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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Inferno in HoMM 5 is UNDERPOWERED
Thread: Inferno in HoMM 5 is UNDERPOWERED This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT»
Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted December 22, 2007 11:26 PM

Inferno in HoMM 5 is UNDERPOWERED

I think inferno in HoMM 5 is underpowered.It just seems stupid to see whole united forces of asha fighting some weak demons in campaign.I just wanted to know if its only me who feels that or do other people have the same idea.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted December 22, 2007 11:51 PM

Pretty much just you. They just have a tougher week 1 unless they manage to get warmachines in the first days and are actually very strong.
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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted December 23, 2007 12:21 AM

I tend to blame initiative actually. Inferno troops have huge damage output but they are insanely vulnerable to damage themselves. If they don't have the first blow, they suffer badly, and it can determine the entire fight.

Initiative artifacts are what I believe truly imbalance the game, as well the random ATB value at the beginning of combat, it makes it VERY hard to plan.

Slow and Haste are nasty as well.

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samiekl
samiekl


Supreme Hero
posted December 23, 2007 12:23 AM

Quote:
Pretty much just you. They just have a tougher week 1 unless they manage to get warmachines in the first days and are actually very strong.


Play vs kispagat's inferno and then tell me they got tough start.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted December 23, 2007 12:25 AM

The guy from gmmari's clan? Thought he played sylvan, maybe I should ask him for a few tips
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samiekl
samiekl


Supreme Hero
posted December 23, 2007 12:27 AM

he wont give tips

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted December 23, 2007 12:29 AM

Ok point taken. I guess I'm used to most people offering tips at least of a basic nature.
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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted December 23, 2007 01:17 AM

Quote:
he wont give tips


Then he probably aint worth playing against either

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted December 23, 2007 01:46 AM

You'd be surprised how much you can learn from a good opponent even with no tips forthcoming.
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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted December 23, 2007 02:09 AM

I rather don't waste my time playing against people who are into it for winning and not for having fun.

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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted December 23, 2007 05:59 AM

Inferno isnt underpowered. But theyre sometimes badly dependent on luck. They need the right artifacts or the right skills to pop up or the right hero or the right week or the right ATB value in battle.
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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted December 23, 2007 06:35 AM

Practicing with Deleb (yeah I know she can be a bit much, but I wanted to see what she was capable of) I learned a few minor things about Inferno.  They can creep quite well actually.  Sure at first they have to avoid quite a few enemies..but once they get going they steamroll. Seducers make creeping much easier (except of course those creatures immune to mind effects).  Turning your enemy against itself early game is a huge help.  Rush to them and things lighten up just a tad.  
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Veteranewbie
Veteranewbie


Adventuring Hero
posted December 23, 2007 10:19 AM
Edited by Veteranewbie at 10:20, 23 Dec 2007.

Well personally I don't think they're particularly underpowered (though no doubt they can be made better with a few buff), but they have the worst start any race can have which can win or break a game

I don't particularly enjoy the concept of relying on war machine since they're useful for Inferno, but at the start of the game it doesn't really help that much, and it only helps when your hero gets better i.e. >5 unless you use Deleb, which I really dislike as I prefer to go random hero when starting a game

I have seen guys here giving some good advices on Inferno starting strategy i.e. upg familiars ASAP for creeping instead of imp and I have personally tested them. Helpful, but still doesn't solve the problem.

I find it quite stressful actually when playing an early Inferno game (though I like Inferno, perhaps I'm a bit masochistic) You just need to plan everythg a few steps ahead and one wrong move can cost you half of your army and thus the entire game (especially on small map)

Personally I think Inferno can be made better by boosting the Demons and succubus upgrade. Personally I think giving demon a 2~4 damage  range and the upgraded versions 3~4 damage range plus a small hp boost will be good. As although familiars deal good damage sometimes by themselves they're insufficient to kill fast enough, so having another damage dealer which is more expandable than your familiars really helps (leapers upgrade die just too fast and not damaging enough to achieve this)
And perhaps for the succubus a boost on the attack rating and a fire damage property (succubus being the Inferno only shooters are not damaging enough, and although the seducers are good for creeping, that'll make this alternative being chosen over the mistresses 90% of the time)

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Veteranewbie
Veteranewbie


Adventuring Hero
posted December 23, 2007 10:24 AM

Quote:
Practicing with Deleb (yeah I know she can be a bit much, but I wanted to see what she was capable of) I learned a few minor things about Inferno.  They can creep quite well actually.  Sure at first they have to avoid quite a few enemies..but once they get going they steamroll. Seducers make creeping much easier (except of course those creatures immune to mind effects).  Turning your enemy against itself early game is a huge help.  Rush to them and things lighten up just a tad.  


The reason why Deleb is good (I think) is because she can deal some really good damages with the ballista (much like a Dungeon or Academy creeping hero) w/o relying on the troops, and if you know what I mean. Losing those vulnerable and few familiars (they don't come in large numbers) early game can destroy you late game, and the demons are just too slow and piss poor in dealing damages (that's why I want the demons to deal more damages, just to help out those poor over-worked familiars)

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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted December 23, 2007 10:26 AM

I disagree with the proposals.

Horned Demons are the Inferno's crap unit, every faction needs at least one of those. As such they are perfect for buffer material in early game. Inferno just happens to suffer from more difficult early game.

As for the succubus, the ratings may seem low, but with that chainshot, they do 187,5% regular damage (spreaded over 4 enemies). That's almost like a constant lucky shot. Plus, they have ranged retaliation. I really don't think they are underpowered. You have to understand they are no more than a backup unit - inferno is a melee town. And for their single shooter they are quite decent, far better than H3's magogs.

