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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Heroes IV: Filling in the Gaps
Thread: Heroes IV: Filling in the Gaps This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 12, 2001 01:30 PM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 12 Nov 2001

Opinions….

Quote:
Thats a nice very very long post but why do you feel the need to go into every last single detail of the game and work everything out i mean surely we dont gain anything by knowing it.

Arachnid:
Ah, that’s where you are wrong. People here post replies all the time. Some long, some short. They also feel as though they have a purpose here at Heroes Community. May it be posting stuff in the Tavern of the Rising Sun, or finding out solutions to maps in the Library of Enlightment. But for me, it is finding out things about Heroes IV in the Altar of Wishes, even before it has graced the store shelves. At Heroes Community, you can discuss issues about the new game with others just as interested about it as you are, and together, you can correct and make changes, with having other people’s opinions too. What can you this information for though? Well, do you feel as though you gain anything by being a member apart from meeting new people and having your opinion on many topics far and wide? In my personal opinion, I would like to know something extra, something more about Heroes IV, so when it finally comes out, and I purchase it, I will be able to put the facts to good use, without having to read the things the manual can explain, or can’t explain for that matter. When You have all the facts at your fingertips, you can start doing more with the game, and expanding in many areas of the game which previously, you could not have explored. It also gives you the option of working out things before the game get released, and researching on how they can be improved and what suits them best. But of course, it is still only a game.

Djive:
Exactly my thought. Potions are needed to make more spells available to more than their own order. This would give induce the spells to be used at their full affect, and not by their own order heroes. It would give the variety exerted by the element spell system in Heroes III, which allwoed all castles to use every type. This has gone a step further. There are now orders for each castle, but can also be used in a wide range of areas. This also means that the Stronghold won’t be without the use of spells.

Not exactly. The spells in the game are used in a very wide range of instances, such as to scuttle a boat or to completely blow the opponents army away. They may be looking for the same goal sometimes, but do they get there? No. I would’nt like to use an artifact that could annihilate a whole army. The artifacts are used to help your forces in whatever way possible, but are very rarely used to hinder your opponent’s progress. That is what spells are for.

But we are not talking about Heroes 3 are we, Djive. We have entered a new era of Heroes. Heroes IV will include artifacts which will help you, and hinder other armies, unlike in HoMM3, but they will not be used to conquer whole armies in a battle like spells are. Artifacts  will also become more like spells in the way that they hinder opponents progress, but not as immensly as spells do.

True, there will be more artifacts and spells that will make it more complex. But with more, you also get redundancy, and the more of them you have, the less aspects you have to help or hinder. I would rather see less spells, than more of the same spells. Or less artifacts which are less like spells, or more artifacts which are more like spells.In my mind, artifacts and spells should be different.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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The_Blue_Camel
The_Blue_Camel


Adventuring Hero
Bearer of the Mighty Camelnor
posted November 13, 2001 04:59 AM

think before you post...

QUOTE:
"Maybe it could be that way, but as we've seen with the Beat version statistics of theAcademy town, the Dragon Golem has about 650, adn the Titan has 600. There really isn't much of a difference. That slight difference becomes even more slight with the Titans added bonus of shooting, and no melee penaty. So the idea you predicted may not be in the game, although it is not half-bad.  
12-4? Aren't the level 4 supposed to be around about even? The gaps are huge between levels, but minute in the same level, do I have to repeat myself again? The demo is shown with Titan and Dragon Golem. "

well, the thing is, those arent the only L4's... as we know, Black dragons have 1100 HP's.
somehow i dont think hydras will have hp's anywhere near that... considering that would make it totally unfair to other castles like the academy whose combined hp's of the L4's are barely more than the Black Dragon itself (BD - 1100, ACADEMY L4'S - 1250) ... so its definitely a safe guess to say that Hydras will have no more than 450 hps.  They will probably have a higher growth than most L4's... i think.
And though i cannot back this up, i will guarentee that not all Level 4 creatures will be 2 per week.
There is just no way that a 600 hp creature and an 1100 hp creature will have the same growth.  3DO would not do this.



QUOTE:
"Necropolis: None of the lineup can be disputed except for the level 3 spellcaster. Lich or Vampire.

Level 1: Imp-flyer, Zombie-walker
Level 2: Ghost or Wraith-flyer(whatever you like to call it) or Cerberus-walker
Level 3: Venom Spawn-walker or Vampire-flyer(spellcaster)
Level 4: Devil-walker, Bone Dragon-flyer.

Stronghold:
Level 1: Centaur-shooter, Berserker-walker
Level 2: Troll, Nomad-walker, Harpy?? what else?
Level 3: Thunderbird, Ogre Magi
Level 4: Cyclops, Behemoth

There is really 1 creature in dispute for Necro, and that is because there has to be a shooter.
Sorry. Mummy isn't feasible. It is a walker, so is Cerberus. Neither is Vampire- level 3 neutral or Necropolis.
Ghost is already in the slot so there is nothing to worry about. "


ok...W  T  F

im sorry... but this is so blatently wrong that i just had to say something.

OK, FIRST OF ALL... WHY ON EARTH ISNT MUMMY OR VAMPIRE FEASIBLE???

mummy could be a L2... hello... since ghost is a flyer and we know that they WILL be L2.

and since venom spawn is a shooter, vampires are feasible at L3 since they are flyers...

ALSO: i challenge anyone to give me evidence that cerberi will be in necro... there hasnt been a shred of evidence about it, so why on earth would you pick something that HASNT been in necro before aginst something that has been in necro since h2!!!

just because some site like celestial heavens, or hmm4.com puts them there doesnt mean its true...weve seen them, in the past, be wrong big-time.

also, devil is flyer and spellcaster... if you'd actually looked at the picture of them you would see that they have wings...



i wont argue with you about zombies L1... thats a possibility.

once again, trolls arent in stronghold... just dont even try to argue it, we've more than proved it already.



QUOTE:
"Yes, I would have to say Venom Spawn is a Shooter, now that I think about it. Then the mummy would be in the place of the Vampire, and the Vampire would become a neutral. There. The whole Necropolis creature line-up has been figured out by 3 posts. "

i wouldnt mislead people about that... considering that its wrong... maranthea told me that vampires WILL be in necro... so already that list is wrong... lol









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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 14, 2001 10:41 AM

Think before you post….

Well the thought had occurred to me LOL. But it seems as though that comment has just backfired, The_Blue_Camel.

Quote:
well, the thing is, those arent the only L4's... as we know, Black dragons have 1100 HP's.
somehow i dont think hydras will have hp's anywhere near that... considering that would make it totally unfair to other castles like the academy whose combined hp's of the L4's are barely more than the Black Dragon itself (BD - 1100, ACADEMY L4'S - 1250) ... so its definitely a safe guess to say that Hydras will have no more than 450 hps. They will probably have a higher growth than most L4's... i think.
And though i cannot back this up, i will guarentee that not all Level 4 creatures will be 2 per week.
There is just no way that a 600 hp creature and an 1100 hp creature will have the same growth. 3DO would not do this.



As we know the Black Dragons have 1100 HP? No, we don’t know that, it was in the beta version, and which clearly states that the statistics may change!  Somehow, I think that the Hydras will have about 500-550, and the Black Dragon will have 700 or around there. This would make it more even. As you didn’t state, the growth rate will be 2 level 4’s per week, and that goes for each creature, so there really can’t be too much difference between level 4’s but we can definitely expect great differences between levels. Yes, you said it. 3DO would not have the same growth for an uneven creature, which means the Black Dragon DOES have 1100 HP (Doubt it) Or the creature growth rates are the same, which I think is, probably more likely.
By other beta information, it seems as though every level 4 creature has between 500 and 650, excluding the Black Dragon. I really don’t see how the Black Dragon could be this strong, considering all the other creatures HP.

Quote:
Im sorry... but this is so blatently wrong that i just had to say something.

OK, FIRST OF ALL... WHY ON EARTH ISNT MUMMY OR VAMPIRE FEASIBLE???

mummy could be a L2... hello... since ghost is a flyer and we know that they WILL be L2.

and since venom spawn is a shooter, vampires are feasible at L3 since they are flyers...

