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| Thread: The Heroes VI of your (?) dreams |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 03, 2008 03:08 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 23:01, 03 Mar 2008.
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The Heroes VI of your (?) dreams
What you’re going to read is the result of a homemade game-designing contest that I made up with a bunch of friends not many weeks ago. Essentially, the files linked below are a dream of a hypothetical Heroes of Might and Magic chapter designed followings some relatively known designing theories. When I made up this (it was hand-written, and in Italian) I had just started playing Heroes V, and wasn’t really an expert of that game – felt more comfortable with Heroes 3 and Heroes 4. With the ICTC 3, I thought it could have been a good thing if I shared these ideas with you (actually I'd like to share them with Nival, but I suppose they have better designers to listen to) instead of keeping it among us four just as a reason to brag me with them. I also added something with my new (if little) knowledge of the fifth chapter while rewriting and translating the whole thing (I excuse myself in advance for any misspelling my imperfect English may inflict to you). Then I stocked everything on Media Fire following suggestions of the mods.
Here's the whole work, about 30 pages more or less:
http://www.mediafire.com/?r2dum4nwmmn
However, I also parted the file into separate files for subject, if you're only interested in part of the project.
To find out more about the game crafting theories behind the project, here’s the link:
http://www.mediafire.com/?idlxufobs9x
Here’s the innovations to be introduced in the town development system:
http://www.mediafire.com/?0d1wokim2tx
Alignment and Orientations – a specific feature of this chapter, which sits at the core of the design theories behind it, it’s VERY IMPORTANT to understand the game:
http://www.mediafire.com/?odmw2wfddhw
The Hero’s management system – actually a light tweak of the one featured in Heroes 4:
http://www.mediafire.com/?7lxdj11dndt
The scroll system –a bunch of adjustments I felt needed to the functioning of Magic:
http://www.mediafire.com/?fquhdmy7hd2
What I spent more time with was to adapt each faction to the theory the game should follow. Some of the factions had to be modified in characterization to maintain the scheme respected, and I hope this won’t upset anyone. Also, to make things work, I needed ten factions. While I’m no artist, I was therefore forced to create two wholly new factions (Palace and Burrows) which, I hope, will meet your favor. Here I go describing each faction:
Castle town description:
http://www.mediafire.com/?dgumimilxyt
Fortress town description:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ayj04tdmxbl
Palace town description:
http://www.mediafire.com/?1fnkmdj9myx
Academy town description:
http://www.mediafire.com/?mbidv0tqdlt
Dungeon town description:
http://www.mediafire.com/?e1xcm7m10my
Necropolis town description:
http://www.mediafire.com/?fltzwmnzdtd
Stronghold town description:
http://www.mediafire.com/?izx3wf0x9ix
Inferno town description:
http://www.mediafire.com/?mleyqdyxpkm
Rampart town description:
http://www.mediafire.com/?vxddtzhydt0
Burrows town description:
http://www.mediafire.com/?mbnkuzxmjlv
As a last thing, I once wrote a Heroes of Might and Magic fan fiction that could, supposedly, be the storyline for this chapter, having characters from all factions and it’s own cosmogony. But while I kept said storyline in mind when imagining the game, this has no relevance whatsoever with game mechanic, there’s why I didn’t transcript and linked the file with the storyline.
This is the result of my hardest work, and causes much satisfaction to me reading it finished. I hope at least some of this satisfaction will be shared with you.
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Tobius
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 03, 2008 04:36 PM |
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Looks very promising, but I think your links are a little chaotic, because the link to "Heroes management" links to "Scroll system", etc.
So, you should correct that.
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 03, 2008 06:34 PM |
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Momo, do you have this as a single Word file?
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted March 03, 2008 06:39 PM |
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Quote:
Momo, do you have this as a single Word file?
Yes, that would make things much more simple. 
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 03, 2008 07:17 PM |
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Yes, I do. I separated the file into multiple files to make easier to find what one wants to read without reading the whole thing. However, if you want to read the thing as a whole:
http://www.mediafire.com/?r2dum4nwmmn
I'll also fix any link problem within this evening.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted March 03, 2008 08:38 PM |
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Actually tested it, and came up with a few mislinks:
Hero's Management links to Scroll System
Scroll System links to Castle
Castle links to Fortress
Fortress links to Palace
Palace links to Academy
Academy links to Dungeon
Everything's in order, except you missed out on Hero's Management and doubled up on Dungeon.
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 03, 2008 10:17 PM |
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 03, 2008 10:53 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 22:56, 03 Mar 2008.
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Quote:
Actually tested it, and came up with a few mislinks:
Hero's Management links to Scroll System
Scroll System links to Castle
Castle links to Fortress
Fortress links to Palace
Palace links to Academy
Academy links to Dungeon
Everything's in order, except you missed out on Hero's Management and doubled up on Dungeon.
