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| Thread: FITNA - The controverse and provoking video of Geert Wilders |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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angelito
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posted April 01, 2008 08:53 PM |
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FITNA - The controverse and provoking video of Geert Wilders
I posted this already in the "Muslims are terrorists" thread, but seems it got pretty much overlooked. So I will make an own thread about this video and the consequences it may have.
I am very much interested in your opinions.
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Anybody seen that 15 min. lasting video FITNA from that dutch politician Geert Wilders? If so, what's your opinion about it?
For those who haven't seen it or don't know what I am talking about, here are some infos about that movie and the producer: Wikipedia: FITNA
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TnT_Addict
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posted April 01, 2008 08:55 PM |
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baklava
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posted April 01, 2008 09:39 PM |
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Hm. Controversial indeed.
Makes you wonder a bit. From all sides.
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Azagal
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posted April 02, 2008 11:54 AM |
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Edited by Azagal at 12:10, 02 Apr 2008.
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You get the whole truth in just 15 minutes, awesome 
I hope it would open more eyes in the world.
This is true?!
"What makes Allah happy? Allah is happy when non-muslims get killed"
"We will cut of the Jews head! Jihad for the sake of Allah!"
3 and a half year old girl "Jews are pigs and apes"
"God bless Hitler"
"Islam is the best religion there is. If someone converts to Christianity he deserves the death penalty"
"Islam is a religion that wants to rule the world"
"If my mother or my sisther have sex with someonelse I'll kill them"
"Abandon democracy ... etc. anything that comes from the human brain"
"We denounce freedom of speech or alternative is democracy"
"Quran license to kill"
... This is true for the people who want to belive this bullsnow. Yes there are live images from women being shot, people saying they will kill for honor, gays being hanged, legalizations of killing homosexuelles/Jews/"enemies of Islam" and all other horrible inhuman things but they are real for the freakin minority of people!! This movie is nothing but a hate speech and fearmongering!
I bet you my life that I will find 3 and half year old children in any other place in this world who will say exactly the same thing about muslims! It's completly ridicolous and very low to take that child as a sort of "argument" in this movie! SHE'S THREE YEARS OLD FOR HEAVENS SAKE!! Give her a candy and she'll say ANYTHING about Islam! How the hell is she supposed to know what's wrong or right? HMM?!? TELL ME!
Statement no man in his right mind could possibly think actually represent Muslims:
"What makes Allah happy? Allah is happy when non-muslims get killed"
"We will cut of the Jews head! Jihad for the sake of Allah!"
"Islam is the best religion there is. If someone converts to Christianity he deserves the death penalty"
"If my mother or my sisther have sex with someonelse I'll kill them"#
Did you actually look at the people saying that stuff? They had fanatic written all over their faces!! Of course these people pose a very real threat but how the hell can one take these people as the representors of Islam? Give me one reason why I should think a normal muslim is anything like that!
This is about the part where he lists how many muslims live in the netherlands:
What's with the stupid numbers?! Who cares how many muslims live in Europe?! This is fearmongering! He acts as if these people were a threat. It's like creating a diagramm of how many blacks/russians/gipsys/chinese whatever group of people you can think of have immigrated. WHAT DOES IT MATTER?! How are they any threat to anyone?! You have 54 million muslims in Europe.... BIG DEAL! Sure there are fanatics included but they don't represent the majority of people HOW IS THAT NOT UNDERSTANDABLE?!?
FEARMONGERING:
This movie makes it look like as if people should be afraid and that they are in real danger! Check this out:
"The Netherlands future? <<Two gays being hanged>>"
How is this by any chance even slightly possible ever to happen in the netherlands? That hanging was a public event were everybody was welcomed how HOW will that ever happen in the Netherlands?
This is by far the most pathetic part of the movie:
"Muslims want you to make way for Islam but Islam does not make way for you"
Please note how he says "Muslims" not fanatics/religious freak/jihad warriors/a radical minority no... he says "Muslims".
"The Government insist you respect Islam but Islam has no respect for you"
...The freakin Bible doesn't respect any "heretics"... My god... but if they have the same line in the Koran it's a major threat to the world and the number 1 commandment of the whole religion. Give me a break...
"Islam want's to rule, submit and destroy our western civilization"
This is really really cheap. Well for that matter the whole movie is... anyways maybe my belief in the reason of people is in vain but who in his right mind would buy that?!? Again he is grosly generalizing! "Islam" not Al-Quaida or whatever no it's "Islam" that want's to destroy our western civilization! This is so disgusting... can anyone tell me how this isn't fear mongering? He is telling you that Muslims and Islam are a threat and a danger to you!
