My guess is that the opponent will turn to stone, like in the legend,
Sprite: No enemy retaliation
White Tiger: “First strike” (?%)
Unicorn:  ?% blinding attack.  
Fairy Dragon: "Spellcaster" and increases luck by 1
Black Dragon: "Spell immunity" (as in HoMM3)
Troll: "Regeneration"
Thunderbird: Thunderbolt attack (15-20%?)
Cyclops: Multi-hex attack
Angel: Resurrects allied troops. Hate devils
Mummy: 50% curse attack.
Beholder: Spellcaster, 10% posion?
Harpy: Swooping attack Same as HoMM3
Genie: "Beneficial spellcaster" (hate efreet)
Titan: "No melee penalty. Chaos Ward"
Halfling: "Giantslayer"
Dwarf: "50% magical resistance"
Gold Golem: "75% resistance. mechanical"
Cerberus: 3 headed attack.
Skeleton: Rebuilds itself within 5 rounds?
Vampire: Resurrect troop members.
Devil: -1 morale for enemy troops. Hates Angels
Venom Spawn: 30%? Venom injection
Efreet: Fire shield. Hate genies.
Zombie: 20% disease attack.
Ghost: Ability to guard mines?
Phoenix: Rebirth ability
Leprechaun Enhances luck on the battlefield
Minotaur: 30% physical block.
Nightmare: Terror ability. (maybe reduces defence?)
Hydra: All adjacent hexes are attacked. No enemy retaliation.
Magi: Beneficial spellcaster.
Nagas: No enemy retalitaion. Always does maximum damage (like heroes 3).
Dragon Golem: Magical resistance.
Squire: -
Crossbowmen: Double shots.
Ballista: No broken arrow penalty.
Pikemen: -
Crusader: Double Strike
Monk: 50% magical resistance?
Champion: ˝ more damage if attacking while moving? Like in HoMM3.
Wolf: No enemy retaliation.
Elf: Double shots.
Griffin: -
Centaur: -
Berserker: Attacks nearest unit. Enemy or Ally!
Nomad: ˝ more damage if moving?
Ogre Magi: Casts beneficial spells.
Behemoth: Reduces defence, like in HoMM3?
Imp: Immune to Chaos Magic?
Vampire: Turn into a bat = fly 20% faster?
Bone Dragon: Aging penalty like in HoMM3?

ARTIFACTS

I suppose that artifacts have been pushed aside because of seemingly more imporrtant issues in the game such as creatures or heroes.
But here’s a list that I think should return.

Sword of Hellfire
Titan’s Gladius
Ankh
Targ of the Rampaging Ogre
Thunder Helmet
Helm of Chaos
Tunic of the Cyclops King
Armour of Wonder
Sandals of Saint
Helm of Heavenly Enlightment
Dragon Scale Armour
Crown of Dragontooth
Glyph of Gallantry
Dead Man’s Boots
Boots of Polarity
Angel Feather Arrows
Necklace of the Ocean Guidance
Talisman of Mana
Ring of Conjuring
All Orbs (Firmament, Silt, Tempestuous Fire, Driving Rain)
Recanter’s Cloak
All Tomes (Fire, Earth, Air and Water)
Boots of Levitation
Golden Bow
Cape of Velocity
Pendant of Courage
Orb of Inhibition
Pandora’s Box

Much of these artifacts have been selected because they are the best of that certain field. But in Heroes IV, they may be altered or modified to get stronger or weaker. These artifacts are quite important at the moment, and I wouldn’t object to any changes made on these artifacts in Heroes IV, simply because I would like to see variety, and changes made for the better. This could mean using artifacts for adventure map use, castle use and battlefield use. It would give a greater usage for artifacts.

NEW FEATURES

Adventure Map

Heroes do not have to ride on horses, but on creatures, or just walk by themselves, since they do not need creatures to protect them.
The structures and mines are more lifelike in size, the castles are much bigger, in comparison to the hero size.
Adventure map has been more finely detailed to bring out the best in the scenery.
There are different levels of terrain, instead of obstacles, which are higher, such as mountains. The new terrain can be leveled and it is at different altititudes.

Battlefield

The most notable change on the battlefield is that the view is now isometric 3D, and the graphics are much more crisp and bright. Also in terms of spells, you can now see what has been taken of, like when normal damage is dealt.
Heroes now have more uses, they can be involved in physical combat, and cast spells. They also gain HP and levels-like experience but you use it in a broader variety.

But with all this hype and heroes knowledge, how do we know that it will work in the same way? The spells, which are really powerful now, may not be so powerful in Heroes IV. We have the base of the information, we just need to expand and fill in the gaps, or come up with a logical reasoning on why a certain aspect of heroes could be different.

