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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 10, 2008 01:45 AM |
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I guess I haven't made it clear exactly what castles I have a problem with. Also, what it means to be the same race. You can read A5ado's posts for a description of that. This is my review of all the castles and how many of the same race they have:
Haven(6) - You can call this an exception if you will, but I've already explained why I like the castle. We like it, you like it, nothing more has to be said.
Academy(o) - Nice themed castle. There are no repeats of creatures.
Sylvan(3) - I still like it, although it's not as good as rampart. Wind dancer(or whatever its called) has to go, there is no need for it.
Dungeon(4) - Definitely too many. I vote off the bloodfurys and the dark riders.
Inferno(0) - Nice themed castle. There are no repeats of creatures.
Necropolis(0) - Nice themed castle. There are no repeats of creatures.
Fortress(6) - Complete and utter joke.
Stronghold(3?) - Warrior or slayer has to replaced and the one remaining has to be called Orc.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 10, 2008 01:46 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 01:56, 10 Jul 2008.
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In my opinion all creatures in Inferno are of the race demons, I think they all are demons (with the expection of Hellhounds maybe). Just because humans all look the same doesnt mean other races in a distant universe needs to.
I have never found it hard to remember a creature or something like that 
And to the above post. Why should one creature in a town be called "Orc" when there are two other orc creatures + only orc heroes in the town?
My opinion:
Haven - I like it, its supposed to be like this. Its a classical town, no need to change.
Academy - Yes its a themed castle but since Academy has always been like this and the theme just fits to Wizards and makes sense. And if it makes sense its good.
Sylvan - I completly agree. The WInd Dancer is boring. Werewolfs please. Werewolfs could just be shapeshifting elves.
Dungeon - Blood Furies are hot but they should be replaced with Harpies and Witches with Medusas. They could be hybrid Dark Elves.
Inferno - This is a race based castle! In Ashan demons are a race!!! All creatures here ( except cerberus maybe ) are demons!
Its supposed to be like this.
Necropolis - I cant really say they are themed or a race castle, depends on how you think. You could say that Undead are a race or a very large group. In my opinion they are neither of these two. They are undead.
Fortress - Boring town. Gief Jötunn, Rocs, Trolls, Valkyries, Norns, Einherjar, Jormungduar, Lind Wyrms etc...
Stronghold - Fine. It has 3 Orcs, making it perfect.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 10, 2008 02:29 AM |
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Quote:
And to the above post. Why should one creature in a town be called "Orc" when there are two other orc creatures + only orc heroes in the town?
Well I said remove change one completely and make the other just an orc. And when I thought about the shaman, I am ok with it. I looks a bit a different sense its female or what ever. Well in my line up I had it a troll shaman but either would do I suppose. And the hero isn't a creature so I wouldn't say there are too many because of the hero. Infact, when there is a bit of a race town (having 2 of the same race), which I am perfectly fine with, I think it's appropriate to have the hero as the the same race.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 10, 2008 07:12 AM |
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Quote:
I guess I haven't made it clear exactly what castles I have a problem with. Also, what it means to be the same race. You can read A5ado's posts for a description of that. This is my review of all the castles and how many of the same race they have:
Haven(6) - You can call this an exception if you will, but I've already explained why I like the castle. We like it, you like it, nothing more has to be said.
Academy(o) - Nice themed castle. There are no repeats of creatures.
Sylvan(3) - I still like it, although it's not as good as rampart. Wind dancer(or whatever its called) has to go, there is no need for it.
Dungeon(4) - Definitely too many. I vote off the bloodfurys and the dark riders.
Inferno(0) - Nice themed castle. There are no repeats of creatures.
Necropolis(0) - Nice themed castle. There are no repeats of creatures.
Fortress(6) - Complete and utter joke.
Stronghold(3?) - Warrior or slayer has to replaced and the one remaining has to be called Orc.
Well, all I can say is, this proves what some of us has been trying to say for some time: We like the castles to be different, you want them all to be the same way, with exception of Haven. How that makes you call our approach boring and lacking imagination is beyond be, but oh well.
What I would like to repeat here is the fact that what you're calling for is a very extreme solution which favors only your taste. Like I said previously, Nival has actually quite diplomatic in the sense that they've made 4 castles for each "camp", and thus everybody should find something they like, albeit no-one perhaps will love it all. Personally, I think that's a fair compromise.
Obviously, you all have a very hard time accepting the Fortress, but hey, we can't all have every castle as our favorite time. Personally, I find Academy and Inferno to lack coherence, but I appreciate the fact that they chose different solutions for different castles, which means I like some better than others.
