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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Guarantee to get Earth?
Thread: Guarantee to get Earth?
HeymlicH
HeymlicH


Known Hero
posted January 24, 2008 06:09 PM
Edited by HeymlicH at 11:47, 25 Jan 2008.

Guarantee to get Earth?

I did an analysis plus some testing on this. Please note, that we are talking about might heroes only. If your Solmyr develops differently, this is expected. He is a magic hero and this whole topic doesn't apply to him. Here is, what I found out:


There are several threads here, dealing with secondary skill development. There was some very old post by one of the vets, stating: "You are offered a magic school every 4 Levels, if you turn down all magic offers". I was going with this statement for a long time, and found it is "almost" true. But it leaves open questions.

I will first give an overview how spell schools are offered. All the information there is known and available somewhere in this forum.

For further information, check this thread

and a more recent discussion here

Then I will explain some special cases. In the third part I will show, that it is always possible to make sure to get expert earth until level 20, for some of the most popular main heroes.

1. How does it work?
You are guaranteed to be offered a spell school latest 4 lvl after the last time you had been offered a spell school. It's really that simple.

2. This means:
- you are offered your first spell school at lvl 4 latest.
- you can be offered a school earlier. In this case, the next spell school will be offered earlier, too.
- It absolutely doesn't matter if you accept the offer, or turn it down (I tested this)
- It also doesn't matter, if you are offered a basic, advanced or expert skill.
- Since you are offered wisdom every 6th level, it might happen, that wisdom is offered, instead of a spell school. In this case, a magic school is offered at the next level.
- If the school, that would be offered, already is at expert level, a different school is offered instead. (I tested this using scholars)
- A hero will never be offered a secondary skill, that is not available to his class. This means: A beastmaster is not allowed to learn fire magic. If he has Water, Earth and Air at expert level, and the last magic school was offered at level 12 (can easily happen with magic universities), he will _not_ be offered a magic school at level 16, since this could only be fire, which is not allowed for a beastmaster. (I tested this)


3. Is it possible, to make sure earth magic is offered to your hero?

The answer is: For the classes, that are restricted to 3 schools - yes. For classes that are allowed to learn all schools - no.

Some of the most popular main heroes are Beastmasters, Barbarians, Overlords and Rangers. All these heroes are guaranteed to be offered earth magic, if the right sequence is used. It doesn't work for Demoniacs, Knights, Death Knights, Planeswalkers and Alchemists.

How does it work?

I will show at the example of Gunnar, how it can be made sure to have expert Earth at level 20. This is the worstcase - it is very likely that you get it earlier. Note, in this plan you don't get Wisdom. I will show later, that it is possible, to make sure to get expert Earth and wisdom at level 23. But I think most MP players would rather skip wisdom, than waiting for expert earth until level 23 (which probably is not reached in an MP game, even 20 is very much)


so, here is the worstcase, where you are only offered a spell school, when the program has no other option

Gunnar
L1: Log (B), Tac (B)
L2: Log (A)
L3: Log (E)
*L4: Fire (B)
L5: Tac (A)
L6: Tac (E)
L7: Fire (A)
L8: Fire (E)
#L9: Off (B)
L10: Off (A)
L11: Off (E)
*L12: Air (B)
L13: Air (A)
L14: Air (E)
#L15: Arm (B)
L16: Arm (A)
L17: Arm (E)
*L18: Earth (B)
L19: Earth (A)
L20: Earth (E)

At L20: Expert Tactics, Logistics, Offense, Armorer, Fire, Air, Earth, 1 Slot free

Note:
- at level 6, 12 and 18 you are offered wisdom, but you have to turn it down
- Level 9 and 15 are critical. All existing skills are expert. You will be offered two new skills, which might be crap. In my example I was thinking positive, and took Offense and Armorer. However, you might end up with scouting and Mysticism instead

Basically the idea is, to max all existing skills, so the game has no other option than offering you the (existing) spell schools. After the spell schools are expert, you take a (new) might skill, and max it. This takes exactly 3 levels, and at the 4th level you are offered the next school, and repeat the sequence.

If you are offered a school earlier, this doesn't harm the plan. Just switch the places. It not only doesn't harm, it is an advantage. If you have expert fire at Level 7, you are allowed to pick a new might skill at level 8, reducing the chance of unwanted skills.

Over many years I did the following mistake: At level 9 I would have picked a wanted skill from a hut or university, to make sure I don't end up with scouting. This is wrong! You will end up with the same problem at level 11, while the next magic is offered at 12.

