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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Worst upgrade in Heroes III
Thread: Worst upgrade in Heroes III This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · NEXT»
Gurnisson
Gurnisson


Known Hero
posted April 21, 2008 03:26 PM

Worst upgrade in Heroes III

Yeah, which upgrade is the worst in the whole game? Which unit will you only upgrade if you have a massive amount of money?

Make a list

1) Cyclops King
2) Pit Lord
3) Obsidian Gargoyles
4) Scorpicores

Cyclop Kings - 2 attack, 1 defense, 2 speed, some shots and better ballistics. Well.. it's a very good statistical, but it's not worth 350 gold. Upgrade only if you're filthy rich or wan't to smash some walls, attacking a town.

Pit Lords - 200 gold for 1 speed and the "Raise Demon"-ability. Is it worth it? Most of the time you don't need to raise demon, and 200 gold are much when you only get one speed in addition.

Obsidian Gargoyles - 1 attack, 1 defense and a couple of speed for 30 gold. It's expensive and not worth it. Only upgrade if you are rich or need those speed to get the computer on those mines.

Scorpicore - 1 attack, 1 defense, paralyze and a couple of speed. It's not the worst but it's not a very important upgrade. Don't upgrade if you are poor.

Which upgrade do you think is worst?

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Feenor
Feenor


Known Hero
posted April 21, 2008 03:28 PM

worst

Magogs - fireball

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hobowu
hobowu


Known Hero
posted April 21, 2008 03:32 PM

yes. magog

@gurnisson: obsidian gargoyle's extra speed is a VERY reason for upgrading. You can reach enemies in 1 turn if hasted.

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Gurnisson
Gurnisson


Known Hero
posted April 21, 2008 03:36 PM
Edited by Gurnisson at 15:47, 21 Apr 2008.

The Magog upgrade is also pretty lame, and I don't use to upgrade them

i don't use gargoyles in my main army so..
Gargoyles are pretty lame, I usually keeps 1-2 free rooms in my army for splitting or for joining units and I turn down them and Gremlins/Golems when I am tower.

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted April 21, 2008 03:47 PM

Gurnisson, you are very wrong about Pit Lords and Scorpicores.

Pit Lords are in contention for BEST upgrade. Demon farming allows you not only to farm demons, but to fight without losses. You sacrifice 10-15 demons in heavy battle and in the end you rise it again. So - no losses.

Scorpicores gives you 4 speed, wich is a lot. Plus the special abbilitie can turn game decider.

For me some of the worst upgrades are obviously most of the level 1 troops. Only 1 speed and few stats for pikes, gnolls, troglodites is not that much essential.

Medusas and monks are not very esential upgrade aslwell.

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Gurnisson
Gurnisson


Known Hero
posted April 21, 2008 03:56 PM
Edited by Gurnisson at 15:57, 21 Apr 2008.

liophy: Scorpicores are not the worst, but it's not especially good. Pit Lords is a lame upgrade which only helps sometimes, that's because the Pit Lords are victims. Pit Lords are often the stack that are attacked first which will end with you only have a few of them to raise up demons. For the upgrade will not make them to live longer?
And as said before, it's costly when they die even faster then theire non-upgraded comrades.

Gnolls have a lame upgrade, I had forgotten about them.

Medusa, a lame upgrade? You need more then four shots, and you even get 5 health + 1 attack and 1 defense for 30 gold! It's one of the best upgrades!
Monks have a good upgrade. 3 defense, no meele penalty and 2 speed are pretty nice for 50 gold.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted April 21, 2008 05:05 PM

Quote:
liophy: Scorpicores are not the worst, but it's not especially good. Pit Lords is a lame upgrade which only helps sometimes, that's because the Pit Lords are victims. Pit Lords are often the stack that are attacked first which will end with you only have a few of them to raise up demons. For the upgrade will not make them to live longer?
And as said before, it's costly when they die even faster then theire non-upgraded comrades.
Gurnisson...you have much to learn about this game
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Gurnisson
Gurnisson


Known Hero
posted April 21, 2008 05:25 PM
Edited by Gurnisson at 17:26, 21 Apr 2008.

I have years of experience and I know enough to kick ass of they I fight against
The Pit Lords' special ability is good sometimes, but if you need to save money, you will drop this upgrade
200 gold is much for that ability if you are poor as hell.
I would rather take 35 Pit Fiends than 25 Pit Lords if I wanted to go out with a Hero, for beating up monstrers, though the 1 speed is pretty nice
In big matches or for defending towns you may use some money on Pit Lords but when beating random monsters and average armies, the pit fiends are just as good(Not counting the extra speed).
When you fight that kind of games you wont loose stacks just a average number of your stack which makes the "Summon Deamon"-ability even worse later when you finally loose a stack.