But, the point of this thread, may you ask? It is simply to research HoMM IV information, post it here, and discuss and make opinions about the new info here.

Here are a few sites I have found quite useful for Heroes of Might and Magic IV information:
www.strategyplanet.com/homm
www.Heroes4.org
www.hmm4.com
www.3do.com

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Wyvern
Wyvern


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 07, 2001 07:23 PM

Very good! You have said almost everything... Just to remember you one more hero that will return - Bron. This time as a Barbarian. It's a pity because this way the Fortress is completely ruined...

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Preserver
Preserver


Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
posted November 07, 2001 07:46 PM

Cool...

but remember the skills on the advanced classes were just the reason why I thought they fit there. Not the skills the hero knows.. But great summary indeed. I will soon add new ideas and new confirmed advanced heroes in my thread, so be sure to keep yours updated.

BTW: Mephala is back too...

____________
- The only alert the invaders had was the rustling of leaves on a day without wind -

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The_Blue_Camel
The_Blue_Camel


Adventuring Hero
Bearer of the Mighty Camelnor
posted November 08, 2001 12:27 AM

hmm...

"But, the point of this thread, may you ask? It is simply to research HoMM IV information, post it here, and discuss and make opinions about the new info here. "

isnt that what the ENTIRE ALTAR OF WISHES is for?!?!

i mean this thread has some good info and all... but it doesnt really do anything... i dunno.  i dont mean to diss your thread, but it seems a bit pointless considering people have been posting this very information over and over again for the last... 2 months or so.  except for the creature lineup, which has been discussed at late quite a bit on a couple of other threads.

i dont mean to come off as mean here, but this thread just doesnt seem to serve any purpose...

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Xenophanes
Xenophanes


Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
posted November 08, 2001 03:30 AM

What I've finally accepted as the truth is that Black Dragons will have 1100 Health points. Don't get me wrong, I love this change, but I just wanted to make sure. After viewing the CHU Aslyum page, I'm sure - THAT TITANS ARE GONNA DIE!!! This is great! Imagine, a 600 HPer against a 1000 HPer - uh, I wonder who's gonna win? The Dragons have been returned to their rightful and former Heroes II glory! There is a God!
____________
<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>

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The_Baal
The_Baal


Hired Hero
The God Of Fire
posted November 08, 2001 03:35 AM

Titans-Dragons

Maybe you have accepted it, but many titan lovers, such as myself and many others on the community, we believe that it is too much of a gap for a level 4 creature. There is a gap of 420 HP between Nightmare and Titan. I really don't think there is going to be 500 difference in the same level.
That's my 2 cents.

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 08, 2001 06:19 AM

Replies to....

Replies:

The_Baal:
I mainly agree with your comments, although, the Black Dragon may really be that powerful, but I doubt it.
You brought up a very good point about HP differences, since Maranthea distincly said that there would be a large difference between levels (reason for 4) and not much difference between creatures on the same level. That is the main reason i doubt the Black Dragon's HP.

The_Blue_Camel:
Ah, you didn't read it carefully enough. I said make opinions about the new information. If i wanted it to be what we've discussed all this time, I wouldn't have put all the information in. And the Altar is also for 'Wishing' (New HoMM4 ideas) The posts on this thread are to be related to the information given.

Preserver:
Yes, i read your post the '37 advanced hero classes' and i derived my infor from there. After i revised it, i thought your estimations were quite logical, and quite frankly, extremely close on what i thought them to be in the game. Great Job.
I haven't heard of Mephala, but i'll edit it and put it in.

Wyvern: Hmmmm, Bron is apparently back? That is at least somebody from the Fortress. Unfortunately, Fortress heroes don't really fit into any town apart from maybe Preserve and Stronghold, and havent been featured prominently enough in Heroes 3 to be included in Heroes IV, even though i'd like to see more human heroes come in, since lizardmen and gnolls do not appear in the game.

OK. It appears that most castles have been finalised. But i think that the Stronghold is the most unknown. Who is in the second level? I believe it is the Harpy and Troll. Flyer-Walker. I would have hoped that the trolls would have learned to shoot.

Artifacts are an important part in Heroes IV, yet they haven't been discussed. I hope more information comes about soon.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted November 08, 2001 05:17 PM

Necropolis:
As far as I know the Wraith is not in Heroes 4. The Ghost has been mentioned.

Asylum: Town comment.
From what we've seen the Asylum doesn't seem to have an increased Intelligence. Rather it seems that the spell effectiveness has increased (Sorcery skill).

