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zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted June 30, 2008 11:50 PM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 05 Jul 2008. |
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Poll Question:
Races vs. Themes
I'm making this poll because I want to see how many people actually prefer race-based castles to themed castles. In other words Do you want to see the creatures in heroes 6 be more like the heroes 3 creatures or heroes 5.
To Clarify:
When I say themed it can refer to Terrain based, climate based, mythology based, alignment based, ect.. When I say alignment based I mean based on the H4 model Light - Nature - Chaos - Death - Order - Light, with might in the middle and plenty of room for castles in and around this model.
When I say race-based I mean One with more than two of the same creature in the castle. Two is fine, if they are much different creatures. For instance, In Sylvan druids and hunters are perfectly fine, but the wind dancer? There is no need for such a creature there are plenty of other woodland creatures out there.
Haven doesn't count. Humans are not mythical creatures. The castle has a theme, it is holy/medieval.
There are two choices. I wanna see lots of votes.
Moderator's note: QP applied for a good thread which kicked some life back into this forum. Also, solid contribution throughout thread.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted July 01, 2008 03:54 AM |
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Race AND theme based. Eg, Demons, Necro, and Academy are themes (Demonic, Undead, Magic based) and others are race based: Sylvan, Fortress, Dungeon (Elves, Dwarves, Elves)
I think that races are fine. For numbers, 2 to 3 is good, 4 is okay, especially if one is like on a mount or mutated or only that race because the story says so, you wouldn't think of it like that usually. (eg, Bear Rider, Medusa as an acursed Naga, or Centaur) 5 is too many, with the exception of Haven which has to be like that.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 01, 2008 05:52 AM |
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Problem is, dwarves can be seen as both, ie, they're race based apparently, but also theme based, with that theme being nordic mythology, which kind of breaks your poll.
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zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 01, 2008 08:34 AM |
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Quote:
Problem is, dwarves can be seen as both, ie, they're race based apparently, but also theme based, with that theme being nordic mythology, which kind of breaks your poll.
Uh... Not really Matt. If there was a castle based on norse mythology it would have Dwarves, Elves, Giants, Gullinbursti, Kraken, Half-elves, Valkerie, Trolls, Fenrir, Nidhogg, Raven ect.
NOT dwarf, dwarf, dwarf, dwarf, dwarf, dwarf,fire lizard. So, no I wouldn't say it breaks my polls. The dwarf castle is a perfect example of a race-based castle. The only way it could be more race-based is if the level 7 was an even bigger dwarf that breathed fire.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 01, 2008 08:41 AM |
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Quote:
Problem is, dwarves can be seen as both, ie, they're race based apparently, but also theme based, with that theme being nordic mythology, which kind of breaks your poll.
I think this pretty much sums it up: In order to make a good town, you need to have both a "race" and a theme. And with race, I mean either a humanoid race (Human, Dwarf, Elf, etc.) or what you could call a creature type (i.e. Undead, Demon, etc.). I think that so far, we can pretty much all agree.
The tricky part comes when we're talking towns like the classic Heroes 3 "swamp" Fortress. For me, a town with (only) beasts don't make much sense. Beasts don't make societies, so they don't make likely candidates to form a faction to unite against other factions. That's one of the characteristic traits of Humanoids: The tendency to form communities. Hence, I think each town needs some sort of uniting race around which the society is build, and very convenient, this will also be the race of the Hero.
Thus, a Swamp town works fine for me, if we take something like "the Lizardman" to constitute the uniting race. One can then decide how much emphasize to put on this creature in the line-up: I think having it *only* as a level 2 ranged unit is a bit underwhelming, but on the other hand, one don't need to have much more than two creatures to give them impression, obviously, that also depends a lot on the lore created around the faction.
I think an even trickier "borderline" phenomena are the insects (bee/wasp hives, ant hills, etc.). These creatures do perform societies, and thus could be said to make a faction. However, for me, the idea of a swamp of wasps or ants taking on the Human (or Undead!) empire for world domination just seems ... unlikely. Of course, were we talking giant sized, super-intelligent waspoids, there is potention - whether it would make a good race is subject to personal oppinion.
