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| Thread: Are deleb and wyngaal still overpowered? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 12, 2008 11:40 PM |
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I wouldn't play him. Come on +20% to ALL units and especially sylvan that relies on swiftness? At least with Haggash the bonus is only on the centaurs that have medium initiative, are large can be blocked anyway.
All sylvan units apart from treants will probably act first and attack with avenger and luck - game over.
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Ceres
Supreme Hero
and sweetness
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posted May 13, 2008 12:23 AM |
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I agree with that and it's scary... 
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And when the stars fall, I
will lie awake. You're my
shooting star.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2008 07:04 AM |
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"Come on +20% to ALL units and especially sylvan that relies on swiftness?"
But how about Academy? They can have with mini artefact's +35% to initiative each turn, not only at start of combat... And indeed Sylvan relies on speed, if they are slow they are dead ... From my personal practice i played Wyngaal against Odiak Haggash orc's with diplomacy on RMG Huge 3x3, i done good game, tacked native towns match earlier, but lost big time, no chance at all ...
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 13, 2008 08:21 AM |
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Diplomacy is another case, if a horde of tier 6-7 joins it's not the same. As for academy they are weaklings on their own and need artificer to survive in later stages of the game.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2008 10:52 AM |
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Quote:
Some players refuse to play against Wyngaal, other use him ... Are Wyngaal baned or not ? Way people afraid of Wyngaal ? I think Kragh, Hagash are much more strong heroes ....
I would never allow my opponent to play Wyngaal.
Under Wyngaal's command sylvan is the fastest faction. Lets propose that army and heroes'stats are around equal, init decides. Who strikes firts has a great advantage. Crystal dragon with 18 init solely could mean that the battle is over. Even with swift mind your hero has very slight chance to be in first positions to move.
And do not forget that Wyngaal starts with the most important skill for sylvan: tactics. With this skill creeping, which is not so difficult atm also, becomes very easy.
Just check the init by default sylvan has.
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted May 13, 2008 03:29 PM |
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speciality was decreased, is very good still , but its not a gamebreaker. what makes wyngall dangerous is tactic skill, not speciality.
if u get yourself tactics aswell, i dont mention the light perk or any necro set combo, ull see a differnt wingall.
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted May 13, 2008 05:09 PM |
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More of a question is:Are Ingvar and Sinitar still overpowered?
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted May 13, 2008 05:15 PM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 17:16, 13 May 2008.
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I don't think both Deleb or Wyngaal are overpowered, they both are just easier heroes to win with, the best strategy to use both is more obvious than with other heroes. Take Dirael ofr example; she's said to be one of the weakest Sylvan heroes... LIES !
In Dirael's case the best strategy isn't so obvoius (or easy) as with Deleb or Wyngaal, but that doesn't mean she's weaker than them. Dirael + Imbue Arrow + Imbue Ballista + Triple Balista + Expert Wasp Swarm + Avenger is a kick@$$ !! (Anxur gave me that tip, so all credit goes to him/her  ) She still needs WM to be powerfull though, so you really need to get it as soon as possible...
It's just a matter of knowing which strategy you should use; wyngaal obviously needs attack and luck to maximise his initiative bonus; Deleb needs War Machines and Attack (flame arrows), and maybe luck to maximise her potential.
I can't understand why Wyngaal should be stronger than Gilraen, who IMHO are far more dangerous than him (Gilraen's Wind Dancer are simply indestructable and overpowered). I think Gilraen is overpowered: Expert Defence + Evasion + Vitality + Protection + Wind Dancers = a pain in your honourable @$$ !!
The same applies for Deleb; Her specialty is strong in the Early-game, her strategies are obvious; but a well trained Alastor can easily defeat Deleb (even weak Grawl can do it if he can get Master of Ice + cold death). Strong Dark or Destructive Magic can be far more dangerous than Delebs ballista (especially in the end-game) If Deleb can get her hands on the ring of Machine affinity, she's almost undefeatable...
So I say, Wyngaal: Not overpowered, but has rather clear strategy requirements
Deleb: overpowered, but only slightly ( Alastor is very close and so is Grawl, but only if he can get a high SpP)
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2008 06:05 PM |
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As Sylvan i always take Ossir as start hero, but if i see in tavern Wyngaal, i take him as main hero ... From discussion i see Wyngaal have many opponents, but supporters too  So it's not baned, i will use him in my games ....
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2008 06:08 PM |
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Sry, Lexxan, but I think in any balanced map Gilraen or Dirael does not have any chance against Wyngaal.
And its very simple to understand why:
It could happen easily that your wind dancers will not move at all, and you can be sure that the ballista with a "ridicolously slow" 10 init will not shoot.