ALSO: i challenge anyone to give me evidence that cerberi will be in necro... there hasnt been a shred of evidence about it, so why on earth would you pick something that HASNT been in necro before aginst something that has been in necro since h2!!!

just because some site like celestial heavens, or hmm4.com puts them there doesnt mean its true...weve seen them, in the past, be wrong big-time.

also, devil is flyer and spellcaster... if you'd actually looked at the picture of them you would see that they have wings...



Well, the mummy or Vampire isn’t feasible, because simply the level 2 lineup has been decided. Ghost and Cerberus. Ghost is a flyer, and so is Vampire, and I’m quite sure I saw the picture of the cerberus fighting for the Necropolis, which means the mummy can be rules out from the level 2 slot.
But it does have a great possibility in level 3, since the Venom Spawn is a confirmed shooter, which rules out the Vampire’s appearance, unless it is a non-flyer, which I very much doubt. The mummy would most likely be a walker, since it has been in all other series, and I don’t see how it could fly or shoot. Did I miss something? Could you please tell me where the Mummy was in H3?
Sorry, they look like small appendages, more like small arms or something, too me. And why wouldn’t a Bone Dragon have the capability to fly?

Pushing that recent debate aside, does any one have any ideas on what the creature specialties would do? As I said, I have put in some likely abilities into my initial post.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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The_Blue_Camel
The_Blue_Camel


Adventuring Hero
Bearer of the Mighty Camelnor
posted November 15, 2001 05:18 AM

ok.... ahhh!!! you are driving me crazy with wrongness

"Well, the mummy or Vampire isn’t feasible, because simply the level 2 lineup has been decided. Ghost and Cerberus. Ghost is a flyer, and so is Vampire, and I’m quite sure I saw the picture of the cerberus fighting for the Necropolis, which means the mummy can be rules out from the level 2 slot."

OK, you can't use that screenshot as proof because it's sooooooo old.  According to that screenshot, gargoyles are in necropolis.... which obviously is wrong.
therefore cerberi could have just as easily been kicked out of necro as the gargoyles: therefore undermining your entire argument...
So you cant say something gay like "we KNOW that cerberi are L2 necro"...



"But it does have a great possibility in level 3, since the Venom Spawn is a confirmed shooter, which rules out the Vampire’s appearance, unless it is a non-flyer, which I very much doubt. The mummy would most likely be a walker, since it has been in all other series, and I don’t see how it could fly or shoot. Did I miss something? Could you please tell me where the Mummy was in H3? "

OH GOD... the wrongness is blinding.  get your facts straight... PLEASE!

FIRST OF ALL, venom spawn in no way rules out the vampires appearance... that makes no logical sense.
the thing that 3do said was that creatures of the same level would be different.  
lets see here... i think a vampire and a venom spawn would be different considering one is a FLYER and one is a SHOOTER... it never said anything about one having to be a walker... which is obviously what you think.

so vampires can be in the L3 spot beside venom spawn.
glad we got that one straight.

BTW: mummy was in Heroes III: Armageddon's Blade as a neutral... surely you have heard this even if you dont have AB?



"As we know the Black Dragons have 1100 HP? No, we don’t know that, it was in the beta version, and which clearly states that the statistics may change! Somehow, I think that the Hydras will have about 500-550, and the Black Dragon will have 700 or around there. This would make it more even. As you didn’t state, the growth rate will be 2 level 4’s per week, and that goes for each creature, so there really can’t be too much difference between level 4’s but we can definitely expect great differences between levels. Yes, you said it. 3DO would not have the same growth for an uneven creature, which means the Black Dragon DOES have 1100 HP (Doubt it) Or the creature growth rates are the same, which I think is, probably more likely.
By other beta information, it seems as though every level 4 creature has between 500 and 650, excluding the Black Dragon. "

hmmm... even if it says that stats may change... I think i'd rather go with the beta version hp's than your guesswork(which, no offense, has proven not to be trusted).


"I really don’t see how the Black Dragon could be this strong, considering all the other creatures HP. "

Why couldnt it have 1100 hp??? its obvious that 3do is not scared of having a creature that is far superior to others.  this is clear after the appearance of the azure dragon in Armageddon's Blade...
but as we know, the azure's cost is insanely high... which is probably the case also with the black dragon in h4... high cost to make up for more strength.

ALSO, where did i say that bone dragons weren't flyers?!

yes, i put that bone dragons and devils are both flyers, but devils are spellcasters, making them a different type of creature than the bone dragon.


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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 15, 2001 11:06 AM

The_Blue_Camel...

Since this discussion with creatures has been dragging on for a bit, I encourage others to join in and state your opinions. Don’t let the length of the post discourage you.

Quote:
OK, you can't use that screenshot as proof because it's sooooooo old. According to that screenshot, gargoyles are in necropolis.... which obviously is wrong.
therefore cerberi could have just as easily been kicked out of necro as the gargoyles: therefore undermining your entire argument...
So you cant say something gay like "we KNOW that cerberi are L2 necro"...



Ok. You really don’t get my drift, do you? That screenshot is pretty old, yes, but why do you think things have changed? Have we any indication the gargoyle is even a creature. From what I’ve heard, gargoyles and Imps have merged, and that must be one of the earlier gargoyle drawings, like there were with many other creatures, even the notorious Dragon Golem. No. we don’t KNOW that Cerberus are in Necropolis, but we don’t have any evidence to suggest that they are not, since we haven’t seen any suitable replacement in battle, or anything that could possibly go in its place. A please don’t say a Vampire.

FIRST OF ALL, venom spawn in no way rules out the vampires appearance... that makes no logical sense.
Quote:
the thing that 3do said was that creatures of the same level would be different.
lets see here... i think a vampire and a venom spawn would be different considering one is a FLYER and one is a SHOOTER... it never said anything about one having to be a walker... which is obviously what you think. So vampires can be in the L3 spot beside venom spawn.
glad we got that one straight.


I’m sorry. I didn’t quite get the section where 3DO said that the creatures would be different. And could you please tell me in what area have you not seen a walker and a flyer/shooter? Venom Spawn DOES rule out the Vampires appearance since there are Walker and or Shooter! Where did you get the idea that there wasn’t! Mummy seems a likely spellcaster for the Necropolis, it looks like having the capabilities to.
As I suspected, the Mummy was NOT in Necropolis, but instead as a neutral. Fascinating.

Quote:
hmmm... even if it says that stats may change... I think i'd rather go with the beta version hp's than your guesswork(which, no offense, has proven not to be trusted).


Even though you said no offense, I am in no way happy about that comment. I will not lash out at you, neither do I intend to with anyone. But it seems as though you are making up this information when you don’t have anything to back it up. What is the reason for going with the beta version stats? Where hasn’t my guesswork proven to be trusted? Just because you have a different opinion to me, it doesn’t necessarily mean that mine is incorrect and yours is right. People who think like that have a very closed mind. Always be open to opinions.

Quote:
Why couldnt it have 1100 hp??? its obvious that 3do is not scared of having a creature that is far superior to others. this is clear after the appearance of the azure dragon in Armageddon's Blade...
but as we know, the azure's cost is insanely high... which is probably the case also with the black dragon in h4... high cost to make up for more strength.


One thing that you are forgetting is that the Azure Dragon was in an expansion pack, wasn’t it? All the creatures in the first version of the game had between 200 and 300 HP if you are talking about the upgraded level 7’s. The high cost may make up for the strength, but you are really not taking everything into account. Maranthea distinctly said that the creatures in levels would have pretty equal power, not what it would end up to be at the end.
Bone Dragons are flyers, but the Devil cannot be since it has to follow the rule that every other creature has abided by. Walker, shooter or flyer. Do I have to repeat myself again?

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Camelnor
Camelnor


Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
posted November 16, 2001 05:55 AM

Hydra...

OK, before i start, you don't hafto attack me to prove me wrong... geez


QUOTE:
"Ok. You really don’t get my drift, do you? That screenshot is pretty old, yes, but why do you think things have changed? Have we any indication the gargoyle is even a creature. From what I’ve heard, gargoyles and Imps have merged, and that must be one of the earlier gargoyle drawings, like there were with many other creatures, even the notorious Dragon Golem. No. we don’t KNOW that Cerberus are in Necropolis, but we don’t have any evidence to suggest that they are not, since we haven’t seen any suitable replacement in battle, or anything that could possibly go in its place. A please don’t say a Vampire."

First of all, consider the opposite of your argument before stating something.