I also believe each "Magic" town will be able to recruit heroes from the neighbouring "Magic" town as well as Barbarians.

Necromancer: According to the Heroes 4 Beta thread, Necromancers will start with Death Magic and Occultism.

I also stand by my comment on Preserver's thread that Fighters = Gutter scum = Asylum, Warriors = Honourable crusaders = haven. I believe both of these will have Offence.

From the recent interview I believe we can conclude:
Knightly person (probably means Nobility?) + Combat = General.
Scouting + Life magic = Prophet

Add hero: Fiona.

About special abilities in Heroes. Just to clarify: The Hero speciality is gone. Heroes of one class will start out identical.

Zealots are called Monks in the places I've seen.
Nomads were in AB and SOD.

Of the artifacts you listed, most will go through a fairly big revison because we don't have Attack, Defence or Spellpower any more and many of the them affected those attributes. Also the Orbs and Tomes will be gone or appear in new guises because of the changed magic system.

You might also want to include the use of Potions as one shot Artifacts giving you the chance to cast a spell without having the proper skill/spell.

When it comes to most unknown town I believe Necropolis is just as unknown as Stronghold.

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niteshade
niteshade


Known Hero
posted November 08, 2001 05:55 PM

I'm not worried about titans/dragons quite yet until I see their final stats, abilities, and costs. For all we know dragons could cost twice as much and grow at half the speed of titans. I mean pheonix look really bad too, but when you take their cost and growth rate into account, they are among the best lvl 7s.

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Lord_Lord
Lord_Lord

Tavern Dweller
posted November 08, 2001 08:32 PM

Where do you get all this info!? It seems you guys could have written the game long ago.

I am scpetical though. Will there be no surprises. Will the ones that ruled HOMMIII be experts at HOMMIV before the game is released? Hehe too late to discuss that. Damage is done .
____________

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The_Blue_Camel
The_Blue_Camel


Adventuring Hero
Bearer of the Mighty Camelnor
posted November 09, 2001 01:59 AM

hmmm...

Hydra: we've already established that troll wont be in stronghold in another thread. one of the L2 strongholds we know is nomad.  as to the other one, the harpy is a good guess.

Lord_Lord: (an interesting name, lol) although we know a lot about where the creatures will be, we dont know much about them (i.e. stats, or special abilities).  we dont know much about heroes, and know next to nothing about the new adventure map objects... not to mention the new map editor...

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 09, 2001 09:21 AM


Replies......

The_Blue_Camel:
Yes,i agree that the troll will not be in the Stronghold castle. Bad idea, i think, it has been apart of the Stronghold/Barbarian lineup in Heroes 2, 1, and was left out in 3. But it definintely has been brought back and resurrected in Heroes IV, and the Stronghold is the most likely place for it, so i put it there. The Nomad apparently has replaced the Troll, and is very probable partners with the Harpy (Good choice! ) The Harpy is a ferocious creature, and has the right to be part of a Barbaric Town.

Lord_Lord:
The name is very original There will be plenty of surprises, as The_Blue_Camel said. All creatures have special abilities, which makes them unique and more strategically sane to the battlefield. Heroes can fight, which is probably my favourite change in Heroes IV, whcih means that the Heroes can cast spells and take part in physical contact. They'll really be the 'hero' then.
If you were a master at HoMM3, it doesn't mean you will be a master at HoMM IV. The new Heroes game as heaps of new features, explained in my initial post. The new features will result in different ways you approach a battle, the Hero needs to be at a high level, aswell as having many creatures to fight with. You also must choose what creatures to recruit wisely, since you need them to suit the style of the map or your individual one.

Niteshade:
Great point there, Niteshade, but i don't think that Titans will grow at half the speed of Dragons. Aswell as being both level 4 creatures, it will eliminate the traditional rivalry between them by giving the Dragon a massive advantage in a 1-1. Remember the stasts were only for the Beta version, and were most likely to change.

Djive:
Yes, the Asylum town specialises in magic (sorcery) and stealth. Theire intelligence isn't too bad, but their proficiency with Chaos Magic makes them a lethal adversary to any other spellcaster. On top of this, they also have a relatively powerful array of creatures which a formidable opponents in battle.
I agree with the General and the Prophet, they are logical guesses, especially with the Knight. The General will probably also have defensive skills, since they have good experience in battle.
Yes, but the artifacts will have the same type of skill equal to attack, (maybe boost offense in battle?) and the tomes and orbs will be back in different names and will now include the new magic systems.
Necropolis.... I know the whole lineup. Stronghold has stil yet to be confirmed, with the second and first levels still in dispute.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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UnkaHaakon
UnkaHaakon


Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
posted November 09, 2001 09:59 AM

First of all, I hereby award an Official Unka Haakon Un-prize to The_Hydra for what I believe is the longest single original post on the Altar!

