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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 08, 2008 03:41 PM |
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Edited by Zazu1 at 15:44, 08 Jul 2008.
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Ok alc, you made a good argument. I guess the hard thing is for me is that what I want from heroes 6 is exactly what I said, (Heroes 3 design with heroes 5 game-play and other things thrown in there). There is a limit to the amount of themes a castle can have, but when you make a castle of a single creature your possibilities are basically endless. My Oasis town, for example, might be a bit of a stretch, I think is new and original. I kinda didn't really like the water creature idea, so I started to add a bit of a twist to it, and it ended up pretty different. I feel like if people can see what I picture in my head they would like it.
Anyway, you have inspired me to do something I don't think anyone has done. I will think of the racial/hero abilities of my Fortress, Bastion, Grove castles!
Edit: O yea, and about my upgrading creatures with experience bit. I don't see how I can go any in depth with that unless I actually specify how much experience it will take for them to reach there ultimate form.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 08, 2008 10:05 PM |
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Quote:
The originality isn't really an issue for me - it's the variety. I don't want to see buckets of say, Dwarves or Dark Elves in one town. Two or three is fine, there are no problems there, but when you put six of them together there's an obvious suggestion that either the developers were pressed for time (Heroes III Conflux), couldn't come up with any good mythologies to reference (no examples here), had a good, unique race to base things around (Demons?) or simply felt that animating so many Dwarves was easier than adding a few creatures with an actual basis in fantasy.
I simply don't think this is true. I can't see into the mind of the Nival people (and I'm certainly happy it is so!), but I'm convinced they chose this line-up very conciously. We may not agree with it, but I think that's what they wanted. And let's be real, finding a handful of suitable monsters to add to this faction is so easy that even the Nival people would have been able to do it, if they wanted. After all, swapping the Thane with a Thunderbird would be only a question of doing another model, and I simply don't believe that's what the issue was about - after all, they freely chose to gave us a complete extra set of upgrades with TotE, making a Thunderbird would not have been an issue in the big picture.
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What will happen now?
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 08, 2008 10:07 PM |
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Actually, coming up with a thane is something I found original/ at the very least funny. The idea of a giant midget... COME ON!
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted July 08, 2008 10:29 PM |
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Actually, I thought Thanes (as Dwarves) came from Warhammer (but I could be mistaken). Huge midgets lol 
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 08, 2008 11:47 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 23:58, 08 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
After all, swapping the Thane with a Thunderbird would be only a question of doing another model
As would the missing Yeti... 
In any case, why do you think Nival would have considered a Thunderbird of all things? In their Fortress mythology, the Dwarves are obsessed with fire, right? Thunderbirds have nothing to do with fire, or snowy mountains. If you add one here, you're breaking the theme. The Thunder Thane also becomes an odd one out.
Actually, in this regard, I think Nival were boxing themselves into a corner... I'd be hard-pressed to find many popular mythological creatures associated with both fire and snow. Not amazing design, creating a faction which worships one thing while dwelling in its elemental opposite.
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 09, 2008 12:20 AM |
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Edited by Zazu1 at 00:32, 09 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
Quote:
The originality isn't really an issue for me - it's the variety. I don't want to see buckets of say, Dwarves or Dark Elves in one town. Two or three is fine, there are no problems there, but when you put six of them together there's an obvious suggestion that either the developers were pressed for time (Heroes III Conflux), couldn't come up with any good mythologies to reference (no examples here), had a good, unique race to base things around (Demons?) or simply felt that animating so many Dwarves was easier than adding a few creatures with an actual basis in fantasy.
I simply don't think this is true. I can't see into the mind of the Nival people (and I'm certainly happy it is so!), but I'm convinced they chose this line-up very conciously. We may not agree with it, but I think that's what they wanted. And let's be real, finding a handful of suitable monsters to add to this faction is so easy that even the Nival people would have been able to do it, if they wanted. After all, swapping the Thane with a Thunderbird would be only a question of doing another model, and I simply don't believe that's what the issue was about - after all, they freely chose to gave us a complete extra set of upgrades with TotE, making a Thunderbird would not have been an issue in the big picture.
I thought the exact same thing Cepheus. Except I think 3 is really pushing it. When they released the dwarf line-up this is what I the the developers were thinking. "Well the game isn't particularly popular, and most of the fans have probably been fans of the series for a while, so what ever we dish out they'll buy." So, they were lazy about it, thus creating 6 dwarves.(My opinion of them)
And Alc, I don't really agree with what your saying. Although, like you said we have no idea what was actually going through their head, I would think making the alternative upgrades would definitely be easier to do then making 7 different models of different creatures. Essentially, all they did was recolor all of the creatures, along with changing their attributes.