"In 1945 Nazism was defeated in Europe
In 1989 Communism was defeated in Europe
Now the islamic ideology has to be defeated"
This was my favourite one... if it wasn't so disgustingly perverted I would have laughed... How can anyone agree with this if he has actually understood what this guy is doing. Islam is just as evil as Nazism? WHAT?! I won't even boarder to explain to you how wrong this is as I hope all of you are enlightend enough to see it.
"Defend our freedom" .... ... yes plase defend our freedom! Denounce all your muslims friends, go out and make way for "reason" now that I have shown you the true face of Islam you can protect yourself against the evil scum that threatens to takeover our land. We are in danger! Watch out who you trust they will destroy our civilization! We must act quick!
Please tell me how what he is doing is ideologicaly any different from what you actually see in the movie?
EDIT: The thing is that you have to do something about the things you see in the movie. That's the real problem. YES!! But Equaling what you see with Islam is so disrespectful,wrong,low,unjust,ignorant and unhonest. My god this movie is going to influence a hell of a lot of people. What about all the normal muslims the majority of muslims who will now be treated even worse by the masses of repulsively ignorant and stupid people who think this is by any means Islam.
EDIT II: Oh and the whole quoting from the koran is obscene! You have all the same snow in any religious book in the world (maybe not buddhism/rastafarians but you get my point). And here is something I think is very true
Quote:
The only Muslims you'll see on TV are the ones protesting.
The only Christians you'll see on TV are the ones protesting.
I usually don't agree with most things mvass has to say but how is this not true? And how doesn't this apply to this trash?
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Lexxan
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posted April 02, 2008 12:19 PM |
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I can already predict what will happen to Wilders. After Theo van Gogh and Pim Fortuyn, Wilders will be the third Dutchman, who expresses his opinion and dies because of expresssing it.
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Mytical
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posted April 02, 2008 12:25 PM |
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I almost fully agree with Azagal. It is easy to demonize or label people. People have been doing it for as long as man has exsisted probably. I can just imagine a caveman (if you follow evolution that is) thinking "Ugh might try to steal gah's woman, me have to stop that." then saying. "Ugh eat babies, he evil, we kill Ugh."
I know several Muslims, who I consider friends. They don't have a violent bone in their body, and detest the sensless violence of the type of people who do things like 9/11.
It is indeed just as bad as saying "All Jews should be killed" or "All blacks" or etc. There is NO difference. What next, concentration camps? Oh, but I guess it would be different because they are our enemies? B.S.
A wise man once said, "You have nothing to fear but fear itself". Fear makes people irrational, violent, and drops their intelligence to below that of a rock. (Sorry for any rocks out there I insult by the example). Sadly mankind is too blinded and won't see that such petty differences like religion, sex, age, color of skin, ect don't ammount to anything. Not anytime soon that is.
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Azagal
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posted April 02, 2008 12:26 PM |
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The thing is he isn't just expressing his opinion. There is nothing wrong with expressing your opinion. But a reasonable person should be aware of the fact that if you create a movie about any group of people you will influence many viewers. Therefore it is your responsibility to represent your opinion in a proper way. What he is doing is by no means even near adequat. If he would say "Do something about islamic fanatics" or "Islamic fanatics want to destroy our civilization" I'd be fine. But he is pulling all muslims into the same mess. Which is (seriously I can't find words to express my deepest disapointment and disgust for that person) iresponsable to say the least.
But yeah he'll probably die. Which of course isn't justified.
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Mytical
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posted April 02, 2008 12:35 PM |
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Yep, I agree with all but the last sentence of your post. Anything that just lumps any people (regardlesss of who they are) and incites violence is just fear mongering. Sad thing is our president at the time jumped on that bandwagon also . Was a dark day for America.
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angelito
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posted April 02, 2008 01:11 PM |
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But doesn't the reaction of many muslims underline the idea behind that video?
The internet server LiveLeak, which had this video uploaded first, deleted this video 2 days later again, coz of serious threats against emnployees, including death threats (You can read their statement on their homepage).
Or just remind the danish cartoons....
Would a catholic or protestant group try to KILL someone who shows a cartoon where Jesus is hanging on the cross with let's say a bikini dressed on?