And if i were going to have a fight in the beginning when the finances are pretty lame, I would rather pick 7 Pit Fiends than 5 Pit Lords, if you catch my drift?

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Ecoris
Ecoris


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 21, 2008 06:03 PM
Edited by Ecoris at 18:04, 21 Apr 2008.

Demon raising is a very powerful ability.
Quote:
I would rather take 35 Pit Fiends than 25 Pit Lords if I wanted to go out with a Hero, for beating up monstrers
Actually, this is when you want the Pit Lords; send your imps (or possible gogs or hell hounds) forward and let them fight and be killed, then raise them as demons. It is much better to have a very powerful stack of demons than a weaker stack of demons and a stack of imps.

This leads me to nominate demon -> horned demon as a "bad" upgrade since it can be inconvenient to transport your demons back and forth in order to upgrade them (and you don't want a stack of demons and a stack of horned demons in your army when you can have just one).

Edit: And welcome to Heroes Community.
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Gurnisson
Gurnisson


Known Hero
posted April 21, 2008 06:27 PM

I see your point and it's valid
It's sure better to have a stack of demons than a stack of imps.

I have som information about the "Raise Deamons"-ability from anther site.
"To raise 50 demons you will need 50 pit lords and a dead stack of about 70 hell hounds or 20 efreet or 440 imps. 50 Pit lords will cost 10000 gold to upgrade. 50 Demons cost 12500."

Let's see, I would rather buy 50 demons than 50 pit lords and gamble that I will get the chance to raise 50 demons.
And you have to buy 440 imps or something else which cost as much and use 10,000 to upgrade your Pit Fiends to get 50 demons.
440*50(All the imps)+10,000 for upgrading to Pit Lords= 32,000 gold!
That's a hell of a price for 50 demons when you can buy 50 demons for 12,500 in your town. You can of course slay other units but that means more army in the trash which means more money in the trash as well.
It's good for your finances to just stay with pit Fiends

I rest my case, don't upgrade unless you're rich and don't have other useful units to buy in your town.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted April 21, 2008 08:46 PM

Quote:
I have years of experience and I know enough to kick ass of they I fight against
Come to Gamespy and face a human opponent. Then maybe u will discover the usefullness of the pit lords
Quote:
The Pit Lords' special ability is good sometimes, but if you need to save money, you will drop this upgrade
There is no need to save money if they help ya to raise your army strength. And we are not talking about 50 demons....we are talking about 200 demons....week 4..
Quote:
200 gold is much for that ability if you are poor as hell.
You are not poor as hell, coz u will make big fights for money (utopias for example) without any losses, coz u use your demons as power stack and bait at same time....and later u raise them back. Utopias give 20k at least...enough.
Quote:
I would rather take 35 Pit Fiends than 25 Pit Lords if I wanted to go out with a Hero, for beating up monstrers, though the 1 speed is pretty nice
Let's see how u fight 100 dendroids with 35 pit fiends...and no losses. And then u try same with pitlords..
Quote:
In big matches or for defending towns you may use some money on Pit Lords but when beating random monsters and average armies, the pit fiends are just as good(Not counting the extra speed).
Pit fiends won't give u demons after the fight..and this is what counts in the end.
Quote:
When you fight that kind of games you wont loose stacks just a average number of your stack which makes the "Summon Deamon"-ability even worse later when you finally loose a stack.
With pit lords, you won't lose anything at all, except your bait (imps, gogs) which are not important in endfight, coz u will need their space in army for other troops (angels, wyverns etc...)

Quote:
And if i were going to have a fight in the beginning when the finances are pretty lame, I would rather pick 7 Pit Fiends than 5 Pit Lords, if you catch my drift?
You don't buy them fiends at all early, coz u fight with your efreets (2 or 5). You upgrade them pit fiends when uc an afford, then u start to raise demons.
Most of the imps are for free, coz u get them from external dwellings..

And your calculation isn't accurate. 1 pit lord raises 50 hp which is about 1.7 demons. 10 pit lords will raise 17 demons, 50 pit lords will raise 85 demons.
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Gurnisson
Gurnisson


Known Hero
posted April 21, 2008 09:03 PM

I have played against human players many times so don't come and think I just win against the computers

"There is no need to save money if they help ya to raise your army strength"

I would rather buy 3 demons than 1 pit lord, it will strengthen your army much more

Well, you only get money from the utopia once, and you don't have that in all maps, and even if it is on the map, it may be nearer anoter dude
Saving money from not upgrading the Pit Fiends to Lords may give you several Arch Angels which is more crucial at the end of the game.