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 09, 2008 12:30 AM |
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Edited by Zazu1 at 03:37, 09 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
Actually, in this regard, I think Nival were boxing themselves into a corner... I'd be hard-pressed to find many popular mythological creatures associated with both fire and snow. Not amazing design, creating a faction which worships one thing while dwelling in its elemental opposite.
And this is the is the second reason why I hate that castle so very much. The castle could have been the perfect opportunity for a snowy castle, but instead they said that the dwarves worship fire so they can cuddle for warmth and roast marshmallows. First of all, dwarves have always been a brutal race that embraces the cold. Second of all we all ready have an entire castle that is on fire!!!! It is in hell itself!!
This actually being said, brings me back to my last point that still no one seems to have a problem with. I asked for a reason why you must have more than 2 of the same race of creature in a castle if the story can back up that the humanoids in the castle(and fully conscience beasts) keep order. Especially since the line-up only consists of the army. One person responded and said that dwarves are a secluded race that keep to themselves. I respond and say well if the developers already changed dwarves to worshiping fire, why can't they say that they side with other creatures of there land to protect where they live.(that being snowy and mountainous of course) This being as you would call an "original idea".
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 09, 2008 07:13 AM |
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Quote:
And Alc, I don't really agree with what your saying. Although, like you said we have no idea what was actually going through their head, I would think making the alternative upgrades would definitely be easier to do then making 7 different models of different creatures. Essentially, all they did was recolor all of the creatures, along with changing their attributes.
I can only refer to the interviews that were made at the time. Fabrice (head of development) specifically said that they chose this line-up because they wanted the Dwarves to be different from the other factions in that they were very solitary and hence had only one foreign creature. He could be lying downright, but frankly, why should he?
And remember, that making, say, a Thunderbird would be no more or less work than making a Thane. It's not like they could use the model or the animation frame from the Defender to build the Thane, just because they are both Dwarves. So I don't think the argument that "it's less work" holds here.
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In any case, why do you think Nival would have considered a Thunderbird of all things? In their Fortress mythology, the Dwarves are obsessed with fire, right? Thunderbirds have nothing to do with fire, or snowy mountains. If you add one here, you're breaking the theme. The Thunder Thane also becomes an odd one out.
Actually, in this regard, I think Nival were boxing themselves into a corner... I'd be hard-pressed to find many popular mythological creatures associated with both fire and snow. Not amazing design, creating a faction which worships one thing while dwelling in its elemental opposite.
Not discussing in first place whether the thunder-thing was a good choice (I agree with you that it's not, but never mind), fact is that the very abilities we see on the original Thane (Flyer, Lightning Strike, Storm Bolt) is something you could put on a Thunderbird instead. Hence my point is, that the Thane is in fact just a Thunderbird put into the Dwarven skin. I know, then, that the later made the Warlord which relates more to the fire theme, but that was only in TotE. Notice they could even have made the alternative upgrade of Thunderbird a Firebird.
And though the fire/snow theme might seem like a challence, I don't think it would have been that much of a problem. Remember, that we only see the fire thing in the more mythological part of the creatures: The Priests (Keeper Of The Flame etc.) and the Dragons; post TotE also in the Thane. However, the other creatures are very much snow related, even down to the Mammoth the Rune Mages are riding. Yeti and Wolf obviously also were candidates for this faction, and some sort of Giant would also have fitted in smoothly.
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This actually being said, brings me back to my last point that still no one seems to have a problem with. I asked for a reason why you must have more than 2 of the same race of creature in a castle if the story can back up that the humanoids in the castle(and fully conscience beasts) keep order.
To answer this, I have to say: Why shouldn't we?
But let me elaborate (again). Look at the Haven line-up: In Haven, we see 5 Human units and 2 Magical Beasts. Does anybody ever complain about this? No. Why not? Because it's been so since Heroes 3 Heroes 1. My point is then: Why should Elven towns be different? Or why Dwarven? Isn't it reasonable to imagine, that the army of any sentinent creature is likely to develop something like:
- An infantry unit (Squire, Sword Dancer, Fury, Defender).
- An artillery unit (Archer, Hunter, Assassin, Spierwielder).
- A cavalry unit (Paladin, -, Grim Raider, Bear Rider).
- A mage unit (Priest, Druid, Matriarch, Rune Priest).
I don't see any reason why the other Humanoid factions should not do it. When we go beyond that, I think obviously one should think twice - whereas the Berzerker as such was a good concept, the giant flying dwarf obviously wasn't, but let's try to let that rest for a bit.