The other extreme to what you suggest here would be: Haven, Sylvan, Dungeon, Fortress and Stronghold all have 6 bace race units, and only one tier 7 monster. That would basically be the polar opposite of what you suggest, but you don't see any of use "racials" call for that, do you? All we say is that those castles that have one of the primary races in them should have an (unspecified) number of racial units in the army to reflect the refinement and diversification of their society. This still leaves room for variation (the number can be anything from 2 to 6 in my book), alternative (we can have theme-based castles also where appropriate (i.e. Necropolis, Inferno, Academy) and most important of all, uniqueness (all castles are not fitted into some strict frame, i.e. we need to find appropriate monsters to go in line-up).
EDIT > Oh, and one more thing. I would like to address this:
Quote:
There are no repeats of creatures.
What is this repeat of creatures you're talking about? You think a Paladin is a repeat of a Crosbowman, just because they're both Human? Or a Winddancer is a repeat of a Hunter, because they're both Elves? Right?
Well, to me, that doesn't make sense. If you ask me, if anything was ever a repeat, then the Grand Elf of Heroes 3 was a repeat of the Marksmen: They are both ranged units with double-shot. But that's not a problem, because one is Elf, and has long ears, whereas the other is Human, and has rounded ears, right?
Just a point to consider.
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What will happen now?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 10, 2008 02:03 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 14:21, 10 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
And TheDeath, that joke trogylite castle was not 'random' at all, it was the opposite. They were all trogylites, and that is exactly what the dwarf castle was: all the same creature with different names.
Yes it was 100% random, do you even read what I write? Race-based towns are MORE than a random line-up of the same creatures. How many times must I repeat myself? This is like the 4th time I'm doing it. Please read the following carefully.
When you have tamed beasts in a line-up, it's much easier to not connect them with the town -- you can simply say they are slaves or tamed and that's it.. But when the line-up is formed of creatures that take part in e.g: culture, you will have to come up with a lot more than just a listing of their names. For example, dwarves are known to not be very social to outsiders. You take this into account. You call it boring, whatever, but that's an argument for me, whether you like it or not.
When the line-up is formed of creatures that take part in the town's culture, you WILL have to come up with culture, social attributes, perhaps even reflect the philosophy of the town (Archers & Druids in Sylvan, and martial arts in Winddancers too!), and also the role or purpose of that in, not only the lineup, but also on the town's culture!!!
What you have done, a simple listing of all creatures, is not even close to what a good race-based town requires. That is more like a simple theme-based towns (troglodyte theme, that is!), because the lineup doesn't have to have a connection to culture and all the above.
Again, a race-based town doesn't necessarily have to be humanoids. Even in case of beasts forming the culture (no problem with that), you will still have to connect the lineup to all the above characteristics of a TRUE TOWN.
It's much easier to add a few bunch of mythological creatures and then use the "tamed" or "enslaved" excuse than to actually comprise a logical lineup where you have to connect it to the town's culture. (even in the case of beast towns, where beasts make the culture!).
Beast towns are ok. What is not ok, is when you have different types of humanoids together (elf-dwarf), or different types of beasts together.
PLEASE DO NOT MAKE ME REPEAT THIS AGAIN!!! READ THE ABOVE!!!!
sorry for the caps but I'm tired of repeating it the 4th time I guess.
Quote:
And how does knowing the name of a creature mean you know what castle its from? I know that Treants are from sylvan, but what about axe-weilder, brawler, killer, warrior, those names are general and could refer to anyone from any castle. The themes make it easier to figure out which castle the creature is from, AND which level it is.
Just to let you know, you were a noob at some point. When you first play the game you are a noob. If you memorize all the creatures, where they are from, and what level they are, then how complicated or confusing all the creatures are really doesn't affect you. The difference is how hard it is to memorize all the creatures. Frankly, the race-based approach makes it harder to memorize it all. Obviously you will respond by just saying I'm wrong, but I'd like to see how you refute my claim (not that I don't have a good Idea of what you're gonna say)
Let me explain this to you again. In Heroes 3, if I was a noob, I would never know that a harpy is from Dungeon -- why would it be? Just because it's foul? What if we had e.g 10 foul towns??? Where would it be? You could right-click, but remember that Nival could have made it similar too. Your argument doesn't hold
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 10, 2008 02:20 PM |
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Quote:
And how does knowing the name of a creature mean you know what castle its from? I know that Treants are from sylvan, but what about axe-weilder, brawler, killer, warrior, those names are general and could refer to anyone from any castle. The themes make it easier to figure out which castle the creature is from, AND which level it is.