Btw...all the movie parts in that film are old and already known...nothing there is new. It could be seen years ago. So it is nothing but a compilation.
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Azagal
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posted April 02, 2008 01:42 PM |
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Quote:
But doesn't the reaction of many muslims underline the idea behind that video?
Yes it does. But do you really think that it is right to generalize as he does? There are many muslim fanatics as there has been no such thing as the "Age of Enlightment" in the arabic world. I say this without wanting to insult anyone but it's a fact that there has been no offical criticism of god in the arabic world. And the only one who has criticised it (Salman Rushdie - Satanic Verses) is now a wanted man and it's the obligation of every "true" beliver to kill him. The video would have been fine if he wouldn't but muslims and Islam on the same level as the fanatics groups of that society.
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The internet server LiveLeak, which had this video uploaded first, deleted this video 2 days later again, coz of serious threats against employees, including death threats (You can read their statement on their homepage).
Sorry but I don't understand your point. Islamist threaten to kill people because they've been insulted (?). Haven't other people also done this before?
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Or just remind the danish cartoons....
Would a catholic or protestant group try to KILL someone who shows a cartoon where Jesus is hanging on the cross with let's say a bikini dressed on?
No but they kill did before the age of enlightment. They've burned them on public places. I do realize that we've past that point already but there have been such things until recently (KKK). But perhaps I missed the point.
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nothing there is new. It could be seen years ago. So it is nothing but a compilation.
Sorry but it is not "just" compilation. He doesn't just show the pictures. Of course the pictures speak for themselves the fact is he then connects the evoked fear/disgust/whatever feeling you have when you see the images with muslims and Islam. Doesn't he? That's where the whole thing is wrong.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted April 02, 2008 01:46 PM |
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I might convert to Islam.
I feel alot safer 
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Geny
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posted April 02, 2008 01:56 PM |
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I haven't seen the movie itself, but I can guess pretty good what's shown there judging from Azagal's post and my own knowledge.
It's true that the radical muslims are but a minority, but they are a very powerful minority and very dangerous to boot. That's why it has to be dealt with one way or another.
As to the rest of the muslim world, they have full right to be offended by the ideas in the movie, but their anger should not target only its creator, but those fanatics as well, because they are the ones that bring all the muslims bad reputation. There are 2 things in Azagal's post I would like to comment:
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This is true for the people who want to belive this bull****
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It's completly ridicolous and very low to take that child as a sort of "argument" in this movie! SHE'S THREE YEARS OLD FOR HEAVENS SAKE!! Give her a candy and she'll say ANYTHING about Islam! how the hell is she supposed to know what's wrong or right?
That is very very true. However, it's only true for muslim haters, nut for muslims themselves as well. If a muslim will want to believe what some radical imam (sp?) or just some other guy are saying about killing non-muslims, he will. And then he'll join that minority of radical muslims...
...And then he will talk to his little three and a half year old girl and explain to her Jews (for instance) are all bad and evil men. That girl will grow up believing his father (who wouldn't?) and a decade or two later when she'll be a grown woman she will act accordingly.
The point I'm trying to make here, is that we probably can't do anything about those radical movements, unless we got to the extreme of concetration camps or something like that and that's a bad idea, so the best thing we can do is apply pressure on the muslim community to fight their fanatics themselves from within, where it could work.
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Azagal
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posted April 02, 2008 02:21 PM |
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Well Geny I advise you to watch the movie as my post is not exactly neutral . It's based on what I belive in which may not be what you'd take reassurence in. Nevertheless I honored that you'd take me as reference . But well maybe you really don't need to watch it considering it's message.
I agree with your comments on my remarks but I must admit that my
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This bullsnow is only true for those who want to belive this
statement is not quite clear. Of course everything we see there is real, what I ment to say was that it's ridicolous to belive that what you see actually represents Islam and muslims.
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The point I'm trying to make here, is that we probably can't do anything about those radical movements, so the best thing we can do is apply pressure on the muslim community to fight their fanatics themselves from within, where it could work.
There is nothing wrong with what you say but in case I got you wrong. You see this movie as a messure of applying pressure? He but Islam and muslims on the same level as religious fanatics (which means he portrays them as a serious threat to people!!)... that's not applying pressure that's insulting with which he will most certainly have driven many more into the arms of the fanatics.
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I might convert to Islam.
I feel alot safer
Unfortunately you actually have a point there...