Because here, this can just as easily be said... "Have we any indication that the gargoyle ISNT a creature" as "Have we any indication the gargoyle is even a creature."
so you are accomplishing nothing there.

And before, you said not to rely on the beta's information, yet you are using the beta screenshot of the cerberus being in battle for necro as the only basis of your argument!!!
so... yeah.  that one doesnt work too well :-(


"From what I’ve heard..."  

OH YEAH!!! great evidence there... really leaves a convincing argument.

the talks about the gargoyle merging w/the imp was a simple guess started by someone in one of the forums a few months ago and nothing more...
plus... though this is complete speculation, i seriously doubt that a stone-looking creature couldve been an imp...
And even if the gargoyle is no more, there's no reason why the cerberus couldnt have been taken out of the necro since 2 months ago.  several other creatures seem to have been switched... (namely the addition of the griffin to preserve)


"since we haven’t seen any suitable replacement in battle..."

well, the mummy was in that very same screenshot... was it not? its a walker... just like ur good ol cerberus.  so theres no reason why it couldn't be L2 instead of cerberus.


"I’m sorry. I didn’t quite get the section where 3DO said that the creatures would be different. And could you please tell me in what area have you not seen a walker and a flyer/shooter? Venom Spawn DOES rule out the Vampires appearance since there are Walker and or Shooter! Where did you get the idea that there wasn’t! Mummy seems a likely spellcaster for the Necropolis, it looks like having the capabilities to. "

Well, maybe if you had been in the forum for the last month you might have caught it.  We had a big discussion about how, although 3do never "officially" said this, they said in one of the interviews something along the lines of: "expect to see different types of creatures in each level" (ask preserver, he has the quote and the link to it)

Anyway, there are plenty of spots where there isnt a walker at all... once again, you need to look at the creature lists before you make such statements.

Here they are:
Devil, Bone Dragon - both flyers - Level 4's of the Necropolis. (and dont say devils arent flyers - they have wings in the picture)

Faerie Dragon, Phoenix - both flyers - Level 4's of the Preserve.

Only two examples, but two is enough. therefore vampires are clearly feasible to sit beside the venom spawns in the L3 spot.


"As I suspected, the Mummy was NOT in Necropolis, but instead as a neutral. Fascinating. "

Hmm... obviously you didnt think that one out... OK - since mummies came in the expansion, OBVIOUSLY they couldn't be added to necropolis... DUH.  they had to be neutral.
I don't see how you didn't think of that.



"Even though you said no offense, I am in no way happy about that comment. I will not lash out at you, neither do I intend to with anyone. But it seems as though you are making up this information when you don’t have anything to back it up. What is the reason for going with the beta version stats? Where hasn’t my guesswork proven to be trusted? Just because you have a different opinion to me, it doesn’t necessarily mean that mine is incorrect and yours is right. People who think like that have a very closed mind. Always be open to opinions. "

How do i not have anything to back this up with???
just read this post... there are several of your guesses that have been proven wrong.

for instance:
1. "Yes, I would have to say Venom Spawn is a Shooter, now that I think about it. Then the mummy would be in the place of the Vampire, and the Vampire would become a neutral. There. The whole Necropolis creature line-up has been figured out by 3 posts. "

after you saying that, i proved that vampires will be in the necro because maranthea told me they would be.

2. you claimed that trolls were in stronghold, and yet i proved that they weren't by using the different type rule and the fact that trolls have 180 hp.

plenty more that i needn't point out...

and no, im not lashing out at you, im simply saying that i'd rather take 3do's beta version as fact rather than your guesses.

True, your opinion isn't always wrong... but when there are facts that prove it wrong, then it is.


"People who think like that have a very closed mind. Always be open to opinions. "

OK, no need for the "im better than you" tone.


"Bone Dragons are flyers, but the Devil cannot be since it has to follow the rule that every other creature has abided by. Walker, shooter or flyer. Do I have to repeat myself again? "

No, you dont have to repeat yourself.  i heard you the first time... devils are flyers, its just that your "rule" is completely wrong, thats all.  
the rule really is:
If Creature A is a walker, Creature B must be a spellcaster/flyer/shooter.
If Creature A is a flyer, Creature B must be a
spellcaster/walker/shooter.  

THERE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A WALKER IN EACH LEVEL, obviously.
as i have shown you, two levels already contradict your "rule" as you call it...
(preserver, feel free to jump in and help me show him how he's wrong here, i could use the help, bud)


"Maranthea distinctly said that the creatures in levels would have pretty equal power"

WHERE...










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Camelnor
Camelnor


Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
posted November 16, 2001 06:01 AM

oh yeah...

Devils are spellcasters, thats why they can be flyers along w/the bone dragons.

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 16, 2001 09:33 AM

Camelnor. (Don’t know why you started using you old name. I liked it better though.

“First of all, consider the opposite of your argument before stating something.”

I have taken the opposite side into consideration in almost everything about the game I said.

“Because here, this can just as easily be said... "Have we any indication that the gargoyle ISNT a creature" as "Have we any indication the gargoyle is even a creature."
so you are accomplishing nothing there.”

There as been no indication as yet that the gargoyle is a creature. It is either imps have been used instead of Gargoyles, or possibly gargoyles have been used as a neutral, since they are definitely not in the necropolis.

And before, you said not to rely on the beta's information, yet you are using the beta screenshot of the cerberus being in battle for necro as the only basis of your argument!!!
so... yeah. that one doesnt work too well :-(

Do you know that the screenshot has come from the beta version? It could have, but even so I wasn’t relating to the creature lineup, I was referring to the creature Hit Points. Two different things. OK. Are you suggesting that the Cerberus is a level 3, or is not in the Necropolis at all, because both of those two possibilities for that happening is extremely slim.

"From what I’ve heard..."

OH YEAH!!! great evidence there... really leaves a convincing argument.

OK then. I took this speculation about since the gargoyle obviously was in the Necropolis and the Imp wasn’t. (Pretty sure zombie and Gargoyle) This lead me to the possible reasoning that either the Imp had merged with the Gargoyle, or the Gargoyle had been eradicated from the Necropolis lne-up. Happy?

the talks about the gargoyle merging w/the imp was a simple guess started by someone in one of the forums a few months ago and nothing more...
plus... though this is complete speculation, i seriously doubt that a stone-looking creature couldve been an imp...
And even if the gargoyle is no more, there's no reason why the cerberus couldnt have been taken out of the necro since 2 months ago. several other creatures seem to have been switched... (namely the addition of the griffin to preserve)

There is also no reason why it should have. Look at the other side of the argument. Before giving tips, do it yourself. Since the merging of Necropolis and Inferno has produced only 1 new creature in your eyes(Devil) I would have thought the change would have been larger, and there are many reasons why the cerberus should be in the Necropolis on top of the one I have just stated. Cerberus pictured in the screenshot. No other possible slot apart from neutral, generally speaking. A level 2 hasn’t gone without walker-flyer/shooter.

"since we haven’t seen any suitable replacement in battle..."

“well, the mummy was in that very same screenshot... was it not? its a walker... just like ur good ol cerberus. so theres no reason why it couldn't be L2 instead of cerberus.”

Do you really think a mummy could be in level 2 or be a neutral? I don’t think so. The Vampire has even more chance of being in the neutral army, has there ever been a level 3 combination which strays of the common rule of walker, shooter/flyer? Only two level 4’s have. And we do not know if the Fairy Dragon or Devil can fly. They are guesses. They have not been confirmed. The one which is most feasible is the Fairy Dragon. The mummy is really too strong to be a level 2, and the Cerberus too weak for level 3. And I doubt a neutral ending for it.

Here they are:
Devil, Bone Dragon - both flyers - Level 4's of the Necropolis. (and dont say devils arent flyers - they have wings in the picture)

Faerie Dragon, Phoenix - both flyers - Level 4's of the Preserve.

Only two examples, but two is enough. therefore vampires are clearly feasible to sit beside the venom spawns in the L3 spot.

Yes, but you are forgetting that those two examples are level 4 creatures, and the Vampire is a proposed level 3. And as I said before, we do not have clear facts that those two can fly. We don’t even have a picture of the Fairy Dragon!
Even if the Devil has things that don’t even look like wings, but you say they are, it still doesn’t mean they can fly. It is possible, but as you say, look at the opposite side of the argument.