But when do you attack 100 dendroids with 35 pit fiends? It never happens so I'll have to tell you that it was a lame argument, though I get your point.

Demons are not the most important at the end, the money you save from buying the pit lords are the crucial. More money for the expensive, but fantastic Arch Angels. Of course, demon helps also, but you need the money to buy those annoying expensive pit lords.

In average fights you may loose other things than imps and gogs, but it would be nice to have a few Pit Lords if they erase a whole stack, though you need the money. The enemy wouldn't erase a stack without taking several of your Pit Lords, if you don't play against the computer.

"10 pit lords will raise 17 demons, 50 pit lords will raise 85 demons"

If I aint mistaken, Pit Lords don't raise more demons then there are Pit Lords in your stack?

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Ecoris
Ecoris


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 21, 2008 09:15 PM
Edited by Ecoris at 21:16, 21 Apr 2008.

Quote:
If I aint mistaken, Pit Lords don't raise more demons then there are Pit Lords in your stack?
You are mistaken. They raise 50 hp worth of demons each, about 1.4 demons. Every 35 imps become 4 demons if you have 2.8 pit lords for every 35 imps.
Also, money is not what limits how many troops you can get; weekly growth is. You will buy the demons and the pit lords and farm the imps (and gogs).
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Gurnisson
Gurnisson


Known Hero
posted April 21, 2008 10:26 PM

Hmm, that makes the speciality a bit better I guess

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted April 21, 2008 10:38 PM

Quote:
I have played against human players many times so don't come and think I just win against the computers
But the way u judge those units like the pit lords shows, you didn't face strong human opponents

Quote:
Well, you only get money from the utopia once, and you don't have that in all maps, and even if it is on the map, it may be nearer anoter dude
Nagabanks, medusa stores, crypts etc....

Quote:
But when do you attack 100 dendroids with 35 pit fiends? It never happens so I'll have to tell you that it was a lame argument, though I get your point.
Sorry, but this made me laugh You really didn't had a tough game yet. In online games, you could face 100 dendroids week 2 Not sure what maps u play if u talk about 35 or even 50 pit lords, but never fight 100 dendroids at that time..

Quote:
Demons are not the most important at the end, the money you save from buying the pit lords are the crucial. More money for the expensive, but fantastic Arch Angels. Of course, demon helps also, but you need the money to buy those annoying expensive pit lords.
Let's see who will deal more damage...6 Archangels or 200 demons..

Quote:
In average fights you may loose other things than imps and gogs, but it would be nice to have a few Pit Lords if they erase a whole stack, though you need the money.
Again you are wrong here. If u lose anything else but imps and gogs in 95% of all fights vs the map, you need to sharpen your battle skills..

Quote:
The enemy wouldn't erase a stack without taking several of your Pit Lords, if you don't play against the computer.
The pit lords may seem a bit "useless" in endfight vs human, but the game is played about 85% vs the map / neutral creatures....not vs a hero. And those fights vs neutral creatures is were the usefullness of pit lords comes up.

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Gurnisson
Gurnisson


Known Hero
posted April 21, 2008 10:58 PM

I don't know what kind of maps you play, but in the maps I play there aren't gold that can last forever. It's not utopias, cyclop stockpiles and naga banks all over the place and to own more than one gold mine is not usual. That means to win to game you need to save money some places, and that means in my opinion, drop the Pit Lords.

And I have played against good opponents, so don't give me that

"you could face 100 dendroids week 2"
Well, I prefer the XL maps where you have some time to establish yourself before you attack/defend. I don't mean a lot of time, just a little so you can get started. And, btw. 100 dendroid guards in an enemy army in week 2? What the hell, which maps are you playing?

6 Arch Angels and 200 Demons? If you have raised over 200 demons it must be endless acces to nooby heroes or random monsters. I guess that's what you are playing against, nooby heroes?
I would enjoy play against you sometimes I'm not saying this because I "know" that I will win, I will fight against those challenges you and others like you are supposed(?) to bring.

"Again you are wrong here. If u lose anything else but imps and gogs in 95% of all fights vs the map, you need to sharpen your battle skills.."

I didn't only say fight vs. the map, did I? I said average fights, that means also against average heroes with average army(Like your own)
Here you will loose other units than Gogs and imps, if its not just a nooby player who are afraid of the shooter and aims constantly at the gog

Like I said, I'm using them if I have the money, I know they can be a bit useful if you can afford them.


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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted April 21, 2008 11:50 PM
Edited by angelito at 23:51, 21 Apr 2008.