Point is that Heroes 5 takes its view on the races from another view-point than Heroes 3. Heroes 3 was about Humans vs. none-humans. Heroes 5 is about Humans vs. Elves vs. Dwarves. vs. Darkelves etc. You don't see any NEED for having these extra units, but for me, there IS such a need, because I don't believe that if these creatures live in societies as sofisticated, as developed, and as cultural as those of the humans, then they wouldn't have developed such units!
For me, a faction which has only one racial unit and a group of beasts comes across as culturally primitive. Which can be fine in some cases - I wouldn't be surprised if the Swamp Lizardmen were not the most cultivated in the world for instance - but if we pick this approach for all humanoid races, it simply flattens the mythology we're trying to create terribly.
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What will happen now?
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 09, 2008 07:48 AM |
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There is also the thing about just putting in creatures just for the sake of having them in there. For instance, you could have a whole town of beasts for both fire and ice (and a lot of other similar type of towns). They could have easily went the other way and not had a single humanoid.
Yeah it would have been nice for some variety, but there is a line. Factoring in the fact that there are thousands of mythological 'humanoid' creatures available to consider, variety is relitively easy to come accross. So like Alc said, they did what they did for a reason, I don't think it was because they were lazy.
Just go out and get any D&D monster manual book. You could fill out a dozen towns (each with 7 different creatures) without breaking a sweat (Idea wise). Change a few names, and presto.
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Message received.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 09, 2008 09:49 AM |
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One other thing I don't think has been mentioned here is the possibility of racial co-existance, eg, Dark Elves are long-living and intelligent, but have a low birth rate and are fairly brittle, so they use their intelligence and magic to outsmart and enslave a race of savage lizards, who provide them with tough, numerous infantry to fight the majority of their battles, with the elves themselves staying back as archers and mages. This provides us with 4-5 creatures in 2 races, lizard brutes, dark elf assassins, dark elf archers, elite lizard brutes, dark elf mages.
Wolves were mentioned as a possible addition to the Dwarven town, and bears are already in there, but what about boars, I mean, they come from the same area and are officially mythical (several different Norse Deities make use of them). Giants are also a possibility here, as had been mentioned before, as are all-round decent infantry (huskarls as an example from history), which are also sorely lacking.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 09, 2008 01:22 PM |
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In regards of Fortress, I haven't read all the posts yet (I will later and maybe edit this post), but I would like to comment on what I did see.
My impression on the Russian fantasy lovers (based on literature and video games) is that they're very conservative. Their understanding of fantasy is based very much on classic writers, mainly Tolkien. And all the classic fantasy stories I'v encountered stated one thing - Dwarves are a very secluded race of sturdy warriors who can very well take care of themselves in battle and see no reason to ally themselves with anyone else. In that sense making 6 dwarves and a dragon wasn't a lack of originality but simple logic.
The fire-snow theme, weird at first makes very much sense in that light as well. Dwarves are known to live under the mountains (snow) and are tied very strong with blacksmithing (fire), add to that the fact that they were chosen to be Arkath's race and you get a well explained theme that makes very much sense.
So whether or not you (or me) like what Nival did with Fortress, you can't balme them for being unoriginal/lazy/rushed etc. for making a faction that makes so much sense in so many ways.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted July 09, 2008 01:40 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 13:51, 09 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
And here are my two cents about the mythological creautres and the blood fury thing. It is much more interesting (in my opinion) for the creatures to actually have a basis in history. Obviously none of them exist anyway so it doesn't really matter, but its still nice to have a familiar term. By taking creatures from mythology, everyone has a familiarity with those creatures, people can know and recognize where they are from, what culture they are part of, and the stories surrounding those creatures. Although santa claus would be ridiculous, he would still be familiar (not that I'd want santa claus - he is NOT a mythical creature). My point is that 3DO could easily just make up random names such as "blood fury" or "snozgar" or "Ratchagatch-goo", but they are not familiar and thus not as interesting. That is why it is better for the game to include mytholocial creatures. I mean, would you play the game if all the creatures in it had some crazy made up name??
And this is where I COMPLETELY agree.
One great thing about Heroes 1, 2, and 3, was that they only used well-known creatures from mythology and general fantasy, they did not use weird new self-invented units or monsters. That was one major fun aspect of these games, you could easily recognize all the creatures.
If those games had featured variations of elves and dwarves, and a whole bunch of self-invented new monsters, I wouldn't have enjoyed the game as much. I strongly feel Heroes is a game that needs to stick with this tradition of NOT adding self-invented monsters. Sure, there is a degree to which the creators were creative with the looks, but the basic name and traits of the creatures were left quite intact.