“Hmm... obviously you didnt think that one out... OK - since mummies came in the expansion, OBVIOUSLY they couldn't be added to necropolis... DUH. they had to be neutral.
I don't see how you didn't think of that.”

No. The thing is that you said they had been in there since Heroes of Might and Magic 2. So I was just saying that they weren’t in the Necropolis. That is all.

“How do i not have anything to back this up with???
just read this post... there are several of your guesses that have been proven wrong.

for instance:
1. "Yes, I would have to say Venom Spawn is a Shooter, now that I think about it. Then the mummy would be in the place of the Vampire, and the Vampire would become a neutral. There. The whole Necropolis creature line-up has been figured out by 3 posts. "

after you saying that, i proved that vampires will be in the necro because maranthea told me they would be.

2. you claimed that trolls were in stronghold, and yet i proved that they weren't by using the different type rule and the fact that trolls have 180 hp.”

Yes. But how long ago was that e-mail message? Things could have drastically changed since then. And that was only mere speculation. Of course you could not actually prove it until the game has come out.

Did I claim that the trolls were in stronghold? I don’t think so. I had a question mark next to them so it was a guess, and the day after, information was released that the Nomad was in Stronghold. That was a guess, to a claim. And guesses are almost always wrong.

“OK, no need for the "im better than you" tone.”

Hmmm? Where did you get that from? The internetis very misleading. You really don’t know the manner in which the person is talking in. And I wasn’t talking like that.

“THERE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A WALKER IN EACH LEVEL, obviously.
as i have shown you, two levels already contradict your "rule" as you call it...
(preserver, feel free to jump in and help me show him how he's wrong here, i could use the help, bud) “

Have you really confirmed those two are actually flyers. They are guesses. As I said before even though the devil has things that to you look like wings, there is no reason why they couldn’t fly. They teleported in Heroes 3.

In one of the interviews I read (You will find it) She said that the creatures will have greater difference between levels and smaller difference in levels, which is the reason for fewer levels. So you can’t have 420 HP difference between levels and 500 in the same level.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Camelnor
Camelnor


Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
posted November 17, 2001 01:19 AM

"Do you know that the screenshot has come from the beta version? It could have, but even so I wasn’t relating to the creature lineup, I was referring to the creature Hit Points. Two different things. OK. Are you suggesting that the Cerberus is a level 3, or is not in the Necropolis at all, because both of those two possibilities for that happening is extremely slim. "

ok... the screenshot was taken two months ago, and so were the stats... any version of a game 6 MONTHS before the game will be released is a beta version, DUH!  did you think they had two different versions or something???  wtf...


"There as been no indication as yet that the gargoyle is a creature. It is either imps have been used instead of Gargoyles, or possibly gargoyles have been used as a neutral, since they are definitely not in the necropolis. "

OK... we just had a picture of this stone creature with wings that looked exactly like a gargoyle, but NOOOOOOO we dont have ANY evidence that it'll be in the game... WTF.
even if its in the beta version, its still gives one a damn good reason to think they're in the game.
And its a more educated guess than thinking imps and gargoyles merged... since we have not a shadow of a hint that that might have happened.

And i never said that gargoyles would be in the necropolis.


"Do you know that the screenshot has come from the beta version? It could have, but even so I wasn’t relating to the creature lineup, I was referring to the creature Hit Points. Two different things. OK. Are you suggesting that the Cerberus is a level 3, or is not in the Necropolis at all, because both of those two possibilities for that happening is extremely slim. "

uhh... OK,

1. what version did the screenshot come from if it wasn't the beta version?!?!  the mickey mouse all-star version??? WTF... since 3do has released no "beta version"... then why is one piece of info more accurate than another piece released at about the same time?!?!

2. "I was referring to the creature Hit Points. Two different things. OK. "

it doesnt matter that they are two different things... look, the point i was making is this:
You said that my source of info about Black dragons was unreliable.  then you used a screenshot released at the same time as the very BACKBONE of your argument about cerberi.  Enough Said.

3. "Are you suggesting that the Cerberus is a level 3, or is not in the Necropolis at all, because both of those two possibilities for that happening is extremely slim. "

Hmmm... i am suggesting that cerberi are L2 neutrals.  and why the hell are "the possibilities for that happening extremely slim"???

Is Jennifer Bullard your sister?  Do you work for 3DO???

yeah... thats what i thought.  you have NO FREAKING EVIDENCE to back that up and you act like it is a fact.
ugh... THAT is why i called you an idiot.  And don't even try to act like you are right here, because your not.
even if you arent an idiot, you have been wrong on almost every front, this one included.  And yet you treat your ideas as fact. ugh.


"There is also no reason why it should have. Look at the other side of the argument. Before giving tips, do it yourself. Since the merging of Necropolis and Inferno has produced only 1 new creature in your eyes(Devil) I would have thought the change would have been larger, and there are many reasons why the cerberus should be in the Necropolis on top of the one I have just stated. Cerberus pictured in the screenshot. No other possible slot apart from neutral, generally speaking. A level 2 hasn’t gone without walker-flyer/shooter."

Once again... WRONG.  first of all, in my eyes imps and devils are the two infernos in the mix, not one.  that would make a 1/4 of the necropolis inferno creatures, 1/4 creatures new to the necropolis (ghost and venom spawn) and 2/4 creatures that were already there.  i think thats an even enough mix.

"Cerberus pictured in the screenshot. " as are mummies.  so i could argue with equal force that mummies are L2 and not cerberus.  So the screenshot evidence negates itself and thus yields no evidence relavant to the pending argument.
bota-bing.


"A level 2 hasn’t gone without walker-flyer/shooter."

ok... well you cant really say that... first of all, though we dont know the stronghold L2, its looking VERY VERY dubious that we will see a shooter there.
unless you propose that beholders will be there.  
its either them or harpy or a new creature.
and if you are correct about the cerberus GUESS, then that would mean that there would be a flyer and a walker, and no shooter... so you just completely stabbed yourself.

And even if that statement IS true, it accomplishes nothing.
each castle has a shooter at L2 simply because in the previous series, castles without a shooter in the 2nd level often got murdered early on, so to make it even...

my theory here however, has no holes.  there is not a place in all the castles where there is not simply a different kind of creature in each level.  Devil is either a flyer or a teleporter, and likely that he will be a spellcaster just because necro doesnt appear to have another spellcaster, so it would be likely to see one since 3DO said that there would be more creature spellcasters in H4 than in H3.

and why is the cerberus as a neutral SOOO unlikely??? you have never said why.


"Do you really think a mummy could be in level 2 or be a neutral? I don’t think so."

So just say something without explaining it at all... good

i would much rather think an old classic (like the mummy) that has always been in necro would have a better chance than a newcomer (cerberus)... but think what you want... Mr. Reverse Logic.



"The Vampire has even more chance of being in the neutral army, has there ever been a level 3 combination which strays of the common rule of walker, shooter/flyer?"

OK, ever heard of "going off the deep end"???
how do i say this... walker, shooter/flyer isnt a common rule... its more of chance.  since there are more walkers than anything else, there is a good chance that they will be a constant in a certain level.  L3 makes sense because a lot of the more powerful creatures, as has been shown in the past, have been walkers.  simple as that.  

Also, you said how my rule about different types of creatures in each level wasnt well founded, yet you make several of your own "rules" about creatures which werent mentioned in interviews, unlike mine.   eeeyeah.

"The mummy is really too strong to be a level 2, and the Cerberus too weak for level 3. And I doubt a neutral ending for it. "

ok, this one is reeally wrong.  have you not noticed how L2 in H4 is stronger than L2 in H3???!!!

ok, for instance, the MINOTAUR is L2 in H4... it was L5 in H3, while mummy was L3.
here are some more:
mage - L4 to L2
crossbowmen - L2 to L1.

and some have gone up:
Champion - L6 to L4
Monks - L5 to L3.

basically, the fact that there are 4 levels instead of 7, means that something that was one level in h3 will be at least 1 level lower... and most L3 creatures were L6 in h3... somehow i dont think mummies fit into that catagory... yeah.


AND ALAS! the biggest display of idiocy ever!
here it is folks!

"Even if the Devil has things that don’t even look like wings, but you say they are, it still doesn’t mean they can fly. It is possible, but as you say, look at the opposite side of the argument. "

Ohhhhh my goodness.  i actually laughed after reading this.

we'll start from the top.