Quote:
I don't know what kind of maps you play, but in the maps I play there aren't gold that can last forever. It's not utopias, cyclop stockpiles and naga banks all over the place and to own more than one gold mine is not usual. That means to win to game you need to save money some places, and that means in my opinion, drop the Pit Lords.
How much money do u need? A full naga bank gives 16k, a full store 10k, a full crypt 5k. A trading post gives u a good ratio for selling non-needed resources for good money. And so on.....

Quote:
"you could face 100 dendroids week 2"
Well, I prefer the XL maps where you have some time to establish yourself before you attack/defend. I don't mean a lot of time, just a little so you can get started. And, btw. 100 dendroid guards in an enemy army in week 2? What the hell, which maps are you playing?
You should read better. I did not say 100 dendroids in an opponents army week 2. I was talking about 100 dendroids on the map. They may guard an entrance to the next area, they may guard a relic artefact...whatever.

Quote:
6 Arch Angels and 200 Demons? If you have raised over 200 demons it must be endless acces to nooby heroes or random monsters. I guess that's what you are playing against, nooby heroes?
How long would you need to raise 200 demons? Online players will need between 4 and 6 weeks. XL map.

Quote:
I would enjoy play against you sometimes I'm not saying this because I "know" that I will win, I will fight against those challenges you and others like you are supposed(?) to bring.
As I said...come to gamespy and show your skills

Quote:
I didn't only say fight vs. the map, did I? I said average fights, that means also against average heroes with average army(Like your own)
Here you will loose other units than Gogs and imps, if its not just a nooby player who are afraid of the shooter and aims constantly at the gog
In online games, there isn't any computer player. You only play 1vs1, or 2vs2. So u don't have fights vs. "average heroes".

But judging by your picture in your other thread, you like to paly with diplomacy and fly. Those things are mostly restricted in online games. Things that can be done by 6 year old girls (collecting troops on the map with expert diplo, collecting arties with fly and dd) don't show skill. So expect some more challenging game styles..
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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted April 22, 2008 11:49 AM

Gurnisson - so you play only maps withour naga banks, dwarwen treasuries, medussa stores, utopias, relics, and so on?

You say - heavy big fights are not game decidin in your games? Only saving money?

If so, i would say that your games are not very demanding.

In every other case damon farming is essential. Angelito and ecoris already explained you about the farming.

And again i will tell you - if you play well, even if you dont have anything to convert to demons, you can sacraifice other demons to demons. So in the end - no losses.

And if the guards attack your Pit Lords first - you do something wrong. You must learn how to make your army like that, so the guards to attack the stack you want.

This can happen obviously by putting the victims infront. Or if the enemy can reach all your troops - it will attack the weackest stack. Thats providing the other stacks do big rettaliate.

So if you attack 100 golden dragons with 1 imp, 1 pit lord and 1 demon - obviously they will kill your  pit lord, becaus they will not suffer.

But if you attack 1 gold dragon with 100 imps, 100 pit lords and 100 demons - the gold will attack your imps.

BTW - Ecoris can give you more details about AI

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted April 22, 2008 11:52 AM

Quote:
How much money do u need? A full naga bank gives 16k, a full store 10k, a full crypt 5k.


Huh, am i missing something? I think on my version full bank gives 12 000 and full store gives 5 000.

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Gurnisson
Gurnisson


Known Hero
posted April 22, 2008 12:11 PM

Quote:
Gurnisson - so you play only maps withour naga banks, dwarwen treasuries, medussa stores, utopias, relics, and so on?


Not all over the place, but there are pretty many spread out over a whole XL-map in over- and underworld.

Quote:
You say - heavy big fights are not game decidin in your games? Only saving money?


What do you mean with heavy and big fights?


Quote:
And if the guards attack your Pit Lords first - you do something wrong. You must learn how to make your army like that, so the guards to attack the stack you want.


A smart player will not kill a stack before taking down a lot of those Pit Lords.


Quote:
But if you attack 1 gold dragon with 100 imps, 100 pit lords and 100 demons - the gold will attack your imps.


Yeah, I know. But that is only against the computer and against them it can be useful with raising demons.

Quote:
But judging by your picture in your other thread, you like to paly with diplomacy and fly.


That doesn't happen often, I allmost never flies
I just fought a throng of Azure Dragons or so for the Angel Wings so I could win the map a little bit faster
And, Diplomacy, I choose it in XL-maps. It's allways nice with diplomacy. To use fly is only boring, but i grew tired in the game I took the Screenshot from.

If you have diplomacy you buy the Lords

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