Something not gone into much depth is the idea of 'Creature Specialities' (there's a thread about it back on page 3 or so ...hint, hint). Some of those specialities may be intriguing.

For instance, we've been told Halflings have the special ability of "Giantslayer", but no explanation of what that is. I suspect it may mean increased damage vs Level 4 creatures (much like the Slayer spell at expert level in Heroes3). If so, then Black Dragons had better worry less about that handful of Titans and more about hundreds of little fur-footed slingers, since apparently Level 1 creatures are available more than once a week.
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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted November 09, 2001 10:23 AM

Just a couple of things:

First of all: Great thread. Good work!

Halflings with Giantslayer? I love it! Hope this one's in the game!

And to the Necropolis: Hydra, when it says "this towns death magic will resurrect fallen guys after successful battle etc.", does this mean only when a Necropolis town is attacked, or also in an open field battle where e Necropolis hero wins?
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted November 09, 2001 11:17 AM

When it comes to the level 4 creatures I believe we will get the choice of one cheaper and more easily accessible creature, and one more expensive which you won't be able to afford until later. So either you can choose a "rush" tactics and get the creatures quicker or a long term strategy and get them later. When it comes to growth I believe it said the growth of fourth level creatures was going to be 2/week. Anyway, I'd expect the more powerful creatures to come with a hefty price tag.

When it comes to battles it will not be 1:1, but perhaps 10:2 or 12:4 or something like that.

Asylum: I was referring to the description of the town which clearly states that the town advantage was more spellpoints available. Problem is: we haven't seen any likely skill or town building which increases spellpoints so how will it actually work.

About listing skills together with an advanced class:
I don't see the point. I'm fairly certain the advanced class won't have any preferences in which skill to develope. Basically, it's the player who does all the choices for hero advancements and with three choices at level-up the advanced classes themselves appear to be fairly meaningless. The only thing which seems to  vary is attack damage and health. So basically the advanced classes probably has very little impact on game play except for giving the hero a new "title" and a new animation.

I hope the artifacts won't boost offence and similar. Rather I'd hope they give a percentile bonus to attack damage and health.

Some could be tailored for special skills but I'd really want this to be a small fraction as otherwise we may be stuck with artifacts littering the land and which only usage is to sell them to the merchants or place them on an altar for XP.

Necropolis. The whole line up can be disputed. We have no town picture with the line-up, or have I missed it? We assume  Zombies and Imps for level 1, but Skeletons could be instead of the Zombies. The structure (Graveyard) speaks for Zombies. For level 2 we have Cerberus, but for the other slot we don't really know. Considering that there's some major flipping between levels (just look at the level 2s for Asylum)  Mummy, Ghost, and Vampire all seem feasible, and perhaps also Liches if they're in the game. For level 3 I believe Venom Spawn is more or less confirmed, for the alternative we have little idea. Level 4 we're reasonably sure about. For instance can Mummy be level 3 spellcasters. That would mean either the Vampire or the Ghost would be neutral, and the other level 2.

For Stronghold we know the 2 level 1:s and 1 level 2. We're reasonable sure about the level 4 and level 3 creatures. This leaves only an insecurity in the remaining level 2 creature.

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 09, 2001 12:30 PM

Replies.....

Djive:
Maybe it could be that way, but as we've seen with the Beat version statistics of theAcademy town, the Dragon Golem has about 650, adn the Titan has 600. There really isn't much of a difference. That slight difference becomes even more slight with the Titans added bonus of shooting, and no melee penaty. So the idea you predicted may not be in the game, although it is not half-bad.
12-4? Aren't the level 4 supposed to be around about even? The gaps are huge between levels, but minute in the same level, do I have to repeat myself again? The demo is shown with Titan and Dragon Golem.

Ah, advanced classes may not have as big an impact as they did in HoMM3, but they are still needed if you want to specialise in a certain part of your game. It could be very vital if you have a specific point in the game (lets say you are fighting a Barbarian) You would need a defence skill if you want to reduce damage done.

Yes, that too, if it gave some boosts to secondary skills they could feature an even more prominent role. If they gave a percentile bonus, wouldn't they be just like spells? Isn't that their section of Heroes?

Necropolis: None of the lineup can be disputed except for the level 3 spellcaster. Lich or Vampire.

Level 1: Imp-flyer, Zombie-walker
Level 2: Ghost or Wraith-flyer(whatever you like to call it) or Cerberus-walker
Level 3: Venom Spawn-walker or Vampire-flyer(spellcaster)
Level 4: Devil-walker, Bone Dragon-flyer.