1. first of all, look up the word "wing" in the dictionary, then tomorrow, find a biologist(or if you go to school still, ask your science teacher) and ask them to show you good examples of wings.  then come back.
OK, on a serious note, can you NOT SEE THE MOST OBVIOUS WINGS EVER???!!! they just happen to be where wings would be on a bird, just happen to be shaped the same... ahhhh im not even going to keep explaining it.. someone just IM him and tell him... jeez.

2. ok, they just have wings for the hell of it... riiiight.

3. well i looked at the other side of the argument which would be that they dont have wings... and they do have wings... so i dont know what the hell you're talking about...


"Yes. But how long ago was that e-mail message? Things could have drastically changed since then. And that was only mere speculation. Of course you could not actually prove it until the game has come out. "

That email message was about... 3 weeks ago.
of course it is not proof, but word from a designer is more likely correct than mere speculation by you...


"Hmmm? Where did you get that from? The internetis very misleading. You really don’t know the manner in which the person is talking in. And I wasn’t talking like that. "

ok, even if you weren't, it clearly appeared so, as im sure many would agree.  just re-read your posts before posting them to avoid this.


"Have you really confirmed those two are actually flyers. They are guesses. As I said before even though the devil has things that to you look like wings, there is no reason why they couldn’t fly. They teleported in Heroes 3. "

well, even if the most obvious wings in the world aren't wings, just random things hanging off the devil's back... and the devil is a teleporter, not a flyer, it still contradicts your rule of always having a walker.
so.. yeah.



im sorry if i have offended you by calling you an idiot, but i am fairly certain that anyone reading this post has similar feelings... just by seeing the lack of evidence to back up arguments, the sheer nonsense of some of the comments, and the lack of knowing what wings are...








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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 17, 2001 04:08 AM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 16 Nov 2001

OK, mister high and mighty, mister hey you get out of my face!

“ok... the screenshot was taken two months ago, and so were the stats... any version of a game 6 MONTHS before the game will be released is a beta version, DUH! did you think they had two different versions or something??? wtf... “

Nope. Of course there is only one beta version. The stats are probably more likely to change than the creature line-ups are, since the stats are in the internal part of the monster. (I.E. special abilities, etc. It really would make more sense if the stats did change, and the lineup did not AS MUCH because the statistics are a smaller part of the game in the context of making one.

“OK... we just had a picture of this stone creature with wings that looked exactly like a gargoyle, but NOOOOOOO we dont have ANY evidence that it'll be in the game... WTF.
even if its in the beta version, its still gives one a damn good reason to think they're in the game.
And its a more educated guess than thinking imps and gargoyles merged... since we have not a shadow of a hint that that might have happened.

And i never said that gargoyles would be in the necropolis.”

I see. Had the thought ever occurred to you that it was a beta Imp? Just like that Beta Dragon Golem which looked less mechanical? Yes, it is feasible that they are in the game, just not in the Necropolis. We have not have a shadow or hint that may have happened? What did you see in the screenshot? No Imp and what you claim to be a Gargoyle! Wonder where the Imp has gone in that pic, you must be thinking.

1. “what version did the screenshot come from if it wasn't the beta version?!?! the mickey mouse all-star version??? WTF... since 3do has released no "beta version"... then why is one piece of info more accurate than another piece released at about the same time?!?!”

No need to get rashional, I was just questioning if you knew if it was from the beta version. I didn’t say it wasn’t. They are two different things Camelnor. Of course, you believe it has the same effect.

“it doesnt matter that they are two different things... look, the point i was making is this:
You said that my source of info about Black dragons was unreliable. then you used a screenshot released at the same time as the very BACKBONE of your argument about cerberi. Enough Said.”

AH yes. Typical. Has the position of the Black Dragon been confirmed? Yes. Has the position of the cerberi? Nearly, since it has been pictured in a screenshot,(And don’t say the same thing) and also, what else do you think should go there? You cant have 3 level 2’s in one screen can you? So is this what you are proposing:
Imp & Zombie
Ghost & Mummy
Venom Spawn & Vampire
Bone Dragon & Devil
That… My dear sir is a very irregular lineup. Ghost and mummy? Please. The cerberi have shown more evidence of being in the level two slot than the mummy. The mummy has shown equal possibility of fitting into level 3 as the Vampire has.

“Hmmm... i am suggesting that cerberi are L2 neutrals. and why the hell are "the possibilities for that happening extremely slim"???”

We have not had any evidence that the Cerberi are neutral, yet we have seen even slight evidence that the Cerberi are in Necropolis, even though it is in the beta. Some is better than none. The Cerberi being level 3 is out of the question utterly.

“yeah... thats what i thought. you have NO FREAKING EVIDENCE to back that up and you act like it is a fact.
ugh... THAT is why i called you an idiot. And don't even try to act like you are right here, because your not.
even if you arent an idiot, you have been wrong on almost every front, this one included. And yet you treat your ideas as fact. ugh. “

Gee, it looks as though you are the one so fixated on that your ideas are facts, which they are clearly not. Have you even come up with an opinion for a level 2 creature in Necropolis?
I have evidence, but I would have thought you were smart enough to get my picture.

“Once again... WRONG. first of all, in my eyes imps and devils are the two infernos in the mix, not one. that would make a 1/4 of the necropolis inferno creatures, 1/4 creatures new to the necropolis (ghost and venom spawn) and 2/4 creatures that were already there. i think thats an even enough mix.”

I really was not thinking when I said one. Obviously there are two Inferno creatures in the Necropolis. The Ghost could almost be counted as a Necropolis creature, since it is the same as the Wraith of Heroes III. So we have with your system. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Necropolis creatures, with 2 Inferno, and 1 new. If it was with my suggestions: Necropolis: 4 Inferno 3 and New: 1. That would be more of an even spread, if you ask me. And why would they change the whole natie terrain for 2 out of the 8 creatures of the town? Makes you think, doesn't it?

"Cerberus pictured in the screenshot. " as are mummies. so i could argue with equal force that mummies are L2 and not cerberus. So the screenshot evidence negates itself and thus yields no evidence relavant to the pending argument.
bota-bing.”

Ha, you think you’re so good. But you are forgetting a crucial, crucial fact. There can’t be 3 level 2 creatures in one town! What came over you? With that comment you are saying that the mummies are level 2, and are cerberus supposed to go to level 3, are they? The screenshot does not negate itself, you do.

“ok... well you cant really say that... first of all, though we dont know the stronghold L2, its looking VERY VERY dubious that we will see a shooter there.
unless you propose that beholders will be there.
its either them or harpy or a new creature.
and if you are correct about the cerberus GUESS, then that would mean that there would be a flyer and a walker, and no shooter... so you just completely stabbed yourself.”

Huh? Are you saying that a walker is going to be in the Stronghold? You just said that we have confirmed that the Trolls aren’t going to be there, so there really is no other possibility of a walker being in the Stronghold. In this case, a Harpy (my most likely GUESS) or a beholder, (Not out of the question, since it hasn’t been confirmed anywhere else) could be in that slot. Harpy in my eyes, is almost confirmed though. I don’t think you’ll disagree with me there.

“my theory here however, has no holes. there is not a place in all the castles where there is not simply a different kind of creature in each level. Devil is either a flyer or a teleporter, and likely that he will be a spellcaster just because necro doesnt appear to have another spellcaster, so it would be likely to see one since 3DO said that there would be more creature spellcasters in H4 than in H3.”

Of course, you are the best, aren’t you? Necropolis doesn’t seem to have another spellcaster? I have just created a hole. Too bad. If you took my idea, and placed a mummy in level 3, wouldn’t you think, with the evidence of previous series, it can cast curse? Surely you knew that? Plus, all spellcasters have been level 3.


“and why is the cerberus as a neutral SOOO unlikely??? you have never said why.”

I have in the previous comments in this post. More specifically the one which is 6 paragraphs up from this one.

“o just say something without explaining it at all... good

i would much rather think an old classic (like the mummy) that has always been in necro would have a better chance than a newcomer (cerberus)... but think what you want... Mr. Reverse Logic.”

Eh, well, talk about my reverse logic… I wasn’t even suggesting that the mummy was a level 2, because I think it is a level 3. But of course you’ll come out with guns ablazing and say that the Vampire is there. Of course you will. The reason I think that a mummy is level 3, is because it matches the level 3 rule, cerberus is better for level 2, and it is a possible spellcaster. I could outline more, if you’d like.