What for me is a deffinite no-no is grouping together humanoid races that historically (with this, I mean in classical mythology) have nothing to do with each other. The best example is probably Heroes 3 Rampart with Dwarves and Elves in one town. Come on, Dwarves and Elves!? Since when did Dwarves and Elves ever form a harmonous alliance? A little better faires some of the "enslaved" races: Minotaurs with Dark Elves is still dubious, whereas the "fodder races" (Gremlins with Wizards, Goblins with Orcs, even Gnolls with Lizardmen - typically, we're talking level 1 units here) go down easier, and are by now a pretty established feature of the game.
And no doubt, you can come a far way with lore, but there are limits. For instance, one should be aware of the danger of going too far in the other direction: The concept of Giant Dwarves in the Dwarf faction (aka. Thanes) rank among the worst in-game concepts ever. If you want a Giant, call it Giant, please. And even though I do like the idea of Dwarves being very solicious, 6 Dwarven units was probably taking it just one step too far - at least, when the units are not better realized than they were in the case of speaking (Thane was obviously the worst, but the Dwarf mounted on a bear hits the mark just short of ridiculous).
That's my 5 cents (and maybe a bit more  ) worth. Voted races, btw, because with a "race", a theme comes pretty naturally, whereas you can have a theme without a "race", which for me should be avoided.
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What will happen now?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 01, 2008 12:10 PM |
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I think the major problem with the dwarves was that they weren't that well thought out, more slapped-together than properly arranged. I mean, you could swap the Brawlers down to level 2, moving Skirmishers and bear riders up a space, drop the riders, bears can do enough damage by themselves, and since, as alcibiades points out, Thanes are basically giants anyway, so giants could feature a bit more. I also note a lack of axes, which is weird because the vikings were some of the biggest axe-wielders. There's also a lack of real middle-range infantry, which is also odd, because housecarls would fill the void well.
I'm prepared to accept maybe one or two towns lacking a base race, because I personally feel the H3 Dungeon was pretty good.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted July 01, 2008 02:01 PM |
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And not much in the way of a simple hammer.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 01, 2008 02:41 PM |
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Race based for me.
I mean, I like Dungeon with Minotaur slaves and Hydras, but I would like it even more with more Dark Elves (and so for the other factions)
In Spellforce 1 I LOVED the fact that there were no "beasts" in a faction (except the Titan), but then in Spellforce 2 they made one single faction with Humans, Elves and Dwarves (instead of 3)
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 01, 2008 02:45 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 14:45, 01 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
In Spellforce 1 I LOVED the fact that there were no "beasts" in a faction (except the Titan), but then in Spellforce 2 they made one single faction with Humans, Elves and Dwarves (instead of 3)
In the expansion you had, for example, "boars" for Orcs, and "dogs" for humans, etc..
even though of course, it still had like 90% race based ( )-- and besides, boars with Orcs make perfect sense (they train them brutally, etc, even have a story), for the others it's the same.
not like totally random soup of creatures just because they are "cool" 
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 01, 2008 03:19 PM |
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Quote:
In the expansion you had, for example, "boars" for Orcs, and "dogs" for humans, etc..
Oh yeah, I forgot that
But still it had 90% Orcs, 10% other creatures (not 10% Orcs, 90% other creatures)
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted July 01, 2008 03:47 PM |
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I personally see it differently. The Faction is Race Based (With Heroes), while the creatures are Theme based. The question schouldn't be OR, itshould have been AND/OR.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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red_sparrow
Hired Hero
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posted July 01, 2008 05:18 PM |
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i'd like to see the next heroes take a leaf from heroes 3, 4 and 5... and what i mean by that is to have a racial AND town themes in each castle...you would have a choice between 2 racial creatures per each tier (for ex. in the dungeon a dark elf or a beast), and when you built one you couldnt build the other (like in 4)...all that compiled with the new alternate upgrades would make for a pretty dynamic game imo
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zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 01, 2008 05:40 PM |
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Edited by zazu1 at 19:32, 01 Jul 2008.
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Whoa this topic has really taken off!