Unicorns, Harpies, Hydras, Griffons, Minotaurs, Medusas, Phoenix, Dragons, Orcs, Trolls, Ogres, Goblins, Dwarves, Elves, Pixies, Angels, Devils, Rocs, Genies..... Say those names and everybody knows what you are talking about, and they are the creatures that made Heroes so fun...
Say "bloodfury" and nobody that hasn't played H5 knows what the heck you are talking about. Also, most of the fun abilities in the game come from units that naturally have such traits, a mythology that validates such abilities, such as the basilisk's petrifying gaze.... The reason BLOODFURIES have strike and return is because they were made after the fricking harpies! Sure you can make a story around everything, but it doesn't sit well.
( Mind you, Asheera, I don't complain about bloodfury looks ^^; ... )
But the point is just another main-race "unit" should never take the place of a suitable mythology unit.
It would be very, VERY boring if you would see at least 3 main race units in every single lineup. It's just BAH!
Quote:
Can you (theme-based fans) tell me why would you want the Bear Rider in H5 Fortress to be a Bear? As it is now, it already looks different to distinguish it from other units, it has the bear creature (since you want a lot of diverse creatures). What's the problem that a dwarf rides it?
Uhr, I wouldn't want a BEAR at all in Fortress.... Sure if there is a lack of any good mythology or fantasy creature, an animal could fill the spot, but in general, plain ANIMALS should be avoided unless they are mounts. But I've never been a fan of dwarves riding bears... Scrap that whole unit plx. So don't say Theme-fans all want that unit to be just a bear  not true.
Quote:
So whether or not you (or me) like what Nival did with Fortress, you can't balme them for being unoriginal/lazy/rushed etc. for making a faction that makes so much sense in so many ways.
But I CAN blame them for breaking with HEROES TRADITION in which dwarves were merely slow sturdy units with magic resistance. Haven't seen that back in the H5 Fortress.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 09, 2008 01:52 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 14:13, 09 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
Fabrice (head of development) specifically said that they chose this line-up because they wanted the Dwarves to be different from the other factions in that they were very solitary and hence had only one foreign creature. He could be lying downright, but frankly, why should he?
Really? Where is this review?
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They could have easily went the other way and not had a single humanoid.
Hold on a second there, nobody is interested in an all-beast town of Dwarves. Now that really would be pushing the logic barrier 
Quote:
that makes so much sense in so many ways.
Dwarves are a secluded race, that doesn't give an excuse to fill the whole town with them. In every mythology, including Nival's, Dwarves are not exactly well-known for reproduction. So how exactly do we come up with hundreds of individual Dwarven units more than, say, Orcs?
I mean, one could do the same thing with the Academy, since they're also a fairly secluded race who don't rely on outside influences. But how then do we end up with a town that isn't race-based at all?
And if these Dwarves happen to worship fire, the "usual theme" of mountain-dwelling in other game worlds doesn't really explain why these ones would choose to dwell primarily in snowy mountains - where fire is usually extinguished - rather than, say, tunnels beneath the earth like the Dark Elves.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 09, 2008 02:19 PM |
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Quote:
Say "bloodfury" and nobody that hasn't played H5 knows what the heck you are talking about. Also, most of the fun abilities in the game come from units that naturally have such traits, a mythology that validates such abilities, such as the basilisk's petrifying gaze.... The reason BLOODFURIES have strike and return is because they were made after the fricking harpies! Sure you can make a story around everything, but it doesn't sit well.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Furie are actually goddesses of revenge in the Greek Mythology. There you go. For your information, the Furies are also known as Harpies, depending on which sources you go to. See the connection?
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Really? Where is this review?
I can't point you to it from head. My memory tells me it's actually from one of the TotE development interviews where he talks about this (because the fan-base expresses concern for the new faction in the light of HoF experience), so you might look into the master post of the TotE thread in the Temple and browse through the linked interviews. Otherwise, try and check through the old AOH info pages for interviews with Fabrice, maybe you'll find a link there. It could also be from his development diaries.
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What will happen now?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 09, 2008 02:26 PM |
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Thanks Alc, I did not know that Nival actually made statements on it. Heck if I did I would probably not be arguing right now
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 09, 2008 02:34 PM |
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Quote:
One great thing about Heroes 1, 2, and 3, was that they only used well-known creatures from mythology and general fantasy, they did not use weird new self-invented units or monsters. That was one major fun aspect of these games, you could easily recognize all the creatures.