I don't think so. How can you tell from a theme-based faction the level of the creature? By looking at its size? How can you tell that the Centaur is a level 2 creature? You can't unless you actually know the game!
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 10, 2008 02:51 PM |
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Quote:
One thing I will respond to is the inferno and necropolis race thing. You say they are good races because they are 'varied'. Since they are 'varied' THEY ARE NOT A RACE. Race means they are not varied, there is a big difference between 6 dwarfs and 6 demonic creatures. Demonic is a THEME, dwarf is a race.
This is where I disagree.
Demons are very, very clearly a RACE, just a far more varied one than Dwarves. Variation cannot prevent something from being a race. Dwarven can be a THEME too, you can have Gnomes and Halflings and short creatures coming out of your ears since they are attuned to the Dwarven RACE but it doesn't matter, there is a defining line between the THEME and the RACE. A creature using the Demonic THEME is the Nightmare, which is not part of the Demon RACE, but a unit attuned to it. A creature using the Orcish THEME is the Wyvern, which is not an Orc, but a unit attuned to them. Difference 
To spell it out:
Imp: Sentient, probably a Demon
Demon: Demon
Cerberus: Demonic-THEMEd unit
Succubus: Demon
Nightmare: Demonic-THEMEd unit
Pit Fiend: Demon
Devil: Counts as a Demon
There is a RACE here, which is the Demons, hence since there are more RACE-based units than THEME-based ones, Inferno is a RACE-based faction. And an ideal one at that. Just because there are no so-called "repeats of creatures" does not prevent the town from having a RACE.
Yeah sorry for the late reply here. Oh and no need for the block capitals, we can hear one another fine 
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 10, 2008 02:53 PM |
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Quote:
Yeah sorry for the late reply here. Oh and no need for the block capitals, we can hear one another fine
I wasn't addressing it to you 
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 10, 2008 02:56 PM |
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That was for A5Ado, you're too skilled a debater for me to dare tackling.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted July 10, 2008 03:02 PM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 15:02, 10 Jul 2008.
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<*throws n00b Sour Ram Testicle at Zazu1*>
<*run from the Hammer of Faith*>
Now iz okay. 
pwnt
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 10, 2008 03:03 PM |
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Hey, you'll confuse Zazu, he probably doesn't know what a SRT is
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 10, 2008 03:49 PM |
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Quote:
This is where I disagree.
Demons are very, very clearly a RACE, just a far more varied one than Dwarves. Variation cannot prevent something from being a race. Dwarven can be a THEME too, you can have Gnomes and Halflings and short creatures coming out of your ears since they are attuned to the Dwarven RACE but it doesn't matter, there is a defining line between the THEME and the RACE. A creature using the Demonic THEME is the Nightmare, which is not part of the Demon RACE, but a unit attuned to it. A creature using the Orcish THEME is the Wyvern, which is not an Orc, but a unit attuned to them. Difference
To spell it out:
Imp: Sentient, probably a Demon
Demon: Demon
Cerberus: Demonic-THEMEd unit
Succubus: Demon
Nightmare: Demonic-THEMEd unit
Pit Fiend: Demon
Devil: Counts as a Demon
There is a RACE here, which is the Demons, hence since there are more RACE-based units than THEME-based ones, Inferno is a RACE-based faction. And an ideal one at that. Just because there are no so-called "repeats of creatures" does not prevent the town from having a RACE.
Yeah sorry for the late reply here. Oh and no need for the block capitals, we can hear one another fine
Just to continue the nit-picking here, I have to point out that you're a bit mistaken here: Notice that all creatures in the Inferno line-up have the Demonic descriptor, which is what allows them to Gate to the Infernal plane and back.
In fact, Heroes 5 lore is particularly unspecific about the exact relations between the Infernal creatures, but the fact they all have the Demonic descriptor tells us it's probably more correct to group them as different speciae (or, races) within a larger Class, which includes both Demons per se, Demonoids (Imps etc.), Devils, Cerberi and Hell Horses, than it is to consider Demons as a single species (or race).
Same goes for Undead, btw.
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What will happen now?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 10, 2008 03:59 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 16:52, 10 Jul 2008.
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Alright, they each have a common classification. Surely you're not about to argue that a Cerberus counts as a sentient Demon. For all we know, they're just native to Sheogh rather than Ashan, and have to be "portaled" into the material world or whatever. What is your opinion on Orcs, then? All of them share the Blood Rage ability (apart from Wyverns), but this does not mean that every one of them is an Orc. The Cyclops was injected with demon blood at some point, but I wouldn't necessarily consider it a real part of the Orc race, since it falls more into the "beast" or "giant" category - you wouldn't consider an Ogre part of the Goblin race for example.