And dont forget it not just that speciality but tactics skill is important, which helps creeping a lot, e.g. the chance that you can take out neutral shooters without any loss rises significantly level by level (not to mention familiar ground or boots of speed +1)
If anyone wanna test it, I am ready for it.
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2008 06:10 PM |
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Quote:
As Sylvan i always take Ossir as start hero, but if i see in tavern Wyngaal, i take him as main hero ... From discussion i see Wyngaal have many opponents, but supporters too So it's not baned, i will use him in my games ....
Against me surely not
Ossir is still one of the best hero, you dont need a half-god.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted May 13, 2008 06:13 PM |
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Quote:
Sry, Lexxan, but I think in any balanced map Gilraen or Dirael does not have any chance against Wyngaal.
And its very simple to understand why:
It could happen easily that your wind dancers will not move at all, and you can be sure that the ballista with a "ridicolously slow" 10 init will not shoot.
And dont forget it not just that speciality but tactics skill is important, which helps creeping a lot, e.g. the chance that you can take out neutral shooters without any loss rises significantly level by level (not to mention familiar ground or boots of speed +1)
If anyone wanna test it, I am ready for it.
Haha! but I have a secret weapon against Wyngaal (*rubs his hands evily*): NERIBOS !!!
Evenso, I think Alastor is another intersting Wyngall-counter, as are Jhora and Irina
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2008 06:18 PM |
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Haha! but I have a secret weapon against Wyngaal (*rubs his hands evily*): NERIBOS !!!
Evenso, I think Alastor is another intersting Wyngall-counter, as are Jhora and Irina
These are good ideas, but they can not take the first strike option away from sylvan army. Even swift mind get your hero between 10.5-17.5 starting init. Most probably thats not even enough the begin with a slow or haste.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted May 13, 2008 06:22 PM |
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Quote:
So it's not baned, i will use him in my games ....
One question Infinitus
Why would you choose him if you know he is broken? Because he will win you the game? Because he gives you an advantage no other Sylvan hero gives you? Or because he makes creeping so much easier?
What I just don't understand is why people (this is not you specifically)choose to play with the things that give them the biggest effort without doing anything for it...
@Lexxan
His name is Nebiros
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2008 06:25 PM |
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To Kispagat - Need to test, but way only Dirael or Gilraen ? Wyngaal are accused in cheating ... So to prove that hi is not guilty need to beat him with any other hero/faction ...
TO Azagal - i don't think he is broken, i use him because is one of the best sylvan hero... If he is broken, need proofs, replays please were Wyngaal is imba ...
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted May 13, 2008 06:35 PM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 18:37, 13 May 2008.
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Quote:
@Lexxan
His name is Nebiros
Sorry, but I have Dyslexia, and btw, I like NERIBOS more than NEBIROS
@Kispagat and infinitus: No you don't get the initiative bonus but imagine Jhora with Expert Destructive, Deep Freeze, Cold Death and Master of Ice (byebye Wyngaal).
Irina's (Imperial) Griffins can battle dive as soon as they can act, just try to keep them out of harms way and the battle dive the enemies, while the rest of your army keeps them busy (I imagine the Crossbomen and Inquisitor can give wyngaal a hard time before falling). Let the Griffins battledive Wyngaal's forces in this order: Hunters, Druids, Dragons, Dancers, Treants, Unicorns, Pixies
Dirael isn't my fav hero, and honestly, I don't think she can beat Wyngaal.
Gilraen on the other hand; I once gave an enemy Wyngaal such a hard time with my Gilraen (Gil had Dark Magic, Defence and Leadership, all at expert level). Our troop's size were almost equal, I had more Dancers, Unis and Druids, he had more Dragons, Hunters, Treants and Sprites... Anyway, I kicked his poetic... backside 
I agree with Agazal though; Wyngaal is the most difficult Sylvan Hero in the early-game, even with attack and tactics.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted May 13, 2008 06:39 PM |
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Quote:
Sorry, but I have Dyslexia,
My bad sorry I didn't know.
@Infinitus
Guess there is no need to talk as long as I think he is insanely broken and you think he is ok.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted May 13, 2008 06:42 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Sorry, but I have Dyslexia,
My bad sorry I didn't know.
You just have no idea how long I had to practice to spell emilsn correctly...
Anyway, you're right again
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2008 06:44 PM |
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If he is insanely broken he must win any game for players that use him ... I played one time with Ossir against Wyngaal, and Wyngaal lost ... I played with Wyngaal one time against orcs and lost ... So way do i must think he is broken ? Pure theory ... Ring of speed is insanely broken too ?
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted May 13, 2008 06:46 PM |
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Wyngaal's problem is that his speciality is a one-time bonus, and just isn't present in the rest of the game. I think that Gilraen or Ossir are more powerfull, if used correctly.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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