The problem here is that you wouldn't know in which town they were since it made basically no sense without knowing it by heart. So you know a harpy is a harpy, but why in the town Dungeon along with all the others? (this is only saying that your argument is weak and you still need to 'browse' through the game/story or whatever to make sense out of it)
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Brawlermatrix
Thinking Outside the Box
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posted July 09, 2008 03:39 PM |
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I would consider both, a "Race" and a "Theme" both can be considered in the development of a town concept;
For example;
Necropolis / Necromancers:
The classification is Undead / Necromancers / Spectral forms, skeletal and Demonic forms, and yes i know that in HoMM 5 the Undead and Demons where of different town lines but consider the games history and the art of necromancy itself.
This town type uses both, a "Race" (as for mentioned) and a "Theme" (Undead / Living Dead) and utilizes a verity of concepts to associate in its creation.
But for a ideal design yes you have to consider both race and theme, but what about the ethos the team itself? is it not also a important factor in any team development.
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Think outside the box and see
true potential, stay inside the
box and say the same.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted July 09, 2008 03:48 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
One great thing about Heroes 1, 2, and 3, was that they only used well-known creatures from mythology and general fantasy, they did not use weird new self-invented units or monsters. That was one major fun aspect of these games, you could easily recognize all the creatures.
The problem here is that you wouldn't know in which town they were since it made basically no sense without knowing it by heart. So you know a harpy is a harpy, but why in the town Dungeon along with all the others? (this is only saying that your argument is weak and you still need to 'browse' through the game/story or whatever to make sense out of it)
Don't bring in H5s weak: Lore.
Anyway there is another thingy, if you rigthclicked you got up in most cases what towns the creatures hailed from. And when picking units you could check the lineup too
What i really enjoyed about H3 was that it did not lack design variation: Nagas, Minotaurs, some giant ghost dragon, gorgons. It just had a variation that was really good.
I find H5 boring for 2 reasons:
*The design
*Tech tree
The tech tree is a major stopper in some cases, in H3 you could get what units you needed for 1st week creeping in week 1. In H5 it takes forever to get capitol and Tier 7.
I even remember in some maps the computer gets a massive army week 1, while i got a faction that does not have that.
[quoteQuote:
They could have easily went the other way and not had a single humanoid.
Hold on a second there, nobody is interested in an all-beast town of Dwarves. Now that really would be pushing the logic barrier
I fixed it a little bit, H5 fortress could easly have been a different town in all manners. Switching humanoid dwarfes with non humanoid beasts would have been a different town.
I think it would have been more interristing too, besides: Whoever said that beast cannot make societys are wrong.
Besides, why would people complain about someting they never knew?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 09, 2008 04:35 PM |
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Anyway there is another thingy, if you rigthclicked you got up in most cases what towns the creatures hailed from. And when picking units you could check the lineup too
This argument doesn't hold at all -- in H5 you can also right-click on units and see their names, thus you can't confuse the race-based units, so the argument goes out (A5Ado I think used it).
Quote:
What i really enjoyed about H3 was that it did not lack design variation: Nagas, Minotaurs, some giant ghost dragon, gorgons. It just had a variation that was really good.
I find H5 boring for 2 reasons:
*The design
*Tech tree
The tech tree is a major stopper in some cases, in H3 you could get what units you needed for 1st week creeping in week 1. In H5 it takes forever to get capitol and Tier 7.
I even remember in some maps the computer gets a massive army week 1, while i got a faction that does not have that.
This is a bit off-topic but, you truly think that rushing with tier 7s the first week is fun?? 
Quote:
I fixed it a little bit, H5 fortress could easly have been a different town in all manners. Switching humanoid dwarfes with non humanoid beasts would have been a different town.
Sorry but that doesn't add anything to the gameplay
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Besides, why would people complain about someting they never knew?
I never said that only humanoids can have culture. But what I don't like to see, even in the case of humanoids, is to see different types of humanoids together, or in the case of beast towns, different types of beasts together.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 09, 2008 05:41 PM |
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I completly DO NOT agree. Tech-trees/town levels makes the game much more balanced and better. Like TheDeath just said, do you really think its fun to have lvl 7s in the end of week one? -.-
In my opinon, race-based towns are better. There should be 3 of the main race and the rest monsters ( or another race creature with a mount).
For instance, the Fortress line-up is very boring and could be modified into this ( i made this in 10 seconds...) :
1. Wolf-Fenrir Worg/White Worg
2. Spearwielder-Harpooner/Skrimisher
3. Bear Rider-Whitebear Rider/Blackbear Rider
4. Yeti-Berserker Yeti/Brawling Yeti
5. Runepriest-Rune Keeper/Flame Watcher
6. Roc-Frostbird/Firebird
7. Fire Wyrm-Magma Wyrm/Lava Wyrm
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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