Nival have made it pretty obvious which units are beasts and which are not, and since Imps and Devils are traditionally known to be "demons" (plus Ashan's excuse for lore fails to contradict this), they're likely part of the same race too.
I mean, we could also make the assumption that Thanes are not part of the Dwarven race, or that Centaurs are not part of the Orc race, or that Pixies are part of the Wood Elven race, but we're not certain about this and none of it seems likely, so let's err on the side of caution 
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 10, 2008 07:11 PM |
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Ok, I still disagree with Inferno being the same the race, if they have variation I can't consider them to be the same. Especially, when I see you say this : Quote:
Imp: Sentient, probably a Demon
. I mean, If you actually have to think about this, that just proves my point. But, whatever, it looks like even the people on the theme-based side disagree with me so I theres no point in arguing. I think A5ado is the only one that agrees with me on that topic. But like Necro and Haven, we see it differently, but we all like them the way they are so why debate.
Quote:
The other extreme to what you suggest here would be: Haven, Sylvan, Dungeon, Fortress and Stronghold all have 6 bace race units, and only one tier 7 monster. That would basically be the polar opposite of what you suggest, but you don't see any of use "racials" call for that, do you? All we say is that those castles that have one of the primary races in them should have an (unspecified) number of racial units in the army to reflect the refinement and diversification of their society. This still leaves room for variation (the number can be anything from 2 to 6 in my book), alternative (we can have theme-based castles also where appropriate (i.e. Necropolis, Inferno, Academy) and most important of all, uniqueness (all castles are not fitted into some strict frame, i.e. we need to find appropriate monsters to go in line-up).
Well yes I think there were people that wanted more of the same race in the towns we have in H5. I think Asheera was one of them. I have started this whole debate because after what I saw in H5, I feel like they were going the wrong direction. And then when the dwarf castle came out, I guess I felt scared that they were going to continue with their pattern and make the whole next game as dull as the dwarf castle. And if you like having 2 race-based creatures in the castle, I think we have reached a compromise.
Quote:
EDIT > Oh, and one more thing. I would like to address this:
Quote:
There are no repeats of creatures.
What is this repeat of creatures you're talking about?
Some perfect examples of repeats are the Defender and the Brawler, and the Warrior and the Slayer.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 10, 2008 07:15 PM |
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First off, like I said, we ARE nit-picking now. But if we really want to go into details:
Quote:
What is your opinion on Orcs, then? All of them share the Blood Rage ability (apart from Wyverns), but this does not mean that every one of them is an Orc. The Cyclops was injected with demon blood at some point, but I wouldn't necessarily consider it a real part of the Orc race, since it falls more into the "beast" or "giant" category - you wouldn't consider an Ogre part of the Goblin race for example.
In contrary to the Demons, Nival ARE quite specific on the hows and what's when it comes to the Orcs. We know that Goblins, Centaurs, Orcs and Cyclops all share the Blood Rage ability because they have Demon blood in their veins. Notice, that the genetic history of these races telss us, they they are actually what we can call constructed races - I'd like to label them as Aberrations to give them a common Class name, although Aberrations traditionally cover something slightly different (a Beholder for instance, is an Aberration in common sense I think, i.e. none-animal-like monsters).
Thus, even though this is not stated quite as clearly, it gives us quite a very good impression of the different groups of Aberrations created by these experiments:
Goblins: Human + Imp blood.
> Gremlins: Magically altered Goblins.
Orcs: Human + Demon blood.
> Shamana: Orcs, specifically created with Succubi blood.
Cyclops: Human + Devil blood?
Centaur: Human + Hell Horse blood.
We're not told anything specific on the genetics of the Cyclops, other than they are "cousins of the Orcs in which the Demon blood runs strong", but judging on their size, the Devil theory is at hand.
On a sidenote, one should notice that the Gremlins, as they are created from the Goblins, actually belong in this group!
Notice also that the Wyvern clearly has nothing to do with these other creatures - it doesn't share the Blood Rage ability, and clearly, is simply a magical beast alligned with the Orcs.
Quote:
Nival have made it pretty obvious which units are beasts and which are not, and since Imps and Devils are traditionally known to be "demons" (plus Ashan's excuse for lore fails to contradict this), they're likely part of the same race too.
Yes, I more or less agree with this. In specific, Nival has completely failed on doing the classic distinction between Demons (Demonic, or Abysmal, creatures) and Devils (Diabolic, or Infernal, creatures) - everything is simply a mixed bag here, to the degree that the Devil actually upgrades into Arch Demon!