“Also, you said how my rule about different types of creatures in each level wasnt well founded, yet you make several of your own "rules" about creatures which werent mentioned in interviews, unlike mine. eeeyeah.”

You make many flaws when you post important things, don’t you? Did I ever say that It wasn’t well founded? Unlike yours? Did anybody specifically say that there was going to be two flyers or two shooters? No. It just said that the creatures would be different. And since there has been most of the creatures bar what you think, I would have thought that all followed a common rule. Although it was a theory, it was a strong one.

“ok, this one is reeally wrong. have you not noticed how L2 in H4 is stronger than L2 in H3???!!!”

OK. The only reason I said this, is because the Cerberus is a better creature for the level two slot in my opinion, and as you said, some creatures go up levels. Could there be anything holding back the mummy from doing the exact same thing?

“AND ALAS! the biggest display of idiocy ever!
here it is folks!
Ohhhhh my goodness. i actually laughed after reading this.

we'll start from the top.

1. first of all, look up the word "wing" in the dictionary, then tomorrow, find a biologist(or if you go to school still, ask your science teacher) and ask them to show you good examples of wings. then come back.
OK, on a serious note, can you NOT SEE THE MOST OBVIOUS WINGS EVER???!!! they just happen to be where wings would be on a bird, just happen to be shaped the same... ahhhh im not even going to keep explaining it.. someone just IM him and tell him... jeez.

2. ok, they just have wings for the hell of it... riiiight.

3. well i looked at the other side of the argument which would be that they dont have wings... and they do have wings... so i dont know what the hell you're talking about...”

OK. This is going this is going to make you look like a really weird guy who doesn’t know what he is talking about. (Didn’t want to use a swear word)
Have you ever seen the animal the ostrich? Yes, no? Well, I have, and do you know what they have? No it couldn’t be! Yes it can, they have wings! Oh they have WINGS!!! Do they fly? Ohuh. They don’t. hehe. The most obvious wings ever? Really? Well, they just look like twigs on my monitor. The Black Dragon’s wings are much more viewable than if the Devil possibly had some. Yes, you are so mindset on everything you say. Devils could teleport is also the other side of the argument. Teleporting is not flying.

“That email message was about... 3 weeks ago.
of course it is not proof, but word from a designer is more likely correct than mere speculation by you...”

Is it not feasible that the things may change, as you yourself has pointed out? Of course I will believe it, if it wasn’t 4 months before the release date! The whole whole lineup could be wrong for all we know! Never be too sure.

“ok, even if you weren't, it clearly appeared so, as im sure many would agree. just re-read your posts before posting them to avoid this.”

Just look what you’ve been doing all over your last post! Isn’t that an example that contradicts what you’ve just said?

“well, even if the most obvious wings in the world aren't wings, just random things hanging off the devil's back... and the devil is a teleporter, not a flyer, it still contradicts your rule of always having a walker.
so.. yeah.”

Eh, not really, then. That is really not clear evidence, that is speculation. You yourself did not sound to sure on that. What about the Fairy Dragon? Just because it is a Dragon, you take it it can fly. Well. Have you heard of the Bearded Dragon, Komodo?

“im sorry if i have offended you by calling you an idiot, but i am fairly certain that anyone reading this post has similar feelings... just by seeing the lack of evidence to back up arguments, the sheer nonsense of some of the comments, and the lack of knowing what wings are...”

It’s quite allright. I like to reveal a crack in everybody’s argument. And I have done that today, so regardless of what you call me, I’ll just be making my comeback in fact or contradiction.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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DarkTitan
DarkTitan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 17, 2001 06:29 AM
Edited By: DarkTitan on 17 Nov 2001

The Cerburus should be lv2 but that is debatable but i think hydras right about these types of things (he usually is)

Anyway i think that Devils do have wings but they are not yoused for for flying, looking at a bird, their wings are about three times the siz of the body and that is hat makes them fly, as for the devil, their wings are so puny that the possibility that they could be used for flying in 1 in a million. On the other hand this is a fantasy game where anything is possible, but wait the dragons have large wing bigger than their body proving that their wing size has a lot to do with it. I agree with hydra when he said about the ostrich, its really good. Ostriches wings are so small that the aerodynamics of the ostrich flying is not possible. This is how H4 uses common sense in the game. Anyway the devil teleports
doesn't he?    

The Mummy or Vampire could either be in that slot. It is all a matter of who can cast spells. At this point, i think the mummy has the upper hand at this point, but it is liable to chnage in the future.


____________

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted November 17, 2001 10:20 AM

I'm out ....

.. from the above discussion.

Anyway, I've noticed that there are quite a lot of Neutrals on fairly high levels (mostly 3). I've also noticed that in some cases there neutrals sometimes come with the creatures in the town line-up.

Wouldn't it be nice if all towns actually had three choices for say the level 3 building in that town, and that the designers do their best to keep this secret from us?

Also aren't all of you surprised on the staggering percenetage of neutrals. 8 creatures x 6 towns = 48 creatures, plus 18 neutrals for a total of 66.

Heroes 3 had 8 towns x 7 creatures x 2 (normal and upgrade) = 112 cratures, and only a few neutrals (elementals and golems are the only ones that comes to mind.)

This high percentage of neutrals is a bit suspicious if you ask me.

Anyway, if we assume that the additional creatre is the spellcaseter and look at what creatures we then have in the towns.

Academy: Genie, Naga. Seems to be lacking a shooter. There's no good known candidate for this spot.

Asylum: Nightmare, Efreet. For the third level 3 we could have the Beholder (but then we get two spellcasters), so not all that likely. There's also a possibility for one creature which we've only seen the mini-icon for (Bluish creature which normally appears with Asylum creatures.). The Ice Demon is also a possibility for this town.

Haven: Crusader, Monk. There's no good known candidate for a third level 3. I guess if they are inspired by MtG, I guess we could see the Pegasi making a return here. It seems to be a flyer missing. Mind you if it comes into the Haven it will be without an elven rider.

Necropolis: Mummy, Vampire and Venom Spawn. (No problems there.) In addition we have the possibility to have the Ice Demon in this town.

Preserve: Unicorn and Griffin are confirmed. We're missing a shooter and/or spellcaster (which Maranthea must have conveniently missed telling us about). However, the Unicorn might just be a spellcaster so it could be a walker we're missing instead. There's a lot of possibilities here: Leprechaun, Mantis, Satyr, and Waspwort.

Stronghold: Thunderbird, Ogre Magi and Troll.

Neutrals I've not included: Gargoyle, Harpy, Pirate, Troglodytes. These are too weak for being level 3. I've also excluded Mermaid and Seamonster because we're told in one interview that these are not recruitable.

The creatures in Haven and Academy are accounted for, but that's manageableable we still have that many unknown creatures.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Triton
Triton


Adventuring Hero
Master of the Deep
posted November 17, 2001 10:32 AM

Thought I'd just drop in for a few words.I kinda agree with hydra too.It does seem more logical that half the necropolis creatures belong to the inferno,ie cerberus are more likely to be lvl 2.Anyway,the cerberus was one of the interesting creatures in h3's inferno with the devil and effret imho.Besides,the venom spawn seems more hellish than undead to me,so it's looks like it's an inferno critter.Between the vampire and mummy,think I'll prefer the vampire cos it's bloodsucking ability's just so great.

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Camelnor
Camelnor


Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
posted November 17, 2001 09:48 PM bonus applied.

since this post is eating up so much of my time just to reply to the extremely long replies, i will attempt to summarize it.  Also, it obviously has turned into a maze of contradictions on both sides of the argument(i will admit, i contradicted myself a couple of times, along w/hydra), and is starting to get a little to emotional (im sure some would agree w/me here).  So here i will attempt to organize some of the thoughts, since i have been misunderstood on almost every front, and words have been (whether on accident, or on purpose) put in my mouth.

it is unclear what the L2 Necropolis spot is.

i think hydra mentioned that i was mistaken in that there was 3 creatures here (or was it the stronghold?).  If I was unclear, here are my projected necro and stronghold lineups.

