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| Thread: Gedankenexperiments of Might and Magic: Part I - The Races |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Tobius
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 20, 2008 10:57 PM |
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Edited by Tobius at 23:04, 20 Jan 2008.
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Hum, so do you think the concept has nothing to do with the Heroes franchise, right? I hadn't planned on that. Well, but I cannot really understand why it is such a big problem to fit demons and undead side by side, because it is your choice whether you want to mix them. The concept itself only gives you the chance to do so.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted January 20, 2008 11:48 PM |
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Quote:
TBS strategy
Sorry, had to comment: TBS = Turn Based Strategy.
So you said "Turn Based Strategy strategy"
Its a bit like saying "ATM Machine" (Automated Teller Machine Machine)
And I agree that Demons and Undead should not necessarily mix. This was an Idea put forward in Warcraft and Heroes VI. My feeling is that they would not get along on a base level: Vampires (and other undeads) fear Fire, becuase it will make them burn and dust (or disintigrate in some other way) and Demons are firey peeps.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted January 20, 2008 11:52 PM |
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Quote:
This was an Idea put forward in Warcraft and Heroes VI.
Was it now. 
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted January 21, 2008 01:02 AM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 01:18, 21 Jan 2008.
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Upgrades
Personally I think there are far more illogical concepts in the heroes games (Like how the hero's Attack and Defense rating affect the creature's attack and defense rating), and one of the topics you should just accept the way they are. Alci had a good, creative alternative upgrade system though
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Mixing factions
Funny, that was the same stance Heroes IV took. And what a succes that was Sorry, but I disagree that mixing factions is a step forward, and that it is "needed" to somehow evolve. Especially when the mixtures make no sense whatsoever. If something is good, DON'T change it - as you can only make it worse.
Clerics and Mages fight together regardless wether or not they are in the same faction. Fact is, their playstyle is and should be completely different. The only necessity I see in mixing factions, is to reach the number of 22 creatures per faction more easily.
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Multiple creatures on each level
The problem is that balancing the creatures is exactly what is the problem. It is near impossible to make two completely different creatures equally as usefull, let alone do it for up to 4 and 5 creatures in the same faction of the same tier!
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted January 21, 2008 05:08 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
This was an Idea put forward in Warcraft and Heroes VI.
Was it now.
[facepalm]
I meant IV.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted January 21, 2008 05:43 AM |
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Quote:
Sorry, had to comment: TBS = Turn Based Strategy.
So you said "Turn Based Strategy strategy"
Its a bit like saying "ATM Machine" (Automated Teller Machine Machine)
Now, now, it was a lapsus, not worth of mentioning again Of course there is no need to say strategy twice but it happens in hastened posting.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 21, 2008 01:13 PM |
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Upgrades
I want to quote Charles Watkins, because I could not find any better expressions:
(...)
If you expand this basic idea of the enhancements, than you can increase the tactically side of the game even further.
I agree that the concept of upgrades has not always been fully logical through the Heroes series - and I would certainly like to know more about this alternative system you refer to. Buying "addons" will in terms of gameplay work pretty much the same way as the current upgrades, and if one finds that more logical I have no objections to that - as long as there is some sort of extention of the unit.
Also, one should notice that in terms of upgrades, Heroes 5 has actually fairly consistently avoided most of the pitfalls of some Heroes 3 units - I don't think we have any sex changes (Rakshasas?), and in most cases what we see is actually in effect just a retraining of the unit - with some exceptions, like the Hell Hound growing an extra head, and the magical beasts like Dragons. Personally, I haven't got many objections to the dragon system (Shadow upgrades into Red or Black, etc.) - yes, I understand that the re-upgrade of a Red into a Black might seem illogical, but so be it for the sake of gameplay. The change in production would simply correspond to new facilities accomodating other and more powerful units.
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Mixing factions
The premise of the whole concept is to evolve the Heroes franchise with giving the players much more freedom in playing the game. (...) The aim is that the player should be able to play the Heroes he wants to play. The limitations of fixed factions are just disturbing within this context of a greater freedom. This concept does not force the player do to anything.
Well, we are starting to move into dangerous ground here, because a lot of this is very subjective - what is better for one is not necessarily better for the other. Personally, I don't find the system you propose to give more more freedom. More options - yes; more freedom - no. Now I have to decide whether I want, say, Angels or Titans - I cannot have both. With the multi-level system, I can choose to have both, given that the resources would allow it. Obviously, the two systems are not completely comparable, but personally I feel that the current system gives me amble of room to plan for myself - will I go for, say, tier 5 + tier 7, or will I rather focus on tier 6, or maybe tier 5 + tier 6? In "normal" games, I will possibly not be able to have both tier 5, 6 AND 7, and therein lies the tactical choice for me.