Quote:
I mean, we could also make the assumption that Thanes are not part of the Dwarven race, or that Centaurs are not part of the Orc race, or that Pixies are part of the Wood Elven race, but we're not certain about this and none of it seems likely, so let's err on the side of caution
Here you address a couple of interesting topics. I actually for a while had the theory that Thanes were not Dwarves; however, I seem to recall someone proving me wrong. The discussion was in this thread which is actually still quite interesting in the light of the discussion in this thread, and interestingly, reading through it, in the end, I don't find any convincing argument from that thread that Thanes are Dwarves. All I can see is that their description does not mention the word Dwarf. None-the-less, I seem to recall someone mentioning that one of the campaign storylines tells us that they are a clan among the Dwarves. Can anybody confirm this?
Sprites > This is another flimsy subject! It is easy to consider them actually part of the Elven race, but for all their looks, obviously, their not, as they have wings. The description tells us they are tree spirits, something which was enforced with the whole Druid Symbiosis thing. I think I'll make a thread on this whole phylogenetic issue, where we can really pull out our inner geek on this subject.
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What will happen now?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 10, 2008 07:30 PM |
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Second-posting here, sorry, gonna make this one brief.
Quote:
And if you like having 2 race-based creatures in the castle, I think we have reached a compromise.
Just to make it clear: I don't say 2 is enough in every town. Some towns like Elf, Human and Dwarf should have more. My point is that we should match the number to the race rather than holding it fixed at something specific. I think 3 units for Elf, 4 for Dark Elf and 5 for Human, for instance, works fine, as all these units come naturally and serve a relevant role in the line-up.
Quote:
Quote:
EDIT > Oh, and one more thing. I would like to address this:
Quote:
There are no repeats of creatures.
What is this repeat of creatures you're talking about?
Some perfect examples of repeats are the Defender and the Brawler, and the Warrior and the Slayer.
My point is simply that the only reason you see repeat is because you focus on the fact that they are same race. If you look at how they actually look, or what role they play in combat, these units are nothing like each other.
In the same way, you could say the Zombie is a repeat of the Skeleton (both melee units), the Squire is a repeat of the Peasant, or even the Skeleton is a repeat of the Peasant. You don't complain about those, because they are now integrated parts of the game (which means: Since Heroes 3 ), but there really is not much of a difference, sometimes we just gotta embrace the fact that things change a bit.
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What will happen now?
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 10, 2008 07:40 PM |
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Edited by Zazu1 at 19:48, 10 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
My point is simply that the only reason you see repeat is because you focus on the fact that they are same race. If you look at how they actually look, or what role they play in combat, these units are nothing like each other.
Well, I feel that these units look very similar because they are the same race. Basically the only difference is what they wear and what weapons they use. And they also play basically the same role in combat. The only difference between them is there stats.
Edit: I also want to point out their names. I think A5ado already mentioned this but I guess I'll just address this one more time. Defender!? Brawler?! Warrior?! Slayer!?.. wtf. What do these names tell you about the creature. Absolutely NOTHING. Well the defender must be some unit that defends something, the Brawler must be some unit that brawls? These should not be creature. If I tell you the creature is a dwarf, what do you think? Small, brawn, Big beard, carrying axe. Talks in a Scottish accent. Do you get what I'm saying?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 10, 2008 07:43 PM |
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Quote:
And they also play basically the same role in combat. The only difference between them is there stats.
Look at the unique abilities first...
what did the HOMM3 creatures do beside the 'stats'?
your arguments don't hold. Oh, and just because they "look similar" to you doesn't mean anything. An alien can disguise as a human, does that mean he is the same race?
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 10, 2008 07:58 PM |
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Quote:
what did the HOMM3 creatures do beside the 'stats'?
your arguments don't hold. Oh, and just because they "look similar" to you doesn't mean anything. An alien can disguise as a human, does that mean he is the same race?
Well, that is why I specifically said basically. One thing I very much like in heroes 5, is that every creature has unique abilities. But that only makes them unique in one aspect. And I don't quite understand your comment, An alien can disguise himself as a human, but there not the same as humans?? I would be perfectly fine with my line-up having yeti, chimera, wyrms, valkerie and the story would say that there all dwarves in disguise. It really wouldn't bother me.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 10, 2008 08:14 PM |
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Quote:
I would be perfectly fine with my line-up having yeti, chimera, wyrms, valkerie and the story would say that there all dwarves in disguise. It really wouldn't bother me.
See? You're not against 'races' you are against "looks" 
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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This thread is pages long: 