Stronghold:
Level 1: Centaur-shooter, Berserker-walker
Level 2: Troll, Nomad-walker, Harpy?? what else?
Level 3: Thunderbird, Ogre Magi
Level 4: Cyclops, Behemoth

There is really 1 creature in dispute for Necro, and that is because there has to be a shooter.
Sorry. Mummy isn't feasible. It is a walker, so is Cerberus. Neither is Vampire- level 3 neutral or Necropolis.
Ghost is already in the slot so there is nothing to worry about.

DonGio: Yes, they can resurrect troops whenever they win a battle. Good news for the Necropolis lovers. It gives them an edge if they only win by a whisker, they get some troops back. Yesssss!!

UnkaHaakon: I'm honoured to take the award. But it probably won't last with the amount of posters!!!
I'll will review the creature specialties and try to match some with the creatures. The creature specialties play a shadow role in Heroes IV, but can be useful, nonetheless.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted November 09, 2001 01:07 PM

12-4: This was caused by the difference that you can build one builing say in week 2 and the other in week 6. Four weeks production =  8 creatures difference. Imight as well have written 28-20 or 20-12. It all depends on which week the combat occurs.

The way to reduce damage is either Defence or Toughness. Ok. The latter doesn't reduce the damage but lets the Hero take more damage. You don't really get these from the associated classes, you get them by improving secondary skills. (Which in turn are connected to a primary skill, which are connected to 8-9 classes which specialize in that primary skill.)

I don't see anything wrong in artifacts working in similar ways to spells. I only see that Heroes 3 was a bit too complicated.

For Necropolis: My guess is that Venom Spawn is a Shooter, so any non-shooter unit will do for level 3. Since Necropolis has no "obvious" spellcaster, and most other towns has a level 3 spell caster, the Mummy makes sense. (Since traditionally the Mummy has been able to cast spells in Heroes.)

There's also a battle-image with Venom Spawn selected. The shoot option is available and the cast spell option is 'grayed out'. This points to the fact that the Venom Spawn is a shooter.

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 10, 2001 03:38 AM

Thoughts....

I see something wrong in Artifacts working in similar ways to spells. They would cancel each other out, and maybe even use artifacts to create spells! That would be a disaster; using two different entities for one purpose. I like complicated games because they give a large amount of depth and playability. You can then fiddle around with the game more to get the best strategies for the game.

Yes, I would have to say Venom Spawn is a Shooter, now that I think about it. Then the mummy would be in the place of the Vampire, and the Vampire would become a neutral. There. The whole Necropolis creature line-up has been figured out by 3 posts.

Creatures will grow in the same way as each other. Say the Dragon will be two per week, and so will the Hydra. The only way I can see that changing is if the special abilities play a big role, and the other creature has a good special ability, and the other one not so.

When you take possession of a certain secondary skill, it helps to strengthen you in some way. Defence, you would have a higher defence, and less damage will be dealt to you. In toughness, it would probably increase Hit Points, since the two cannot be the same. The Primary skills also provide the base for these skills and you can really only excel certain types if you have chosen the right hero.

All castles will have at least 2 unique buildings, all working in similar ways that the grail used to in Heroes of Might and Magic 3. These buildings could make a difference to how the castle is shaped, and what its strengths are.

I have updated a few points on my initial post, such as creature specialties and Town Line-ups. Feel free to discuss other suggestions.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted November 10, 2001 08:08 AM
Edited By: Djive on 10 Nov 2001

Since no one character is going to be proficient in all five magic schools they created Potions specifically to mimic spell effects.

Myself, I prefer copying spells effects over from mage guilds to artifacts. In the end the effects the artificers and mages wants to produce is the same, therefore it makes some sense if they work the same way. In addition it's easier for the player to remember that way.

Plus artifacts affecting secondary skills tended to be overall useless in Heroes 3 when compared with many other. You lugged them around in your backpack, till you could flog them away to the next artifact merchant. So I certainly prefer the simple approach.

The complexity will lie in the number of different artifacts and spells which will increase substantially. Also artifacts which combine a positive and negative effect will be common... That will separate them from spells.

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arachnid
arachnid


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 10, 2001 04:57 PM

Thats a nice very very long post but why do you feel the need to go into every last single detail of the game and work everything out i mean surely we dont gain anything by knowing it.

Im sure the manual will cover exactly how much speed orcs have and there hitpoints as well as there cost and ability.
I dont see the need to know since we cant see how it will play like just by having every single fact about the game.
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