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The only limitation is the race you choose, and these races are not simply thrown together factions of former Heroes games. They are a step forward to a more tactical and strategical gameplay. We do not speak of Inferno or Haven anymore, because they are not existing anylonger - they are completely overhault. The idea of changing details of old factions and adding more and more upgrades, artifects, etc. is all wrong. If Heroes shall live on to the next decade bigger changes have to come. This concept tries to show one possibility to follow this route.
Well, here we completely enters the real of subjectivity. First off, I will have to say that arguing that the old concept of factions is no longer valid seems wrong to me - but whether you call the factions Haven and Academy and have them separate from each other, or call them Humans and make them consist of a blend of these two makes no difference in the end. There are still factions, they are just different.
Secondly, there's a dangerous old proverb saying: If it works, don't fix it. Now this is a very dangerous and thin line to walk, because I for one strongly objects to the idea of making a "new" game without making something new. However - and I hate to say this - one has also sometimes to respect the atmosphere and history of the game. Now this is kind of a lame argument to use, because obviously with time, anything new becomes old, and hence a part of the history - but we have also to accept that fans of a game series will leave the series if they cannot relate to the new universe - and that was what happens for a very large part of the fans with Heroes IV. And for me, redoing what has proven to be a mistake, is simply plain stupid.
I think I have yet to find the Heroes fan who thought that mixing Inferno and Necropolis was a brilliant idea - they may be out there somewhere, but they are few. And I think that with mixing other towns like Haven and Academy you will simply destroy the beautiful atmosphere of the towns that I think Heroes V captured exceptionally well.
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Multiple creatures on each level
The principle of choosing the creatres you want for your army correlates with the premise of a greater freedom. (...) If we look further to a 7 stack army we have incredible 6400 possible combinations. That is what I call diversity.
While these calculation are tecnically true, in reality I think it's unlikely to work this way. There will always be certain units that are more attractive - for instance, low level shooters are always helpful in creeping, whereas low level slow tanks generally not have much of a use (Zombies, Demons, etc.). Certainly, there might be times where you choose to go against your conventional choice - like, if an enemy army approaches your castly, you might wanna go for those really tanky alternatives to buy you time during siege - but I think the alternative upgrade system is much better accomodated to take care of that kind of decisions than the Heroes IV model, because the choice in that model is not permanent but rather something you can change depending on situation.
And again, I would like to point to Heroes IV and ask again: How many players DID actually make a new choice each time they played a specific faction? Wasn't it always a question of finding the tactic that worked best, and then you stuck to that one - or was that just me?
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What will happen now?
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted January 21, 2008 03:45 PM |
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Nice post with valid points. You should give yourself a QP 
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted January 21, 2008 03:55 PM |
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Thank you
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted January 21, 2008 04:02 PM |
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@Moonlith: Nice.
@Alc: You talk like Tolkien, but I agree with you. However, about combining factions: Where do we draw the line for that? I mean, wasn't beta Sylvan basically Conflux (Sprites, Pheonix) + Rampart (Wood Elves, Treants, Unicorns)?
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 21, 2008 04:12 PM |
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Quote:
However, about combining factions: Where do we draw the line for that? I mean, wasn't beta Sylvan basically Conflux (Sprites, Pheonix) + Rampart (Wood Elves, Treants, Unicorns)?
Hmm, I don't know, I guess it's not really possible to put direct limits on what's good and bad. But remember that Phoenix and Sprite were in Sorceress town back in Heroes 1 and 2 also. But to me creatures can move to towns even if they have not been there before, does it fit the theme - Griffins were in Dungeon before they came to Haven, then they went to Sylvan and now back to Haven, where they are actually very much the defining beat (Griffin Empire) - except that with TotE, I think that became Unicorn Empire, so who knows, maybe in H6 we will have champions mounted on Unicorns.
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What will happen now?
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Tobius
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 22, 2008 04:24 PM |
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Edited by Tobius at 16:24, 22 Jan 2008.
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Hey everyone,
As you can see, I've heavily edited my first post, so there are no suggested line-ups anymore. Why did I do this? Well, I read your rejections of a so called "Infernopolis", etc. I think the problem was that I somehow steamrolled you with the exact line-ups which prescined from the basics of the concept.
What I want is a discussion about the concept itself and not the line-ups like it happend before. I hope for more fair comments and suggestions for improvements. The reason for doing this step is, because I don't want to draw the curtain over this concept before there was any real discussion of it. So far just the line-ups were assessed, but not the concept itself.
Well, I hope now can start a real discussion.
Greets
Tobius
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