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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted December 23, 2007 10:29 AM
Edited by Seraphim at 10:30, 23 Dec 2007.

They are complicated to play and risky too.I use mostly easier sides with more fun.I firstly liked the perception of inferno but they actualy were hard to play and I lost my entire army each time at the beginning.Other sides have better chances to win although.
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samiekl
samiekl


Supreme Hero
posted December 23, 2007 10:35 AM

Quote:
I rather don't waste my time playing against people who are into it for winning and not for having fun.


Keep in mind that toh is about competition whether you like it or not. If a guy doesnt give you tips, doesnt mean he's not fun to play, and the guys i'm talking about are very fun to play with.

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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted December 23, 2007 10:39 AM

Quote:
Quote:
I rather don't waste my time playing against people who are into it for winning and not for having fun.


Keep in mind that toh is about competition whether you like it or not. If a guy doesnt give you tips, doesnt mean he's not fun to play, and the guys i'm talking about are very fun to play with.


I changed my avatar cuz you thought i was moonlith.

And as for high damage output from inferno troops,one mass curse and that is it.And they are horrible with spells too.
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Veteranewbie
Veteranewbie


Adventuring Hero
posted December 23, 2007 11:38 AM
Edited by Veteranewbie at 12:36, 23 Dec 2007.

Quote:
I disagree with the proposals.

Horned Demons are the Inferno's crap unit, every faction needs at least one of those. As such they are perfect for buffer material in early game. Inferno just happens to suffer from more difficult early game.

As for the succubus, the ratings may seem low, but with that chainshot, they do 187,5% regular damage (spreaded over 4 enemies). That's almost like a constant lucky shot. Plus, they have ranged retaliation. I really don't think they are underpowered. You have to understand they are no more than a backup unit - inferno is a melee town. And for their single shooter they are quite decent, far better than H3's magogs.


Giving the demon a minor damage boost doesn't mean it is not crap. I think the difficulty inferno suffer is this - they really don't have any good damage dealers (in early game terms). For other factions their shooters or heroes will fill up this slot (perhaps with the exception of Fortress and that's why I also heard of complaint for fortress early games). As for Inferno one can get better only when they build dog houses and succubus halls quick (upgraded) but I assume that's already week 2~3 happening
With the demon growth rate, giving them a tiny damage boost can make Inferno much better in taking out creeps (the familiars actually can do quite well in killing creeps but I can only say not enough), and such boost will not make familiars useless as relying solely on demons damages are not enough, hence it will encourage using a combo of familiars and demons.

I have tried a game recently using stronghold (and for the first time). With 100 centaurs by week 2 (two weeks growth, another hero and a dwelling, and because my starting centaurs can take out the dwelling guards) I have cleared all creeps around the area that takes one day walk from my town, and by week3 I have got all dwellings plus a castle. While on the same map using Inferno, I have to struggle in deciding whether to build a hell charger dwelling or castle, and that's week3, and I have played Inferno for quite some time already.  

As for succubus, I am referring to the whole tier general (including the non-upgraded and seducers), not only the mistress. With the seducers seducing abilitiy I presume that 90% of Inferno players will use them instead of mistress, giving them some attack buff may encourage more uses of the mistress.
Succubus is not underpowered I agreed (I won't mind if Nival leave them only), but they're mediocre, and we have quite a load of mediocre units in Inferno.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted December 23, 2007 12:38 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 12:56, 23 Dec 2007.

Quote:
he wont give tips


no good player gives tips. They are his strength and skill, why to give them away? You can share the basics with other but the best things are yours and yours alone.

Quote:
I don't particularly enjoy the concept of relying on war machine since they're useful for Inferno, but at the start of the game it doesn't really help that much, and it only helps when your hero gets better i.e. >5 unless you use Deleb, which I really dislike as I prefer to go random hero when starting a game


I don't understand the problem. Deleb is great (boring, but great). To get level 5, clear the ore pit and the sawmill and take some exp from chests at start. Voila, you have level 5 on third day. By taking correct perks, you will always get ballista and tent skills at level 5, and triple ballista will eventually follow.

What do you mean by "it doesn't help much" ? Creeping with machines always beats creeping with units, unless the game is long or takes place on some uber rich maps. I thought it's a given :-X

Quote:
For other factions their shooters or heroes will fill up this slot


Shooters? Do we play a different game or? Except arcane archers, shooters are grossly underpowered in this part of HoMM. And they matter pretty little. We're not talking about heavily artificed titans here, of course.

Quote:
(perhaps with the exception of Fortress and that's why I also heard of complaint for fortress early games).


You never saw ingvar's little defenders with battle frenzy, bloodclaw amulet and rune of berserking, then.Not only very tough, but also surprisingly strong.

Quote:
I have tried a game recently using stronghold (and for the first time). With 100 centaurs by week 2 (two weeks growth, another hero and a dwelling, and because my starting centaurs can take out the dwelling guards) I have cleared all creeps around the area that takes one day walk from my town, and by week3 I have got all dwellings plus a castle.


That is a coincidence. I assume, if you met arcane archers, your precious centaur numbers would be like halved. Besides you had an external dwelling, why do you even take it into account? Every castle becomes better with external dwellings. You got all dwellings? Lucky you. Don't play rich maps with poor guards then Inferno can get all dwellings on very poor map with strong guards (i.e. level 4s guarding mines, meaning elder druids or arch mages..). Stronghold can only dream about getting it as early as inferno. ToH introduced way too many rich two castle maps which brought too much imbalance into this game. ~~

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