I'm starting to think that parting up the file wasn't a great idea after all. It's better if the one-page link is used, I'll copy it in the first page. In the meanwhile I'll try to fix this. Thanks.
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Online-readable format
I am very grateful for your help, but I have some problem in reading it (REALLY hope it's only me). Everything between The Scroll System and Dungeon vanishes.
It's kinda embarassing that the hardest thing turned out to be making this readable to you guys. I'm looking like an idiot.
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 03, 2008 11:09 PM |
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So you can't see Academy for example?
PS don't worry, we're none of us pefect! 
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 03, 2008 11:12 PM |
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Quote:
So you can't see Academy for example?
PS don't worry, we're none of us pefect!
Exactly. At some points of the scroll system the line gous out of the screen and then it's all blank until Dungeon.
Besides that, I supposedly fixed everything with links on the first page and added the mono-page link. I hope we will be able to talk about the work in itself rather than about my incompetence in sharing it.
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 04, 2008 12:42 AM |
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Odd, works fine for me, I could see Academy...
Will try to read at least some of it soon...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 04, 2008 07:27 AM |
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Just a question here, don't get me wrong, I haven't read this thoroughly enough to give an evaluation of the quality of your work, but isn't this 100 % Heroes 4 spin-off?
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What will happen now?
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 04, 2008 10:45 AM |
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Edited by Momo at 13:13, 04 Mar 2008.
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@Alcibiates:
No, for a couple of reasons. The hero system looks similar (almost identical) because I felt it was a much better system than any other for a mix of freedom, uniqueness and simplicity. I only added what I felt it lacked.
The alignments are also similar for 5 out of 6, but only in name (because I preferred using names already known to Heroes' players); if you take the time to read it, you'll discover that they aren't what they were in Heroes 4.
The town development is different in many ways, one being that it rsembles the one form third chapter and not the fourth (where you had not the option to build anything past City Hall economically speaking) but, more importantly, I gave (or tried to) a "unique economy system" to each town, wich is a wholly new concept.
Lastly, the factions are different, and much more inspired from Heroes V (although, as I said, I used to know better the fourth chapter than the fifth when I wrote). NO INFERNOPOLIS, NO ASYLUM.
So, while certainly Heroes 3 and 4 where more of a inspiration than Heroes 5 when I wrote, it cannot be said that this is a improvement of Heroes 4, because takes too many elements from Heros V: TotE
@Gnoll Mage:
the problem was due to my PC, I changed PC and it reads perfectly. Thanks again.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 06, 2008 11:23 AM |
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Quote:
nice attempt to update the town system, congratulations.
I like the themes different for each town,
Thanks. I hoped for more criticism and/or reviews, but whatever.
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especially Castle.
Yep. It was an harsh decision, making a town with 2 creatures and 6 upgrades.
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I'd like to know your ideas about Magic System,
Well, aren't these self-evident? I think that having luck influencing a game can be a feature, and not necessarily a bug; Magic The Gathering (and TCG in general) takes luck intou account... heck, Niccolò Machiavelli said strategy is always influenced by luck, and he knew something of strategy.
But when luck can be the only factor allowing you a strategy or preventing you from developping it, EVEN if you spent the whole game trying to build that strategy (for instance, Draca-Geddon) I think look is taking too much space, and the system should be fixed.
If you pay attention, there are some creatures in the game suseptible of being part of a DracaGeddon: Phoenix, Black Dragon, Magmadragon, Magic Elemental, Fire Elemental. No one can have all these and at the same time obtain Armageddon in the mage guilds. I preferred making Armageddon obtainable at 100% and making the tactic much harder to build, than basing the whole thing on luck.
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Skills
I think too much skills generate confusion. That's why, even after studying the Heroes V skill wheel, I kept my original system (heroes 4 based). Eassentially, my core interest is avoiding every possible suituation where the player is stuck with an hero customization he/she didn't want.
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and gameplay.
Could you be more specific?
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 10, 2008 06:36 PM |
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Ok, there's something I can't really explain to myself. According to media fire, an average of fifteen people or so downloaded the file and therefore, supposedly, red at least part of it. Now, more or less I get no feedback at all about the work?!? At the very worst, you could tell me you didn't read through all of it because it was so boring that it sucked. But not even a comment? Weird.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted March 11, 2008 06:53 AM |
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Sometimes patience is required. If it was too awful, I am sure they would have let you know by now. The same if it was mind blowingly amazing (though they may be too stunned by its awesomness and unable to put it into words yet). Feedback can sometimes be hard to get however (trust me I know, as some of my works languish do to lack thereof).
Some people who read it may not have the time yet to reply. I will read it when I can and reply when I can, once I am able to download it. It can be frustrating, but keep up the work. Eventually you will get feedback, one way or another.