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bixie
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posted April 02, 2008 02:54 PM |
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just ignore Wilder, the man is obviously a nutcase conspiracy theorist who doesn't know when to stop being a fool.
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Lexxan
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posted April 02, 2008 03:05 PM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 15:07, 02 Apr 2008.
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Better Idea: make religions obselete: saves all us from Jihads, Crusades and WTC-like cases.
Btw, I agree with Mystical and Agazal
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted April 02, 2008 03:19 PM |
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Quote:
Better Idea: make religions obselete: saves all us from Jihads, Crusades and WTC-like cases.
Imagine there's no heaven..... 
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baklava
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posted April 02, 2008 06:34 PM |
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Well, I do have a rather neutral stance about Muslims, so I didn't want to get too deep in this one (nor the entire Jewish-Arabian conflict).
But I'll agree with Azagal here. If anything, I know a bit about how it is to be represented in bad light as a whole people, so I can understand fully how irritating that can be.
On the other hand, Muslims didn't have an Age of Enlightenment because, in my opinion, they were more advanced in many areas than most Europeans in the middle ages. Mathematics, astronomy, and many other areas (not to mention baklavas  ) were far more advanced in Arabic realms, and they didn't really have something as bad as official inquisition or anything.
The problem is, now, after a dozen of centuries, they have become rather, shall we say, outdated on certain views and policies - and Western policies toward them aren't really helping change that either. Of course, they shouldn't be regarded the way the guy who made this movie regards them. They should be cooperated with, and their policies influenced with some western ideas instead of bombs and grenades.
A sort of a helping hand toward a late Age of Enlightenment.
Certainly not hate-speech, generalizing movies about all of them being barbarians. I mean, ancient Romans were powerful, yes, but called everyone else barbaric, and look where that attitude lead them.
The movie itself, though, does show interesting photo and video material which shouldn't pass unnoticed. It shows where fanaticism leads to, and one can learn a few things from it if watching it from the right angle.
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Homam
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posted April 03, 2008 01:41 AM |
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Well speaking about "truth" as it mentioned i would like to show you thistalmud
The Jewish Supremacism. The Jewish "intelligence". These are facts written not from me but from some jews. I want to hear your opinions about what jews have done because jews are not the victims as they want the world to believe.Why we speak about the holocaust and we think only the jews?Where are the roma?Where are the homosexuals?They suffered from nazis aswell.I respect their genocide but i can't respect or recognize the palestinian genocide?? Even on the news we hear a palestinian terrorist killed 4 israelites for a week.Israelites killed 140 people,innocent women and kids in 2 days and we hear it like we hear the weather cast.Maybe because Jews control the press like everything.
There are many blatant expressions in their precious Old Testament of ethnic supremacism.
-Israelites are a “chosen people,” chosen by God above all the other peoples of the world
-Israelites have a right to rule over all other people and are promised that they will someday own and rule over the whole world
-Israelites boast of genocide against whole peoples and kingdoms
-Israelites are commanded to murder all the people of the lands where they intend to live and to kill all the people of foreign nations that do not submit themselves in slavery
-Israelites are forbidden to make slaves of their own people, but are encouraged to enslave non-Israelites whom they may pass down as slaves to their descendants forever
-Israelites are forbidden to intermarry or “mix their seed” with other peoples
I 'm a christian in Europe.I don't concern about muslims.But i do concern and afraid of Jews and Israel.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted April 03, 2008 08:22 AM |
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 03, 2008 03:58 PM |
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@HoMaM
It's true the Jewish religion has many flaws... huge flaws. But then again so does every religion. However, unlike some other religions I don't remember hearing of any Jewish attempts to force their religion on others or try to rule the world. In fact the only truly aggressive move I remember was the conquest of the land of Israel after the Israelites got free from the Egyptian slavery. True, that was a eral slaughter, but their only intention was to find a place to live.
Moreover, I don't remember hearing about a rabbie (sp?) publicly calling for war, genocide or anything of the sort. Why? Because the Jews know that the Tora and the Talmud are worthless in the hands of an ignorant man and should be clarified by wise man to show their "true" meaning. Now, I'm not such a man, but I can give an example I have heard before:
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-Israelites are a “chosen people,” chosen by God above all the other peoples of the world
That sentence doesn't mean that the Jews should rule the other peoples of the world, but that they should be an example of good and moral life.
@TA
That's not funny, that's just sad... and disturbing.
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