Well it looks like for alot of people they like how heroes 5 is pre-expansions. For the most part it looks like people would rather see a town dominated by one race but with a few creatures. Yea, yea I guess I shulda made that another option, but I actually thought people were one way or the other.
Anyway, I have to say alcibiades does make a lot of points and kind of sums up what this debate is about. I do agree with some of the things he says but for me I don't really care much if a castle has a dominate race in it. I do agree that I do like to see hummanoids and not pure beasts, but not necessarily the same hummanoids. And maybe they would have to be about a level 2 and a level 5. But then again I think fortress in heroes 3 is fine and if you keep that same pattern it gets repetitive. Anyway, I do like castles with maybe 2 of the same race to make the castle look like a stable society but no more. Three is really pushing it. Might be acceptable if the castle had 8 levels of creatures, like an archer, caster and a mounted one. Well it looks like im loosing this poll, which I guess is surprising to me. I hope the tables turn.
Edit: I have a feeling that if I made this post on the ubi forums it would be leaning my way. Even though those forums don't seem as active I think the people that post there think more like me.
Edit2: I also wonder, for the people who agree that H5's dwarf castle went to far, why is it only that you complain about thanes. Sure, they are ridiculous and maybe should have been giants. But still, I wouldn't play them. There are still 5 more dwarfs that can be picked on. Personally, if I were going to redo this castle I would get rid of all of the creatures except the defenders and the rune priests. And rename the defenders dwarfs. Well I would also change the theme of the castle to a snowy, mountainous castle. Dwarfs are a brutal race that embraces the cold. They do not worship fire, because they all huddle around it in order to stay warm and roast marshmellows. Most of you have seen my line-up , I hope, so Im not gonna go anymore into that. I just don't see why people dont have a problem with spear wielders, or bezerkers. There all dwarfs! A spear wielder isn't a creature, all that tells me is it's a guy who has a spear. When I see people that say they want a naga race or a centaur race this is the line-up I'm picturing, might be with a slight exaggeration but probably close to what those people were thinking:
1) Centaur Defender - Centaur Shieldgaurd
2) Centaur Spearwielder - Centaur Skirmisher
3) Centaur Warrior - Centaur Mauler
4) Centaur Brawler - Centaur Berserker
5) Centaur Slayer - Centaur Executioner
6) Centaur Priest - Centaur Patriarch
7) Centaur Warmonger - Centaur Chieftan
ect....
1) Naga Defender - Naga Shieldgaurd
2) Naga Spearwielder - Naga Skirmisher
3) Naga Warrior - Naga Mauler
4) Naga Brawler - Naga Berserker
5) Naga Slayer - Naga Executioner
6) Naga Priest - Naga Patriarch
7) Naga Warmonger - Naga Chieftan
ect....
You get the picture. I could make a million of them And that took 10 seconds. You see it's pretty easy to make a castle like that.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 01, 2008 06:42 PM |
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Quote:
A spear wielder isn't a creature
I'm tired of "creatures". It is just... a little too childish...
I mean, do you see us humans, when we go to war, that we have only Riflemen as humans, and then a lot of animals like dogs, cats, etc etc? (tanks/air planes can't be considered because those are war machines)
NO, we have ONLY HUMANS and A LOT of types! We have Riflemen, Guys with Machineguns, Snipers, Artillery Guys, Spies, etc.
Quote:
You see it's pretty easy to make a castle like that.
And if it easy it means it's not ok?
Besides, you should have played Spellforce 1, here are some lineups:
Elf:
Elf Ranger
Elf Warder
Elf Windarcher
Elf Healer
Elf Druid
Elf Wintermage
Elf Wanderer
Elf Protector
Dark Elf:
Dark Elf Assassin
Dark Elf Darkblade
Dark Elf Battlemaster
Dark Elf Death Knight
Dark Elf Havoc
Dark Elf Sorcerer
Dark Elf Necromancer
Dark Elf Warlock
Orcs:
Orc Thug
Orc Spearman
Orc Fighter
Orc Veteran
Orc Totem
Orc Firemaster
Orc Drummer
Orc Hornblower
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zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 01, 2008 07:27 PM |
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............... Ok this is a game with mythical creatures. Creatures are not childish. And this is not Medal of Honor. Let me post this for you one more time.