Necropolis:

1. Zombie and Imp
2. Mummy and Ghost (though i think it would be cool if the mummy was a L3 with a strong spell, i think it unlikely... but i never said they wouldnt be a spellcaster)
3. Venom Spawn and Vampire
4. Bone Dragon and Devil (whether the devil flies or teleports, i dont care... either way, it isnt a walker or a shooter and by either flying or teleporting, it serves the same general purpose)

Stronghold:

1. Beserker and Centaur
2. Nomad(Hydra seems to have overlooked this guy) and Harpy
3. Ogre Mage and Thunderbird
4. Cyclops(shooter) and Behemoth


Concerning gargoyles and imps:

I had considered the possibility that gargoyles were simply imp prototypes, but then i saw that they looked nothing like imps.  If you will notice, the screenshot that contained the gargoyles did not show the entire battlefield.  Some imps could have easily been out of the picture...



Concerning vampires and mummies:

I received an email reply from a 3DO designer stating that the vampire is in the necropolis.  Therefore, since i knew that venom spawn was L3, and that vampire would not be L2, I deducted that vampire is the other L3.
And since the mummy has been seen with the necropolis in screenshots, and was in the necropolis in H2, (it couldnt have been in H3, because it entered in an expansion pack, so no such maneuvers could be made), then i figured that it had a better chance than the cerberus, who were also in that screenshot, of being L2, simply because the mummy had been in the necropolis before and cerberus had not, and thus had an edge.

And since vampire had already attained the remaining L3 spot, i could not put the mummy there.



Concerning creature jumps in levels from H3 to H4:

although a few creatures have made slight jumps from H3 to H4, a jump from L3 to L5-L6(the equivalent of L3 in H4 is L5 or L6 in H3) in H4 would be a much bigger jump than any of the other creatures have yet made.



Concerning wings:

although you are correct, that the wings of the devils do not look like they would be big enough to support them, if you look at creatures in previous heroes games that had wings, you will find that this was the case with nearly all of them.  

for instance:
gargoyles in H3.
griffins in H2 and H3.
sprites in H2, H3, and H4.

also, the reason the wings look like bones and not filled out wings, is because the screenshot we have has black wings on a black background, thus making it very difficult to see all of the wings.
But they are no doubt wings.  the only thing that can be intelligently disputed is the wings' purpose.


Concerning Dragons:

I said that the Faerie Dragon is a flyer, simply because it was a flyer in H3.


I hope this post has hoped to clear things up for all readers, and to take some words out of my mouth which have been put there by someone else.




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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted November 18, 2001 01:22 AM

About the gargoyle / imp screenshot. The original does cover the full screen. There are no "imps" outside the picture. On the other hand, I'd say battle pictures gives no evidence at all that a certain creature is in a certain lineup. If you note, you can see that the Cerberi is actually fighting against the "necro" troops in the pic.

Concerning jumps.
The Griffins have made the jump from L3 (h3) to L3 (h4) already. So it's not impossible, though it's unlikely we will see many jumps of this size. The Pikemen also seems to make a fairly big jump up. The Minotaurs on the other hand seem to have fallen out of grace.

Orc L3 -> L1 (L1-2) DOWN
Minotaur L5 -> L2 (L3-4) DOWN
Pikeman L1 -> L2 (L3-4) UP
Crusader L4 -> L3 (L5-6) UP
Champion L6 -> L4 (L7) UP
Vampire L4 -> L3 (L5-6) UP (L2 would be normal)
Griffin L3 -> L3 (L5-6) UP
Ogre Magi L4 -> L3 (L5-6) UP
Cyclops L6 -> L4 (L7) UP

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 18, 2001 07:05 AM bonus applied.

Replies to....


This will also be my last post about the Necropolis argument, to make it fair by Camelnor.

DarkTitan:
Very good point there, DarkTitan, it really explained what I was trying to get at. We are really not sure if the Devil teleports or flies at this point in time. My guess is, um, well it could be either of them.

Djive:

“Anyway, I've noticed that there are quite a lot of Neutrals on fairly high levels (mostly 3). I've also noticed that in some cases there neutrals sometimes come with the creatures in the town line-up.”

Yes, it has been debatable, the creatures which were originally thought to be in the Preserve town (Leprechaun and Satyr) have now apparently been moved to the list of neutral. The mummy, Vampire or Cerberus has a chance of joining that list, too.

“Also aren't all of you surprised on the staggering percenetage of neutrals. 8 creatures x 6 towns = 48 creatures, plus 18 neutrals for a total of 66.”

Yep, a also think that the numbers of neutrals have risen. This has been partly because of Lord Paul’s discovery (Where is he?) that 3DO had actually planned for 6 levels per town, which equals to a total of 72, which is more than the neutrals and castle based creatures put together. Maybe some of them just weren’t up to their standards.

“Heroes 3 had 8 towns x 7 creatures x 2 (normal and upgrade) = 112 cratures, and only a few neutrals (elementals and golems are the only ones that comes to mind.)”

Yes, although there are no elementals and the golems have been moved to the Academy town. So that blanks out all possibility of those neutrals returning. But if you minus the upgrades, it equals 56 creatures; 10 less than HoMM4. On the other hand, count the gettable creatures in HoMM4: 60, it is still more than HoMM3. A different way of looking at things.

“(Bluish creature which normally appears with Asylum creatures.)”

I’ve pointed that one out, and since no other notable medusa was in the screeshot, and also because a medusa artwork has not been released, I come to the cocclusion that the creature you are talking about is the medusa. You can just see its snake-like hair.

“Necropolis: Mummy, Vampire and Venom Spawn. (No problems there.) In addition we have the possibility to have the Ice Demon in this town.”

Not likely, have you seen Necropolis’ native terrain? It is lava, and an Ice Demon would not fit in there. Too much of a mix then.

“Preserve: Unicorn and Griffin are confirmed. We're missing a shooter and/or spellcaster (which Maranthea must have conveniently missed telling us about). However, the Unicorn might just be a spellcaster so it could be a walker we're missing instead. There's a lot of possibilities here: Leprechaun, Mantis, Satyr, and Waspwort.”

Yes, but I think the Preserve castle has been confirmed, so those creatures are most likely to be neutrals. In my opinion, the most likely spellcaster is the Unicorn. (Can cause blind in Heroes III)

“Stronghold: Thunderbird, Ogre Magi and Troll.”

The Troll is most definitely a neutral. Ogre Magi Spellcaster, and Thunderbird (Flyer). In HoMM4, the Troll looks less ‘Strongholdish’ than in the previous series.

About the gargoyle / imp screenshot. The original does cover the full screen. There are no "imps" outside the picture. On the other hand, I'd say battle pictures gives no evidence at all that a certain creature is in a certain lineup. If you note, you can see that the Cerberi is actually fighting against the "necro" troops in the pic.

Yes, the Cerberi is actually fighing against Necropolis troops. But that could also mean he is fighting a Necropolis hero.

Triton:
“Thought I'd just drop in for a few words.I kinda agree with hydra too.It does seem more logical that half the necropolis creatures belong to the inferno,ie cerberus are more likely to be lvl 2.Anyway,the cerberus was one of the interesting creatures in h3's inferno with the devil and effret imho.Besides,the venom spawn seems more hellish than undead to me,so it's looks like it's an inferno critter.Between the vampire and mummy,think I'll prefer the vampire cos it's bloodsucking ability's just so great.”

Thanks for the support. I included the Venom Spawn as a new creature, since it wasn’t in either Necropolis or Inferno in HoMM3. Yes, I would also like to see a Vampire become a level 3, but am not so sure, because of difficulties I explained earlier. (Don’t want to start the argument again)

Camelnor:
“since this post is eating up so much of my time just to reply to the extremely long replies, i will attempt to summarize it. Also, it obviously has turned into a maze of contradictions on both sides of the argument(i will admit, i contradicted myself a couple of times, along w/hydra), and is starting to get a little to emotional (im sure some would agree w/me here). So here i will attempt to organize some of the thoughts, since i have been misunderstood on almost every front, and words have been (whether on accident, or on purpose) put in my mouth.”

I too find when I go to look at my thread. *Please not a long one, Camelnor!* Then I transfer it to word (Where I do all of my long post writing) It appears to be 4 pages long. I think I also contradicted myself a couple of times. Yep, definitely agree.

“it is unclear what the L2 Necropolis spot is.’