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Message received.
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LucJPatenaude
Disgraceful
Known Hero
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posted March 12, 2008 12:29 AM |
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Do not even bother hoping for feedback, buddy.
Like Alcibiades said, it looks way too familiar. HoMM4 look-alike system and interface look = instant disaster and disgust from a wide majority of the HoMM franchise's fan base/owner-player of it as well.
Hint: Do not attempt to retrograde the game's interface system, use your imagination to improve from HoMM5, only.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 12, 2008 01:00 AM |
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Edited by Momo at 01:02, 12 Mar 2008.
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Do not even bother hoping for feedback, buddy.
Actually, telling me I won't get any feedback while giving me negative feedback is quite contradictory. But, if anything, I'm quite happy because THIS IS feedback.
Quote:
Like Alcibiades said, it looks way too familiar.
Alcibiades didn't say it. He asked it, after reading the first pages, and I explained that this isn't the case if you bother reading the whole thing. Which of course can be contradicted, after reading the thing and telling me it still looks too similar. But I strongly suspect you didn't.
Quote:
HoMM4 look-alike system and interface look = instant disaster and disgust from a wide majority of the HoMM franchise's fan base/owner-player of it as well.
The fact that you repedeatly stated that you dislike HoMM4 isn't going to erase the fact that it was tactically superior to HoMM3 in many aspects, a great success for critcs, and yes, I admit, a moderate failure with players, but even then I could add that I spoke with many players of what they felt was missing from HoMM4 before making it.
Plus, besides the Hero system, would you mind telling me what aspects are too similar to Heroes 4? Factions, creatures, recruitement system, scroll/spell system, and just everything about economy differs totally from Heroes 4 as much as it can without stopping being an Heroes game. So what's your point?
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Hint: Do not attempt to retrograde the game's interface system, use your imagination to improve from HoMM5, only.
Actually, Heroes 5 is a retrograde in respect to Heroes 4; read any respectable review of these two games, and the commonest complaint will be that Heroes 5 doesn't differ enough from Heroes 3 (and it's actually a step back in respect to the innovations of the fourth chapter. Then again, Heroes 5 is a overall better game because it interpretes the spirit of the series better, but that's another story that has nothing to do with gameplay.
Plus, after having read almost every faction in the ICTC 3 contest, I'd tell you that I'm quite sick of this idea that Heroes 5 reached perfection and every faction is better designed the better it sticks to Heroes 5 canons. Like every series that has a long list of chapters (or hopes to) HoMM must reinvent itself, or be doomed to never expand its fanbase and unexorably losing it piece by piece; this idea that nothing HoMM 5 introduced or rejected from its predecessor should be changed isn't exactly the top of game-design.
I welcome negative feedback, but the overall impression is that you didn't read anything besides the fact that I liked Heroes 4. If you want to tell me my work sucks, you should at least put some effort to look at it.
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LucJPatenaude
Disgraceful
Known Hero
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posted March 12, 2008 01:27 AM |
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Played HoMM3 and all of its expansions + W.o.G 3.5.8's a Mod. Like it very much, thank-you.
Owned and played HoMM4 and all of its expansions + Equilibris 3.5.1's a Mod. The whole interface is a total disaster in both adventure map and especially the siege or battlefield combat mode. Did not like it at all. Played a maximum of 5 to 6 games per version of HoMM4 and, reverted back to HoMM3-W.o.G. instantaneously.
Owned and played HoMM5 + expansion of H.o.F. + Stand-Alone redux version 3.0 of HoMM5-T.o.t.E.. And, liked it so much, do not even bother to think of going backwards in time to those ancient and derelic versions of HoMM. Yesterday, I downloaded the Alpha3 version of Quicksilver II, a newest improvement bound Mod. by BigJocker. Did not tried it yet and, can not wait to have the time to do just so. After all, it already has some of the traits that I've included in my already made interface design proposal for the upcoming HoMM6 installment of the franchise of HoMM.
Getting the overall point here, buddy?
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 12, 2008 01:35 AM |
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Edited by Momo at 01:35, 12 Mar 2008.
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Quote:
Getting the overall point here, buddy?
Yes, the point is "I like Heroes 3, dislike Heroes 4". I got that already without this last post.
Now, how about YOU trying to get my points, huhm? Namely:
A) "I like Chess, dislike Go" is personal taste, not an analysis of game-design. Your personal tastes (as well as mine) are unrelevant, we're tyring to speak of what would make a deep, well thought game.
B) Most experts tend to agree that Heroes 4 failed because it introduced too many innovations at once to the point of betraying the fanbase (besides the fact that aesthetically was quite ugly); they also tend to agree that Heroes 4 had many innovations worth saving.
C) THE MOST IMPORTANT - My work doesn't look enough like Heroes 4 for your point to have any relevance in order to judge it.
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