Quote:
Haven doesn't count. Humans are not mythical creatures. The castle has a theme, it is holy/medieval.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 01, 2008 07:32 PM |
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Quote:
Creatures are not childish
I didn't mean to say creatures are childish... but random creatures forming a kingdom based only because they are all "dark" or something (a theme) doesn't make sense and is childish.
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zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 01, 2008 07:34 PM |
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Edited by zazu1 at 19:46, 01 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
random creatures forming a kingdom based only because they are all "dark" or something (a theme) doesn't make sense and is childish.
Well I disagree. Plus, that is exactly what the first four heroes were.
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triumph
Anti-race based town
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posted July 01, 2008 07:46 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Besides, you should have played Spellforce 1, here are some lineups:
Elf:
blahblahbalhblahblahblahblah
this isn't spellforce so don't talk about that game. Zazu obviously isn't a fan of race based systems so why the hell would he want to play that game? Personally, I like the idea of having a race to unify a castle, but dominating it just doesn't work. The results as we can see in the miserable fortress castle of H5 is a castle that isn't fun and seems to lack the uniqueness of the others. The fact that the castle was a fire pit in the snow was beyond me, not to mention their level 7 was a dragon that had nothing to do with the rest of the creatures. For those race proponents out there, please explain that one. I'm not trying to hate on the dwarfs, the castle could have been a dwarf castle, but the only dwarf units should have been the level 1 and the rune priest. The rest were uninteresting and bad units. I hate those units so much in fact that I uninstalled hammer of fate just so i dont have to see the stupid things guarding mines as neutral units. The h3 fortress castle i thought was too random. There should have been another lizardman creature as level 4 or 5 to give more structure. The idea that a bunch of monsters in the jungle were fighting as an army didnt make sense to me. Although the h5 dungeon castle is fun, making castles all race based just makes the game too bland. Going further to make castles wholly dark elf or wood elf makes creatures identical. How different could 7 wood elfs be from 7 night elfs? IMO theme-based castles gives more opportunity for variablity and uniqueness.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 01, 2008 07:50 PM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 05 Jul 2008. |
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Quote:
Well I disagree.
A town is a town, where creatures are social and agree, etc..
Do you see towns with different "sections" for different creatures? I mean, you don't see Ancient Egyptian Pyramids side-on-side with e.g: Babylonian Buildings! And even then those are simply different cultures, not races. Mixing different races in one town is way out of the normal way of things.
At best, you can have alliances between different creatures -- but not the same town. Especially when the creatures have no connection to each other -- you just invent some lame one to compensate.
Think of it like this. Since they are in a single town, they need to cooperate in every day -- day-to-day basis, you know.. stuff like that. That has to be realistic, not just mix them up in a random soup because that is "cool".
Every attempt to mix entirely different creatures in the same town because of "coolness" factor will result in an absolutely lame explanation of why they tie to each other.
Total random soup of creatures that all fit a general theme =
Oh, btw, and you said that it's easy to just 'name' the race-based towns? Go ahead, model them, make them realistic in terms of their strategic positions, not a lame one. Make it realistic in their descriptions, what each one's role is, etc... I'll be surprised if you manage to do that without a flaw
Mixed towns (theme-based) don't even have a culture, most times
@Triumph:Quote:
The results as we can see in the miserable fortress castle of H5 is a castle that isn't fun and seems to lack the uniqueness of the others.
Miserable?  Maybe in your opinion!
Even though I don't like dwarves that much, that town was great with 6 dwarf units (and I am not sarcastic/joking)
It also made the most sense. You make up towns which have no connection, no culture... don't even deserve to be called a 'town'.
Remember in real life how diverse only HUMANS are -- how many cultures we have, etc.. And you try to mix totally different creatures together but because you can't find a culture you don't even add one. Completely lame
Moderator's note: QP applied for overall contribution to thread, keeping it alive with many good points.
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted July 01, 2008 07:57 PM |
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Death, you just said what I've been wanting to say since I first saw this thread, I just couldn't find the right word...
The word is culture... thank you.
Cheers mate
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