Wasn’t the whole argument about that? It is definitely unclear. Although, I put my tip on the Cerberus.

“i think hydra mentioned that i was mistaken in that there was 3 creatures here (or was it the stronghold?). If I was unclear, here are my projected necro and stronghold lineups.
1. Zombie and Imp
2. Mummy and Ghost (though i think it would be cool if the mummy was a L3 with a strong spell, i think it unlikely... but i never said they wouldnt be a spellcaster)
3. Venom Spawn and Vampire
4. Bone Dragon and Devil (whether the devil flies or teleports, i dont care... either way, it isnt a walker or a shooter and by either flying or teleporting, it serves the same general purpose)

1. Beserker and Centaur
2. Nomad(Hydra seems to have overlooked this guy) and Harpy
3. Ogre Mage and Thunderbird
4. Cyclops(shooter) and Behemoth


It was the Necropolis.
OK. Here are my finalised lineups.

Necropolis
Level 1 Imp (Flyer) Zombie (Walker)
Level 2 Ghost(Flyer) Cerberus (Walker) I think a mummy is a level 3 with a strong spell
Level 3 Venom Spawn (Shooter) Mummy(Walker, Spellcaster) Casts curse on opposing enemies. It just looks more likely that a mummy belongs here. (Explained in previous)
Level 4 Devil (Teleporter) Bone Dragon (Flyer)

Stronghold
Level 1 Berserker(Walker) and Centaur(Shooter)
Level 2 Nomad(I did not overlook him at all. Walker) Harpy (Flyer)
Level 3 Thunderbird (Flyer) Ogre Magi (Walker, Spellcaster
Level 4 Behemoth(Walker) Cyclops(Shooter)

“I had considered the possibility that gargoyles were simply imp prototypes, but then i saw that they looked nothing like imps. If you will notice, the screenshot that contained the gargoyles did not show the entire battlefield. Some imps could have easily been out of the picture...”

Yes, possibly, a very valid point. But, I don’t think they would have cropped it if there was a possible Necropolis creature.

“I received an email reply from a 3DO designer stating that the vampire is in the necropolis. Therefore, since i knew that venom spawn was L3, and that vampire would not be L2, I deducted that vampire is the other L3.
And since the mummy has been seen with the necropolis in screenshots, and was in the necropolis in H2, (it couldnt have been in H3, because it entered in an expansion pack, so no such maneuvers could be made), then i figured that it had a better chance than the cerberus, who were also in that screenshot, of being L2, simply because the mummy had been in the necropolis before and cerberus had not, and thus had an edge. “
Yes, but then there would be 3 level two’s in one shot. I really find it hard to believe that the Vampire could fit anywhere in the Necropolis, and then the designer siad it was in there. For me, that made it more complicated. May I ask, if the designer hadn’t said that, would you have thought the Vampire is in the Necropolis?

“Concerning creature jumps in levels from H3 to H4:

“although a few creatures have made slight jumps from H3 to H4, a jump from L3 to L5-L6(the equivalent of L3 in H4 is L5 or L6 in H3) in H4 would be a much bigger jump than any of the other creatures have yet made.”

There is no reason why a mummy couldn’t have jumped (Was it level 4 in HoMM3?) from level 4 to level 3. The ghost (Wraith from HoMM3, a level 3 went down a level, which is one lower than mummy)

“Concerning wings:

although you are correct, that the wings of the devils do not look like they would be big enough to support them, if you look at creatures in previous heroes games that had wings, you will find that this was the case with nearly all of them.

for instance:
gargoyles in H3.
griffins in H2 and H3.
sprites in H2, H3, and H4.

also, the reason the wings look like bones and not filled out wings, is because the screenshot we have has black wings on a black background, thus making it very difficult to see all of the wings.
But they are no doubt wings. the only thing that can be intelligently disputed is the wings' purpose.”

The case with nearly all of them? Compared to the Devil’s wings the griffin’s sprite’s and gargoyle’s are huge also in comparison to body size. Wings purpose: Looks? Teleporting implement?

“Concerning Dragons:

I said that the Faerie Dragon is a flyer, simply because it was a flyer in H3.”

Is Heroes of Might and Magic III different to HoMM4? Very different.



____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted November 18, 2001 10:05 AM

ThE HyDrA

- Everything is based on level 3 having three levels, and what the effects that would have on our assumptions. One of the effects of this would be that Maranthea would wittingly have failed to mention the third level 3 in Preserve, since the one who asked the question had no reason to believe there was a third level 3 to begin with. The other effect is that we have to try and find suitable level 3 Neutrals to put into the other towns: such as Trolls, Ice Demons and waspworts. (The whole discussion is a big "What IF there are 3 choices for the level 3 creature".)

- Mind you it wouldn't be too difficult for them to add a third level 3 alternative in the towns. The way the town views are constructed would make it fairly easy to do that. That said, I don't think they've planned this.

The "bluish creature" is not the Medusa. There are mini-icons for the Medusa in some of the asylum towns, so we know the look of that mini-icon. The "bluish creature" could however be the Ice Demon.

The thought is that a "demon" is appropriate for the Necropolis, considering that some other Inferno creatures already made the transfer to the Necropolis. They already seem to have the problem with having creatures on unsuitable terrain. (Would the Phoenix burn the Forest, the Naga is not a snow-creature, does the Efreet really like the Swamp to mention three cases.) OTOH the Ice Demon would fit better into the Asylum, than the Necropolis.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 18, 2001 10:20 AM


Djive

- “Everything is based on level 3 having three levels, and what the effects that would have on our assumptions. One of the effects of this would be that Maranthea would wittingly have failed to mention the third level 3 in Preserve, since the one who asked the question had no reason to believe there was a third level 3 to begin with. The other effect is that we have to try and find suitable level 3 Neutrals to put into the other towns: such as Trolls, Ice Demons and waspworts. (The whole discussion is a big "What IF there are 3 choices for the level 3 creature".)”

There are only two creatures per level. Why do we need to put some level 3 neutrals into towns? To make the possibilities more open? OK. Well the Trolls go to Stronghold. Ice Demons probably go to Academy, Waspworts to Preserve. But really we haven’t an indication as yet to what the neutral creatures are going tobe in terms of levels. We are just looking by their picture. I’d rather wait a while.

Mind you it wouldn't be too difficult for them to add a third level 3 alternative in the towns. The way the town views are constructed would make it fairly easy to do that. That said, I don't think they've planned this.

Yes, the creatures created have been thought out to match a style of castle, since they are so broad in terms of what creatures you can recruit in the town. Exactly my point. They wouldn’t have planned it, they could’ve rather done 6 levels.

The "bluish creature" is not the Medusa. There are mini-icons for the Medusa in some of the asylum towns, so we know the look of that mini-icon. The "bluish creature" could however be the Ice Demon.

The bluish creature is definitely not a demon. As you can see in a better screenshot of the demon, it is nothing like that of the creature in the screenshot. Maybe it is not even part of the Asylum castle, and his a mermaid? Who knows yet. We have to take educated guesses.

“The thought is that a "demon" is appropriate for the Necropolis, considering that some other Inferno creatures already made the transfer to the Necropolis. They already seem to have the problem with having creatures on unsuitable terrain. (Would the Phoenix burn the Forest, the Naga is not a snow-creature, does the Efreet really like the Swamp to mention three cases.) OTOH the Ice Demon would fit better into the Asylum, than the Necropolis.”

Yes, a ‘demon would do well in the Necropolis, but there are many better options available for the Necropolis other than the Ice Demon. If you ask me, the Ice Demon would od well in a snowy environment like the Academy. Efreet-swamp, that is a reason I am against the change of terrain. I think It should be created to fit all creatures well, rather than some greatly, and some poorly.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Shae_Trielle
Shae_Trielle


Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
posted November 18, 2001 10:28 AM

The issue of neutrals

Either they're going to remain neutral for the sake of variety, or... I don't know how ridiculous this is going to sound but...

another town that 3DO haven't told us about...?

*smile*

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Sha_Men
Sha_Men


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
posted November 18, 2001 11:31 AM

I don't believe that...

Quote:

another town that 3DO haven't told us about...?



Maybe in the expansion some neutrals could make up some town with some new creatures but otherwise...
Also what magicschool it would have?

I believe the current state of towns will be in the final version too and maybe in expansion they will add another town with new magictype or without magic at all...
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Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.

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