In the end you have 1 free slot. I will show, how you can use this, to get wisdom as well, on the cost of getting earth 3 levels later (this works with other skills, too).

Everything comes at a price: You are guaranteed to get Earth, but you may have to turn down useful skills, risking to get several unwanted skills. I don't say you sould do this. I just say: It is possible. It is up to you, to decide what is more important for your game plan.

You can deviate from this plan at any time. You probably will, latest when you have earth and air. I suggest to follow the plan first, but if you see better options, take them. For example: If you have air, and are offered water with a beastmaster at level 12, you might turn it down, take wisdom and hope to get earth at level 16. It might fail, but you still have air + wisdom. However, if you started with water, you probably would take air instead of wisdom at lvl 12.


I want to show another example, where Fire is already at max at level 7, and you are allowed to take basic Offense at level 8, instead of expert tactics.

It doesn't affect the plan.

Gunnar
L1: Log (B), Tac (B)
L2: Log (A)
L3: Log (E)
*L4: Fire (B)
L5: Tac (A)
L6: Fire (A)
L7: Fire (E)
L8: Off (B)
#L9: Tac (E)
L10: Off (A)
*L11: Air (B)
L12: Air (A)
L13: Air (E)
L14:  Arm (B)
#L15: Off (E)
L16: Arm (A)
*L17: Earth (B)
L18: Arm (E)
L19: Earth (A)
L20: Earth (E)

Here an example where you take Wisdom at 6, getting expert earth at level 23 latest. Probably the best choice for SP players.

Gunnar
L1: Log (B), Tac (B)
L2: Log (A)
L3: Log (E)
*L4: Fire (B)
L5: Tac (A)
L6: Wis (B)
L7: Tac (E)
*L8: Fire (A)
L9: Wis (A)
L10: Wis (E)
L11: Fire (E)
#L12: Off (B)
L13: Off (A)
L14: Off (E)
*L15: Air (B)
L16: Air (A)
L17: Air (E)
#L18: Arm (B)
L19: Arm (A)
L20: Arm (E)
*L21: Earth (B)
L22: Earth (A)
L23: Earth (E)


You might think now, this is very complicated. It isn't. All you have to do, is to follow these rules:


1. If you are offered a spell school, always take it, no matter if it is basic, advanced or expert.
2. If you are not offered a spell school, always take the existing skill, not the new one.
3. You have one free slot. This means, you can take one additional skill, and still get expert earth at level 23 latest.



Again: It is posssible to make sure you get earth (or any other magic school you want to have). It is up to you to decide, if it makes sense for your game plan

Edit: I want to add a plan I found for expert air at level 23, where you are allowed to take one additional might skill in the beginning, and later get wisdom, too. For me, a SP player, this is the favourite skill plan currently.


Gunnar
L1: Log (B), Tac (B)
L2: Log (A)
L3: Off (B)
*L4: Fire (B)
L5: Tac (A)
L6: Off(A)
L7: Tac (E)
*L8: Fire (A)
L9: Log (E)
L10: Off (E)
L11: Fire (E)
#L12: Arm (B)
L13: Arm (A)
L14: Arm (E)
*L15: Air (B)
L16: Air (A)
L17: Air (E)
#L18: Wis (B)
L19: Wis (A)
L20: Wis (E)
*L21: Earth (B)
L22: Earth (A)
L23: Earth (E)


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dimis
dimis


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
posted January 24, 2008 06:49 PM

Interesting ...

I want Dingo to comment on this, just like he did in one of the threads on your links above.
____________
The empty set

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HeymlicH
HeymlicH


Known Hero
posted January 25, 2008 10:58 AM
Edited by HeymlicH at 11:23, 25 Jan 2008.

I did excessive testing on this theory, yesterday. It always worked (tested it with Tazar this time)

I want to add two things:

- If you want wisdom,  you have to take it at level 6, no matter whatelse is offered. If you insert it at 12 or 18, you don't get the third spell school. Interestingly, in this plan you take a new might skill at level 12. This meanss: If you are satisfied with Earth at level 23, you are allowed to take one additional might skill during the first levels, plus wisdom at level 12 or even 18. In this sequence, you have the best chance, to get some good might skills, too. So, if you expect to go as far as level 23, I suggest to follow this plan.

- You have to turn down many good skills. So obviously, this approach works best, if you have a hero, which starts with the two skills you want most. Gunnar is perfect for this. If he is banned, I suggest to go for one of the heroes which start with Offense/Tactics. It works for Tazar too, and most of the time his development was acceptable, but if you are extremely unlucky, you may end up with 3 spell schools + 3 unwanted skills + Armorer.


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